Christian Topic Be warned

~~~~~

Oh my, well said, and I'm not just saying that because of the compliment.

Very well put out and I enjoyed reading it, just don't worry about the:

Ok, don't kill me guys---  Don't hate me for saying this

Most, or at least a lot of people in the debate section are Atheist and even if they weren't you shouldn't have to worry about being rejected for not being religious, in any situation. If people want to be fascist and attack you for being an Atheist, the shame is on them not you. 

There is nothing written in the Bible by the hand of God or Jesus... For the Bible to proclaim it's self as the word of God is the biggest crock of shite ever...

I have read a fair amount of the Bible... I would preffer a pop-up book version, it would make the stories suite the target audience better, it's nothing but kids stories strung together.

I remember the Christians used to lynch people for saying the world was round at one stage.

Every time they get proven wrong, the bible's interpretation then changes... You can read the darn book however you like, it's rubbish.

     Religion - a set of beliefs
     Beliefs -    confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof, to suppose, think
     Opinion - a belief based on grounds insufficient to prove certianty

     There you have it: religion=beliefs=something you have confidence in despite lack of proof. Therefore, religions are opinionated, and everything everyone has said in this thread is correct because it is their opinion, aka your religion. Your religion is your opinion on life. I'm just stating mine.


Also, check out this church:
   http://www.venganza.org/

According to my logic, they are correct as well, because their church is their opinion, and an opinion is never incorrect (except in English class.) Hooray for Pastafarianism.

Hmm, I think that your definition for belief is incorrect. A belief is a confidence that a statement is true. Verifiability is not really important. You can believe in gravity as much as you can believe that aliens exist. OED states belief as:

Mental acceptance of a proposition, statement, or fact, as true, on the ground of authority or evidence; assent of the mind to a statement, or to the truth of a fact beyond observation, on the testimony of another, or to a fact or truth on the evidence of consciousness; the mental condition involved in this assent. Constr. of a statement, or (obs.) a speaker; that...; belief in (a thing); persuasion of its existence.

Code: [Select]

assent of the mind to a statement, or to the truth of a fact beyond observation, on the testimony of another

is the one that I commonly defined belief to be

That doesn't really matter though. I think it is illogical to believe "Pastafarianism" is a religion though. It is a mockery of religion (a poor one, but a mockery nonetheless). The only unified opinion in it is disdain for religion, since nobody who holds to it actually believe any of it (and why would anybody? It's like trying to make a bull less fearsome by setting up a kitten as an example of your typical bull). In any case, I am surprised that the atheists of the forum aren't up in arms about you saying that disdain for religion is a religion.

I don't know why I'm posting here, I don't really care anyway. Have fun, play nice boys & girls.

In any case, I am surprised that the atheists of the forum aren't up in arms about you saying that disdain for religion is a religion.

*points to herself, to the quote, and back to herself again.*
          Wait, why am I up in arms?

    I normally like to view a "religion" as a way of life just because that's how I prefer to think of it, but I guess most people will define a religion as a belief in a supernatural being, not just a belief on life (though the two go hand in hand according to many people.) Atheism isn't the hatred of religions, it's the disbelief of religious ideas.

Of course it isn't a hatred for religion. I was just saying that I have found that many atheists dislike aspects of their life being viewed as religion, and would be quick to point out that subscribing to Pastafarianism or propogating it or whatever (not believing in it, but proclaiming to believe it as a political statement attempting to demonstrate religious people are stupid) is not a religious activity. In other words, and in my previous words, disdain for religion is not itself a religion. I was just surprised that no atheists got upset when you suggested that. Since the only actual belief in FlyingSpaghettiMonsterism is an opinion that there is no God and that belief in God is silly, you calling it a religion was saying that this belief: "there is no God and that belief in God is silly" a religious belief.

Most atheists I have met get upset upon the suggestion that that belief constitutes a religious belief. You seem to be an exception. Of course, atheism is not a religion, but if you ever want to make an atheist angry, a general rule is to say atheism is a religion. It's really quite fun actually.

Anyway, that is all I was saying about that. I think it is false to consider Pastafarianism a religion. But I guess that's just a difference between my usage of the term and yours.

(not believing in it, but proclaiming to believe it as a political statement attempting to demonstrate religious people are stupid)

Religious people are far from stupid, they can be misguided, mislead and pretty much misunderstood.

Most people adopt a religion when they have nothing... those who find religion are usually those who have committed the most Sin... I fear the Jesus army, most are ex-drug addicts and criminals... Some ex-mental patients in my local town.

Not saying all religious people fit into this category, just pointing out that the fanatics are the ones doing religion no favours.

These people want salvation so much it kind of scares me... I invited two into my home the other week gave them tea and pretty much physco anaylzed them... The two I came across had more issues than playboy.

Every coin has a flip side.

even though im firmly catholic i dont really belive in heaven i think when you died you slowly stop existing all your sense leave until you just cease to exist

In a universe of infinite possibilities with all it's splendor and clock work like workings I think there has to be more after death.

I just don't think of that afterlife as a biblical one.

Alright, lets see if I can say this correctly.. 
Say you were to go to heaven and it was all happy and fun.
It wouldn't take too much of eternity for you to get bored. Therefor, heaven must get
better and better. Eternal enlightening.
Hell would have to be the opposite, like a line with arrows going opposite directions.
That whole equal and opposite reaction law.
So hell would have to get worse constantly. Darker and darker, more and more pain. Forever.
I believe people start on their end of the line from the time they are born, and it follows them for eternity.
Kind of like in Star Wars where they say "Once you start down the dark path, forever shall it dominate your destiny."

....so...your saying  Christian's are like  jedis...


Also no grave digging.

I believe that in hell, you eternally burn, and you don't die, because you already did

....so...your saying  Christian's are like  jedis...

Lol, if only...
I do like a lot of the qoutes from the StarWars trilogy. (The orrigional)
I actually saw a church handing out pamphlets using StarWars qoutes.
Every other sentance... and they called the force God.
And since movies are involved now, might I bring up The Matrix?
A lot of great stuff in there. They actually take a lot of their ideas not so much
from Christianity as they do anchient Gnostics.

Sumerian's made many clay tablets telling the same stories the Bible does a few Thousand years later... Many of the Bibles stories are taken from other cultures from different era's.  It's nice having all those stories translated and in one place of reference, but essentially it's not the Gospel of Christianity is a bit of a jumble sale of stories.

I have very little time for preachers or door knockers quoting the Bible to me.

I have taken the parts of the Bible I think could have been true and used them to give me a rough picture of who Jesus was, not who he was for sure... nobody ever knows somebody by reading accounts of them from someone Else's perspective... Even if you read an Autobiography it's only the parts of that persons life they choose to write about.

That's all the Bible is...

I do find it fascinating, parts of it that is... I hate the "And He Be Got, him and she Be Got Her and He Be Got Him" Stuff... But other than that it's a Good short story book, well worth a skip read some time.

I was raised Anglican, but I'm now my own. I think of Heaven and Hell in a planar sense. In the center you have a thick forest, with thorns and such. To the left is hell which is an inhospitable arid desert. To the right is heaven, rolling golden fields with a stream of water through the middle. You start at the bottom as a newborn and shift into the appropriate direction each time you make a decision. If you sin, you have to fight your way through difficulties to get back to heavens side. Although if you only sin and/or commit great sin, you fall off the cliffs of hell into the chasm at the edge, forever trapped here on earth with no hope for resurrection and rebirth. At the end you flow through the rivers mentioned in Inferno (Dante Alighieri). Styx to clear your memories, Phlegethon to burn your flesh and bone, and Cocytus to be frozen until you need to be reborn to keep the world going. Also If to many children are called for, their souls aren't human, their space is filled with either a demon or an angel.

Alright, I'm gonna come in state my opinion and leave.

1. Heaven is real and so is Hell
2. I'm Christian, so I believe the main thing that gets you to Heaven or Hell is wether you accept Christ.
3. Once you are sent somewhere, you stay there.

I'm done.

Yes, old reply.  But I am just going to say why I do not agree with you.  Basically, you are saying that whoever does not accept Christ as their savior, is not allowed in Heaven, whether that person is good or bad?  So if this person from a far away land who knows nothing about Christianity, but is a really good person, helps others by will and lives a respectable life, they will still not go to Heaven, unless they say "I accept Christ as my savior"?  Only for ignorance?  Sorry, but no.  And guess what?  That is the main reason why I quit religion.  The belief that only those who know of Christ's existence and accept it as truth will go to Heaven is quite ignorant.  It says that you must exclude anyone who is not Christian.  That whoever does not believe in Christianity is a bad person.  Ask to yourself how many people in the world do not know about God's teachings within Christianity.  So many millions are going to Hell just for ignorance?  No, thank you.

I believe in a GOD, not in a doctrine, aka a religion.  A religion, a set of rules and statements that could easily be a lie.  Do not forget, the Bible was written by humans.  Humans are what?  No where near perfect beings.  None of us are free of sin, none of us have never made a mistake.  The Bible is too old to be accurate, for several simple reasons: first, man is full of mistakes; second, anyone could interpret the Bible differently from their neighbor; third, it has been translated, edited and altered countless times through history, by different people with different interests.  And so on.  Do not believe a book just because you are told to do so.  Find the truth on your own.
The Bible is always nice for a good read, good advice.  But is not to be taken fully literally.  Be careful.

The God I believe in, loves us all, as a father.  He watches over all of us with the same eyes.  My God does not divide his children into groups.  My God gives second chances.  My God forgives.  My God is intelligent, wise, tolerant.  My God knows no hypocrisy.  My God is full of TRUE love.

As for the Heaven/Hell idea,  I don't think there is a "Hell" as we know it.  If we go somewhere after we die, I am hoping that all of us will have a chance to be there, together, in the same place.  Where hell is, in my opinion?  Probably here, on Earth.  We all taste it sometime.  We taste bits of Hell throughout our life.  Hell is different for all of us.  We all lose something.  We all cry, and we all wish we were someone else at some point.  Even if for a second.  We all taste Hell on Earth.

And lastly, saying that you accept Christ is nothing.  It only has any value if you live for those words.  I have met countless people in my life who claim to be Christians, yet they contradict their own supposed beliefs every day by doing exactly what they are told not to do.  Like, ahem... Having sex outside marriage?  So they are Christians and accept Christ within their Christian communities, but they live like non-Christians around the rest of the world.  How Christian is that?  Do they go to Heaven only for saying they accept Christ and going to Church every Sunday?  It's like temporary amnesia, right?

And yes, I am done with my speech.  Laugh if you don't like it. 

That's... a very powerful post.
*Leventhan doesn't laugh.*


I also agree that we don't get to heaven in term of how active we are in church, but on how we act.

@Arwym - I'm going to be blunt. That's a pretty weak reason to leave Christianity. No human being is good. As for people not even hearing the Gospel, that's why we're called to preach to ALL nations. Chances are they've heard of Christianity before, even if it's been misinterpreted.

"they will still not go to Heaven, unless they say "I accept Christ as my savior"?"

Satan can say that and not go to Hell. It's not the words. You can say that all you want, but unless you make a concious decision to follow Christ, then there will be no conversion in that person's life. If you mean Christians who sin a lot, if there's no conviction, chances are they either weren't saved to begin with, or they have become numb to the sin. A Christian can sin. All people sin. Being Christian doesn't change that fact. Now does it mean Christians should sin? Absolutely not, but God knows we're not perfect and He forgives us.

Another thing, they may not have heard the Gospel, but if they call out to God, God will find a way to reveal Himself to them.

I'll tell you another thing, my God the Christian God, "...watches over all of us with the same eyes.  My God does not divide his children into groups.  My God gives second chances.  My God forgives.  My God is intelligent, wise, tolerant.  My God knows no hypocrisy.  My God is full of TRUE love.
"

@Arwym - I'm going to be blunt. That's a pretty weak reason to leave Christianity. No human being is good. As for people not even hearing the Gospel, that's why we're called to preach to ALL nations. Chances are they've heard of Christianity before, even if it's been misinterpreted.

I did not say that was my only reason, Tsunokiette.  I said it was one of them.  I have many others.  And my point is that religion can be blind and intolerant.  I consider myself a believer of God, not an atheist.

I'll tell you another thing, my God the Christian God, "...watches over all of us with the same eyes.  My God does not divide his children into groups.  My God gives second chances.  My God forgives.  My God is intelligent, wise, tolerant.  My God knows no hypocrisy.  My God is full of TRUE love.
"

Yes, that is how God is supposed to be.  Like I described Him. But you see, Christians contradict themselves all the time.  Why?  Because a tolerant God, full of love, who watches over ALL of us, would not criticize homosexuals, witches, people of other religions, and so on.  Yet this people, who claim to represent God on Earth, do the contrary.  Does that make sense to you? 

Satan can say that and not go to Hell. It's not the words. You can say that all you want, but unless you make a concious decision to follow Christ, then there will be no conversion in that person's life. If you mean Christians who sin a lot, if there's no conviction, chances are they either weren't saved to begin with, or they have become numb to the sin. A Christian can sin. All people sin. Being Christian doesn't change that fact. Now does it mean Christians should sin? Absolutely not, but God knows we're not perfect and He forgives us.
Another thing, they may not have heard the Gospel, but if they call out to God, God will find a way to reveal Himself to them.

If you read well, that is exactly what I said.  People insisting in that they are Christians just because that is the image they project.  They say some things, go to Church, supposedly make good actions.  But all lies in the intention, what comes from the heart.  You do not need to officially accept God in order to be a good person.  You do not need to be Christian to deserve Heaven.  My point is that you cannot pretend to be Christian in only some aspects of Christianity and life.  You are either a full Christian, or not a Christian.  Same goes with any other religion.  Most modern Christians or religious people accept only those parts of their doctrine that are convenient to them. 

Like I said, I am either a full Christian, or not a Christian.  Since I cannot accept all the teachings of Christianity, I decided not be in any religion at all, and instead follow my own heart.  I will do what I know is right.  I will be a good person without having to go to a Church, which is, to me, just a formality.  "Good people" are not born from going to temples or from reading sacred books.  They are born from life, and from their own hearts.

Please, do not tell me all of this, because I know it.  I was Catholic for 17 years.  I went to Church, listened, read the Bible, had my first Communion, helped other children to understand God, and even accepted Christ as my savior.  I really tried.  There was a time when I believed blindly in everything I was told.  I have opened my mind.  Religion is not my answer.  I can have a God outside religion.  Religion is not the same as faith.  I have studied the subject, read history, talked to other Christians of different groups.  I know what I am talking about.

Those are my beliefs.  I am not going to convince you of anything.  Believe whatever makes you feel complete and at peace.  That is supposed to be the importance of religion, after all.

Thanks, though.

Religion is stupid. I'll follow my own beliefs, thanks.

I haven't really read the thread but although I accept the possibility of a higher power, I think alternate planes of existence are best left to fantasy novels.

Pocketplane of Air ftw.

AHere watch this:- http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=SfFjKzP3rHg

Er. I didn't read the whole way through the topic. I'm a Christian of no real division. Except the division that thinks dividing the Church was a poor move. But in reply to the first post..

At Soul Survivor this year, Mike Pilavachi (look him up, he's awesome), said something along the lines of, that all the people who've died awaiting to go to Heaven are waiting with Abraham still, for Jesus to come back. When he does they'll be allowed into Heaven. But, here's the thing, they're not really aiting becase time doesn't exist where they are.

Also, Lake of Sulfur, not Lake of Fire, I heard

It might be sacreligious also, but what proof is their that our Christ was in fact our savior, and not our Malefactor. Could hell be our destined heavan, and the weakness The gospels preach our pathway to demise?

..Er, yeah. Sure. Nobody evil would have died to bear our sins for us. I wouldn't call somewhere like Hell a paradise though, which is what is promised to us. Good deeds wouldn't, REALLY, give us a bad name with Heaven's books, eh.

Interesting point of view you've got, though.