God and Hell.

They say logic belongs to man, but let them prove it if they can.

EDIT : Also, just because you don't have proof of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I can go to a remote island and tell the people the dollar exists. They won't believe me just because I didn't bring one with me, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Nicely dodged. Also, yeah, this does kind of belong in intelligent debate, and so far the debating has been (to some extent) intelligent.

I'll keep a close eye on it, and I'm sure gilga and halo will.

Hang on, what makes them worthless.

Because they aren't based in fact. Prove anything you've said about evolution.

The faith part was refering to your question about the Bible being trustworthy.

Then don't expect us to side with you, because "just knowing" dosen't help anyone. If you said "I just know it!" in a class you would be laughed out of the room.

Even secular scientists have said that evolution is highly improbable. I explained why it can't be true in an earlier post.

No you didn't, and no they haven't.

http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?page=article&id=590

http://www.carm.org/evolution/evodds.htm

http://bioinfo.med.utoronto.ca/Evolution_by_Accident/Evolution_by_Accident.html

These are just 3 I found in 30 seconds of searching Yahoo!.

:/

EDIT : Looking for better examples. (First two are Christian, second is for evolution *i think*. It's hard to tell lol)

EDIT 2 : I'm too tired to look them up right now. The first two (even though Christian which will most likely make them worthless in your eyes :/ ) explain what I attempted to say.

I think this should me moved immediately.

For these I will just link you to the appropriate Talkorigins page.

http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?page=article&id=590

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB101.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB040.html

http://www.carm.org/evolution/evodds.htm

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB101.html

http://bioinfo.med.utoronto.ca/Evolution_by_Accident/Evolution_by_Accident.html

I think you need to look at that one a little closer.

You have to consider the time in which the Bible was written. What do you think people would do to a person who would have propagated evolution, bacteria, atoms, etc. They would have think of him to be crazy. The Bible is written in a metaphorical language so even the most simple (and maybe most stupid...) human can understand. In the Bible it's not important how complex the process of evolution was or how the universe was exactly created. The only thing that important is, is that God created it. A good example is the story of Banishing from Eden: adam means "men" and eva means "mothers" (I think...) on hebreic. The entire Old Testament is metaphoric.
The Bible doesn't contradict the evolution, it just doesn't explain it either.

@Nightwolf: It's always easier to imagine God to actually have one sex, because of the reason I have just written above:

metaphorical language so even the most simple (and maybe most stupid...) human can understand

I can't help but read this shit and feel sick. People like Tsuno disgust me. How can anyone hold such conviction for a fantasy? So many people are obsessed with this intangible imaginary entity that they call their god. Try taking your head out of the clouds for a minute and look at the world with your own eyes. Think with you own mind. You speak of god lifting your burdens, but I say god IS the burden. Everywhere you go you take him with you. He tells you what to do or what to think. Why would you do this?  How could anyone prefer the word of god to independence? Are you too scared, too incompetent to face the world youself? Do you need this shield called god to blind you? I don't think I'll ever understand, but it disgusts me either way.

Maybe you will disgust me to, along with one of our best scripters. Its not fantasy its simple truth. God exist. Our head is not imagining things in the clouds, we know that this has happened. God Does not lift our burderns, he helps us fight them. If we do bad we get bad yet God tries to reduce the bad we get. God IS NOT burden, he is support. WE are not scared to fight all as God helps who helps themselves. God is not a sheild, or we;d never get anything bad, He is a support to help us. I dont think youd ever understand this theory that God is better than our best friend.

YEs BLIZZARD I AGREE WITH YOU BUT ID USe genDER.


and..
to prove it( that God Exists), all of you mustve heard about the Ramayan(a)( for you ppl). In It there is a part where they write Gods name on a heavy rock which floats on water.
 Famous american scientists have researched that one the bottom on the sea rocks are found with the same God's name. They tested them and they floated.


Beat that.

And im talking bout bolders, fully checked, big heave bolders.

Nightwolf: Cite your sources. If the rocks float, why were they at the bottom of the sea?

I agree with what Blizzard said. The whole thing is written in metaphor. The problem is when people mindlessly believe it and take it literally- then you get all those crazy fundies.

The problem is when people mindlessly believe it and take it literally- then you get all those crazy fundies.

And these "religions" are called sects. Sects usually take a part of the Bible and just interprete it how they like it. It's blasphemy...

@Gilga: God is not a burden just like Nightwolf said. I our eyes, God is hope. I understand if you can't believe in God for some reason, but you have to admit there HAS TO be something that created the universe. I might have killed itself, it might not, it might have done who knows what, but there has to be an origin. Christianity simply calls this reason "God" and believes, it is not random, but has a consciousness. I can't remember who once said: "If God didn't exist, I would have been a good idea to make him up." and he might be right. But the point is that there is nothing bad about believing in God.
It's incredible how Jesus' words were universal. You can take any time, any situation, any possible possiblity and if you listen to what he said, you will realize "Yes... that actually is right." For example: (Don't worry, I'm not gonna recite the Bible here, I even never read it...) He put the 10 commandments into just two. Here is the shortest version:
1. Love God above all with all your heart, with all your soul
2. Love your next as you love yourself
(it might be wrong written, because it's directly translated from Croatian, but you should get the point)
They point of these is order. Creating order where humans fail. Even if God is just a lie, he has given hope to the world.

Nightwolf: Cite your sources. If the rocks float, why were they at the bottom of the sea?

YOu know that was like in the 1st century, and BTW lets say if you're living right now why will u die after some years?

Nightwolf, it's still possible to cite just do a Wikipedia search or a Yahoo search or a Dogpile one. Don't bother with google unless you want porn instead.

EDIT : Looking for better examples. (First two are Christian, second is for evolution *i think*. It's hard to tell lol)

Not when there are ads for The Blind Watchmaker on the side.

EDIT 2 : I'm too tired to look them up right now. The first two (even though Christian which will most likely make them worthless in your eyes :/ ) explain what I attempted to say.

And the links I provided refute them. Explore the TalkOrigins site a bit.

EDIT: what makes them worthless is that they are wrong.

You have to consider the time in which the Bible was written. What do you th
ink people would do to a person who would have propagated evolution, bacteria, atoms, etc.

There was a theory of atoms that existed at that time. I'm sure I could find Greek thinkers who spoke of something similar to evolution and bacteria.

The Bible is written in a metaphorical language so even the most simple (and maybe most stupid...) human can understand.

how many people believe that? And what was the metaphor behind, say, Noah's Ark?

In the Bible it's not important how complex the process of evolution was or how the universe was exactly created. The only thing that important is, is that God created it.

Not according to millions upon millions of people.

The Bible doesn't contradict the evolution, it just doesn't explain it either.

The Bible says that fruit bearing plants were created before fish. If this is a metaphor, it is an inaccurate one.

to prove it( that God Exists), all of you mustve heard about the Ramayan(a)( for you ppl). In It there is a part where they write Gods name on a heavy rock which floats on water.
 Famous american scientists have researched that one the bottom on the sea rocks are found with the same God's name. They tested them and they floated.


Beat that.

And im talking bout bolders, fully checked, big heave bolders.

1) Prove it.
2) If it is some sort of porous volcanic rock then your story is worthless.
3) Write God's name on a rock and put it in your bathtub.

YOu know that was like in the 1st century,

I didn't know there were Americans in the 1st century.

and BTW lets say if you're living right now why will u die after some years?

Wow, wait, are you serious?

And these "religions" are called sects. Sects usually take a part of the Bible and just interprete it how they like it. It's blasphemy...

Yeah, that's not what you're doing at all!

I understand if you can't believe in God for some reason, but you have to admit there HAS TO be something that created the universe.

Why?

Christianity simply calls this reason "God" and believes, it is not random, but has a consciousness.

There is no proof of this consciousness existing except in te minds of people who "just know".

But the point is that there is nothing bad about believing in God.

Believing in something that isn't real is harmful.

It's incredible how Jesus' words were universal. You can take any time, any situation, any possible possiblity and if you listen to what he said, you will realize "Yes... that actually is right."

11 So he said to them, "Whoever  divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. 12 And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."

Straight form my Gideon Bible.

Even if God is just a lie, he has given hope to the world.

But it is a false hope.

By the way, here's another favorite of mine:

And he said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you yhat there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.

And this one makes me laugh every time:

63 now the men who held Jesus mocked Him and beat Him. 64 And having blindfolded Him, they struck Him on the face and asked Him, saying: "Prophesy! Who is the one who struck You?"

(all quotes are by JH, except wiki's !_! )

There was a theory of atoms that existed at that time. I'm sure I could find Greek thinkers who spoke of something similar to evolution and bacteria.

In the late fifth century BC...

The Bible was started to be written 1000 B.C. Also The hebrew folk didn't have any contact even quite some time after the late 5th century B.C.. God is not science. People wanted to know how everything was created, so the invented science. SCIENCE is the thing that is supposed to explain the Genesis, not God. As I already said in the other topic, if God would give us everything we want, then what sense would life have?!
Also I said so even the most stupid human could understand it. Find one person with an IQ of 50 or lower and explain him what an atom is. Now explain him tell him there is a God who created everything. What do you think how he will react?

how many people believe that? And what was the metaphor behind, say, Noah's Ark?

I don't know what Metophor is behind Noah's Ark, how could I? Didn't I say, I haven't read the Bible?!

The Bible says that fruit bearing plants were created before fish. If this is a metaphor, it is an inaccurate one.

[sarcasm]Oh, in the Bible is exactly written how plants slowly turned into fish? I didn't know that.[/sarcasm] If you didn't know, fish also breathe. Plants were first on earth, they created O₂ out of C0₂, the water absorbed some of it due to diffusion. AFTER these events, fish had something to breathe and could start to evolve.

Yeah, that's not what you're doing at all!

And what exactly have I said different than just the entire Christianity?

Why?

You've already had Physic classes? If yes, you should be able to recall this here. I mean this part:

Energy is a conserved quantity, meaning that it cannot be created or destroyed, but only converted from one form into another. Thus, the total energy of the universe always remains constant.

So if it can't be created or destroyed, there has to be an origin as the universe wasn't existant for eternity, it is about 13.7 billion years old. Again, check wiki if you don't believe me.

Believing in something that isn't real is harmful.

Prove that he doesn't exist then.

It's incredible how Jesus' words were universal. You can take any time, any situation, any possible possiblity and if you listen to what he said, you will realize "Yes... that actually is right."

Erm, you have quoted that part, but there's nothing below it... >.<

But it is a false hope.

Again, I tell you prove that it's false.

I have a Q.

Why does the bible never talk about dinosaurs? So if you say god made the world did he put the massive bones of dinosaurs in the ground to play a trick on us?

So did it happen like this?

-Dinosaurs born
-they die
-god makes Adam and Eeve 

I have a Q.

Why does the bible never talk about dinosaurs? So if you say god made the world did he put the massive bones of dinosaurs in the ground to play a trick on us?

So did it happen like this?

-Dinosaurs born
-they die
-god makes Adam and Eeve 

First, almost every religion will tell you the story of Adam and Eve aren't really true, like most of the Old Testament, and are just ways to help people understand. There are some religions, though, that think this was a true story, and that the Garden of Eden is actually Heaven (or even sometimes Purgatory), and after they were cast out, they were sent to Earth. =\

Secondly, as far as Catholocism and other Christian religions go, no... they never explain dinosaurs let alone mention them. Convenient, eh? Most likely, it was because when the Bible was written, the existance of dinosaurs was unknown, yet today these religions don't give any theory about how it happened, except that it happened.

EDIT: This is fairly typical though. Look in the Bible, and you'll find many things that aren't explained today, or are just ingored. (i.e. using the bathroom is a sin, yet today it most certainly isn't considered so. The common rebuttal to this is the quote from the Bible [I'm not sure where] that "Anything held true on Earth will be held true in Heaven", or something to that effect. Meaning, if the church deems something is ok, then that will be how you are judged when you die.) So, it's basically their failsafe against being wrong at any point in time.

Nightwolf: Cite your sources. If the rocks float, why were they at the bottom of the sea?

YOu know that was like in the 1st century, and BTW lets say if you're living right now why will u die after some years?

So...because it was the first century...the density of the rock was affected so that somehow they were able to float?

Eventually, we all die just because our bodies are worn out. Our hearts get weak and stop pumping blood. Or we get sick and our system shuts down. Or we get killed by an outside source in the name of religion

Nightwolf, I'd say that I'm not alone here in not knowing what in the world your point is, or even what half of your post is supposed to mean. 

I think he was trying to imply that God is why we die.

the floating rock could have been pummus. the remains of volcano rock... tht floats.

He said it was a "heavy" rock, so I'm thinking he wasn't talking about volcanic rock :/

If god is all perfect non-evil then how did he create evil.

Lol blizzard "prove he doesn't exist then"

I'm going to jail soon, cause, guilty until proven innocent.

I prove something does not exist, if it really does sort of, well, not exist? That fact is the proof itelf ?_?

Or, to put it another way, I could say there's a flying spaghetti monster. You can't prove that it DOESN'T exist, so does that mean it exists?