In case you're saying "Stencyl is limited to fan games" ...

[haloOfTheSun]

Just because I used you as an example does not mean I'm talking specifically to you.

I have just as much right to defend Stencyl as you have to bash it.

I'm not bashing it. I can't because they won't even tell anyone what the program can do yet you still choose to believe that it's going to be amazing when you know nothing.

Neither of us really have enough information to have a decent debate/argument. I'm simply trying to report what has been said. I'm aware that they don't have any proof to back up their words, but I still choose to follow it because it interests me. I'm pretty sure I covered this in this post.

Firstly, I don't see anyone trying to make a relevant and intelligent argument by saying "well maybe they're lying". Those that are are just trolling or going along with what they perceive as popular (i.e. Stencyl "bashing"). Second, I do have enough proof to launch a decent debate. My proof is their lack of proof. I am debating you not on whether or not Stencyl will be a good program, but the fact that you all follow it blindly like it's going to be the greatest thing ever made, when, again, you have no idea what it's even capable of doing or how well it will even work. It interests you. Fine. Be interested. Follow what's happening, read the "updates" (lol they aren't a company btw). But don't defend it when someone points out a flaw as if we've insulted your mother. Again, this is not directly at you, even though you are doing that to an extent.

No, what Jon has told you is not tangible information because no proof has been provided.

I'm pretty sure I said all this in this post.

Congratulations. Way to miss the point. I'm not saying anyone is lying. That would be incredibly stupid if they were lying. What would they even have to lie about? Is it a possibility? Yes. What does this have to do with anything? Nothing. I said you have no tangible proof. I didn't say you were blindly following lies.

Their goals and intentions have changed greatly since the project started. They've removed the old Youtube videos that show fangames, they've removed all old screenshots, and they have turned their fan kit forums into single threads. It doesn't sound like they're trying to promote Stencyl as a fan game creator anymore.

OK so their promoted goals have changed and there are no screenshots or videos. That doesn't mean that it seems like Stencyl is limited to fangames. The only promoting they've done visually has been with creating fangames. All of their examples of what the program can do, that I've seen, has been of creating fangames. There's nothing really to debate over here. It's just bad promotion and advertising. But since they're seemingly changing so much of the program, perhaps when they do start advertising again, they'll do something besides show us Mario.

The reason they have no media up is clarified in this thread.

Nope, sorry. They've been secretive way longer than that. 1. They aren't a real company. A company is out for a profit. They are a commercial organization. It seems that they are legally an LLC, though I wouldn't be surprised if they're just claiming they are as many people in game making groups tend to do. 2. It all reeks of B.S. In the past they've acted like they've signed some non-disclosure agreement, now it's because they don't want anyone stealing their ideas. A load of crap.

I don't believe or disbelieve it.

You do. You say you're "interested" but if you didn't believe it you wouldn't get so worked up over all this.

In before "I'm not getting worked up. I'm very calm."

When I defend Stencyl, I'm using information they have told us. I've said this many times. It isn't fair to have your project bashed when people obviously don't know if the reason they're bashing it is relevant. I'm defending it the best way I can defend it, and that's by saying what the team has said. And as always, I recommend you ask the team for yourself. Even if you are bombarded with fanboys (which you won't be) you'll receive a good, well thought out answer from either Jon or Stephen.

It's not being bashed. You're missing the entire point.

I never argued against your opinions, but stating your opinions as if they are fact will end up with Stencyl being defended.

And stating your defenses as fact will never end anything until Stencyl provides more information, or more likely, released.

I told ahref to ask the team about this, yet he refused to. Compatibility errors is something the team hasn't commented on, and I couldn't try to answer. I said "SNIPPETS AREN'T SCRIPTING YOU JUST TAKE BITS OF SCRIPT AND PUT IT TOGETHER" after ahref said that we'll be scripting while using snippets. According to the team, you won't have to code anything to use snippets. So technically you AREN'T scripting, unless you're directly coding your own snippet.

But this is very likely to cause some compatibility issues. It would be like going out and collecting every script for rpg maker xp and putting them in your game and expecting it to work. Perhaps they are aware of this, I don't know. As you said they haven't mentioned anything about it. But maybe they're not. I'm willing to bet they're not.

You despise a program without even using it?, or seeing any footage of it?

I don't despise Stencyl because there's no reason to. I didn't word that very well. I started out with one thought but didn't finish it out and went into the next one. I meant to say "Which, even if there were no compatibility issues, it would be just another color-by-numbers program. I hate the piecing together snippets because it's just essentially color-by-numbers. etc." What I mean by this is it encourages less knowledge of your creative medium and stunts creative growth.

You aren't going to be bombarded by fanboys, unless you plan to say "WHERE DO I DOWNLOAD STENCYL, YOU NEED TO RELEASE IT." If you're capable of asking a decent question, you'll get a decent answer. The better the question, the better the answer you'll receive. I guarantee it.

I'll concede this point because I cannot locate my example. More likely the staff was intelligent enough to delete the fanboyish responses. But one cannot deny there is a sense of fanboyism here.

[ahref]

irock to amuse myself i have decided to ask the questions on the forums. youll hear back soon.

[RMXPokemaniac]

I have a question. How could something be limited to fan-games? Certainly, if a maker has all the elements needed to make a fan-game from the base up (well, maybe not the base... it's a game maker, after all), you could make plenty other games of that genre, no? And last time I checked, Stencyl wasn't even limited to a single genre. Even if the provided snippets weren't enough to make a great diversity of games, they would be expanded upon. Ever heard of RPG Maker? I'm guessing you have. Anyway, just take a look in the scripts section. How many of them were shipped with RMXP/VX?

[ahref]

unltimately its down to users. If too many users see that app and think IM GOING TO MAKE A GAME blindly then there gonna soon find out that they fail at one part of the game making process. So they borrow stuff from other people. This usually means they grab sprites from snes games thus turning their games into a fangame.

[Irock]

I'm not bashing it. I can't because they won't even tell anyone what the program can do yet you still choose to believe that it's going to be amazing when you know nothing.

I believe if Stencyl does what they claim it can do, then it will be a good program. You're making assumptions based on the fact that I'm interested in the project.

Second, I do have enough proof to launch a decent debate. My proof is their lack of proof. I am debating you not on whether or not Stencyl will be a good program, but the fact that you all follow it blindly like it's going to be the greatest thing ever made, when, again, you have no idea what it's even capable of doing or how well it will even work. But don't defend it when someone points out a flaw as if we've insulted your mother. Again, this is not directly at you, even though you are doing that to an extent.

Why does it bug you so much that people are excited about Stencyl? It's actually pretty fun following the project. We're not hurting anyone. I'll agree that it's annoying to see someone say "STENCYL IS GOING TO BE THE GREATEST FUCKING PROGRAM ON EARTH" especially since they haven't seen/used it, and those people need to die. A lot of us aren't like that, and you can see from this thread that no one has attacked ahref for discussing compatibility errors in snippets. Most sane people don't think Stencyl is going to be perfect, and can easily accept that.

No, what Jon has told you is not tangible information because no proof has been provided.

I'm pretty sure I said all this in this post.

Congratulations. Way to miss the point. I'm not saying anyone is lying. That would be incredibly stupid if they were lying. What would they even have to lie about? Is it a possibility? Yes. What does this have to do with anything? Nothing. I said you have no tangible proof. I didn't say you were blindly following lies.[/quote][/quote]Aww penis. I thought I said that Jon's word isn't proof, and it's common sense that someone's word doesn't prove something, in that post.

The reason they have no media up is clarified in this thread.

Nope, sorry. They've been secretive way longer than that. 1. They aren't a real company. A company is out for a profit. They are a commercial organization. It seems that they are legally an LLC, though I wouldn't be surprised if they're just claiming they are as many people in game making groups tend to do. 2. It all reeks of B.S. In the past they've acted like they've signed some non-disclosure agreement, now it's because they don't want anyone stealing their ideas. A load of crap.

So basically you're arguing that Jon could be lying?

You do. You say you're "interested" but if you didn't believe it you wouldn't get so worked up over all this.

In before "I'm not getting worked up. I'm very calm."

Err, seriously, I'm not worked up. I enjoy debating/discussing this with you. I'm not getting worked up. I'm very calm.

And stating your defenses as fact will never end anything until Stencyl provides more information, or more likely, released.

I wouldn't have to post any defense if people were capable of posting on the Stencyl forums, instead of relying on me for a response.

But this is very likely to cause some compatibility issues. It would be like going out and collecting every script for rpg maker xp and putting them in your game and expecting it to work. Perhaps they are aware of this, I don't know. As you said they haven't mentioned anything about it. But maybe they're not. I'm willing to bet they're not.

I never said that there wouldn't be compatibility issues. I'm not going to assume something until it's stated or proven.

I don't despise Stencyl because there's no reason to. I didn't word that very well. I started out with one thought but didn't finish it out and went into the next one. I meant to say "Which, even if there were no compatibility issues, it would be just another color-by-numbers program. I hate the piecing together snippets because it's just essentially color-by-numbers. etc." What I mean by this is it encourages less knowledge of your creative medium and stunts creative growth.

It's going to take some creative thinking to create some things with snippets. You COULD combine two battle systems together and say you made it, which obviously isn't very creative. On the other hand, Stencyl gives you the ability to be very creative. Combining thousands of little tiny bits of code and making a giant battle system, is pretty creative. I've seen very creative things made with RPG Maker's event systems. If Stencyl is giving you an endless number of events, then that gives you a hell of a lot larger oppertunity to be creative than just about every game creation program out there.

I'll concede this point because I cannot locate my example. More likely the staff was intelligent enough to delete the fanboyish responses. But one cannot deny there is a sense of fanboyism here.

There's obviously fanboyism everywhere on the internet. That's something you can't escape. The only people that are attacked are the really idiotic ones.

unltimately its down to users. If too many users see that app and think IM GOING TO MAKE A GAME blindly then there gonna soon find out that they fail at one part of the game making process. So they borrow stuff from other people. This usually means they grab sprites from snes games thus turning their games into a fangame.

I can't argue that that this won't happen, but you're going to find that with every program. I'm not really interested in the games that will be made, I'm mainly interested in the program itself.

[ahref]

There are ways around

Quote from: ahref on April 18, 2008, 05:17:54 PM
unltimately its down to users. If too many users see that app and think IM GOING TO MAKE A GAME blindly then there gonna soon find out that they fail at one part of the game making process. So they borrow stuff from other people. This usually means they grab sprites from snes games thus turning their games into a fangame.

[Nightwolf]

What does stencyl claim to do, Irock? It claims to be limited to fan games?

I can't because they won't even tell anyone what the program can do yet you still choose to believe that it's going to be amazing when you know nothing.

BEST LINE EVER

[Tezuka]

The information (or should I say the lack of it) seems to be rather strange. I find it odd that after all this time it has been in development, their is no solid proof that Stencyl actually exists.

Now apprently they have moved into "stealth mode" which disallows them from disclosing any information AT ALL.

Also, to be honest, I think the soul purpose of this was to create fan games. Sure, it can be used for original projects, but don't you think they made those game packs with fan game creation in mind?

[Irock]

The information (or should I say the lack of it) seems to be rather strange. I find it odd that after all this time it has been in development, their is no solid proof that Stencyl actually exists.

Now apprently they have moved into "stealth mode" which disallows them from disclosing any information AT ALL.

Also, to be honest, I think the soul purpose of this was to create fan games. Sure, it can be used for original projects, but don't you think they made those game packs with fan game creation in mind?

Stencyl was originally just a Mario level editor. It then moved on to a game creation program which you needed to know Java to create a original game. Today they're creating a game creation program that anyone can create an original game from. Their intentions have certainly changed a lot, but I'm sure they would disappoint some people if they removed the kits.

[Sophist]

The information (or should I say the lack of it) seems to be rather strange. I find it odd that after all this time it has been in development, their is no solid proof that Stencyl actually exists.

Now apprently they have moved into "stealth mode" which disallows them from disclosing any information AT ALL.

Also, to be honest, I think the soul purpose of this was to create fan games. Sure, it can be used for original projects, but don't you think they made those game packs with fan game creation in mind?

Stencyl was originally just a Mario level editor. It then moved on to a game creation program which you needed to know Java to create a original game. Today they're creating a game creation program that anyone can create an original game from. Their intentions have certainly changed a lot, but I'm sure they would disappoint some people if they removed the kits.

Well duh, only retards wouldn't want to put time into making their own game. If you create a program like this and don't add any preset graphics, will it be as popular?

No.

Also thanks for the history lesson Irock, it still doesn't change anything.

[Irock]

The information (or should I say the lack of it) seems to be rather strange. I find it odd that after all this time it has been in development, their is no solid proof that Stencyl actually exists.

Now apprently they have moved into "stealth mode" which disallows them from disclosing any information AT ALL.

Also, to be honest, I think the soul purpose of this was to create fan games. Sure, it can be used for original projects, but don't you think they made those game packs with fan game creation in mind?

Stencyl was originally just a Mario level editor. It then moved on to a game creation program which you needed to know Java to create a original game. Today they're creating a game creation program that anyone can create an original game from. Their intentions have certainly changed a lot, but I'm sure they would disappoint some people if they removed the kits.

Well duh, only retards wouldn't want to put time into making their own game. If you create a program like this and don't add any preset graphics, will it be as popular?

No.

Also thanks for the history lesson Irock, it still doesn't change anything.

I was responding to where Tezuka said "I think the soul purpose of this was to create fan games." There's nothing to change.

[Nightwolf]

Learn Java
Master Stencyl
Copy Fan game ideas

Work on stencyl
Make a shitty fan game

[ahref]

Stencyl's "Snippets" allow you to create whatever 2D idea you have.

what ideas do the average joe who wants to make a game have? NONE they just want to copy the latest thing.

No ideas = fan games.

[Irock]

Stencyl's "Snippets" allow you to create whatever 2D idea you have.

what ideas do the average joe who wants to make a game have? NONE they just want to copy the latest thing.

No ideas = fan games.

There are barley any fangames compared to the amount of original ideas.

[Malson]

Ideas do not make a game. If that were the case, RMRK would be flooded with them.

[haloOfTheSun]

There are barley any fangames compared to the amount of original ideas.

Funny how the first thread there is one asking about a Sonic kit. There are also several topics about other fangame-related material.

[Nightwolf]

Ideas do not make a game. If that were the case, RMRK would be flooded with them.

Yes, you need to have the skill and all. If you wanna make a mega platformer but you don't have skills or help, then you'll just end up making Mario from the SONIC KIT :O

[Irock]

There are barley any fangames compared to the amount of original ideas.

Funny how the first thread there is one asking about a Sonic kit. There are also several topics about other fangame-related material.

Did you read my post? I said, "There are barley any fangames compared to the amount of original ideas."

The point is, there are more original ideas than fangame ideas.

[Tezuka]

I'm not trying to be mean, but is their any proof that this actually exists? I mean the engine itself, not a game demo that was apparently made in Stencyl?

[ahref]

Ideas do not make a game. If that were the case, RMRK would be flooded with them.

When i mention ideas i mean more then just this is how the game should work. i supose i mean ideals.

However the script sections are full of ideas .

Also:
http://forums.stencyl.com/showthread.php?tid=4047

so now they have NO MEDIA,NO ADVERTISING. Wtf are they playing about with.

pics/news or its never gonna happen.

[RMXPokemaniac]

Yes, Stencyl is very real. Ask any of the beta testers.

Anyway... why is this even still going on? Nobody has any grounds to fight upon... so why fight? Just wait and see.

[Tezuka]

Nobody has any grounds to fight upon...

Exactly, their is nothing to say that Stencyl exists or not, but when their is no proof that it exists (Which is what it looks like now), people will assume that it will never happen/be released. I'm doubting about the existance of Stencyl as well.

Ask any of the beta testers.

They can easily lie.


I am not trying to be mean here, but Stencyl's existance seems questionable.

[Irock]

Arguing when your only evidence is the lack of evidence is pointless. Nobody disagrees that it's a possibility that Stencyl doesn't exist.

No more arguing over Stencyl's existence. It's a fucking stupid argument.

[Tezuka]

Good point well made.

I'll stop now.

[Malson]

Arguing when your only evidence is the lack of evidence is pointless. Nobody disagrees that it's a possibility that Stencyl doesn't exist.

No more arguing over Stencyl's existence. It's a fucking stupid argument.

It wasn't about Stencyl's existence in the first place. It was about Stencyl's usefulness as a game creation program, and how it seems geared towards fan games.

There are barley any fangames compared to the amount of original ideas.

Oh really? If you're trying to make that point on RMRK, you ought to take a look at what RMRK's been saying.

Stencyl is geared primarily towards fan games, proven by Stencyl's less-than-revealing advertisement policy and the members of our very own forum. Nothing you say can or will prove otherwise, as it's Stencyl's job to do that. That's the point everyone's been trying to make for the past 5 pages.