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The Great Judging Debate 2014 Edition

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Spoiler for:
Mistvale
   [7.5] Polish
   [5.5] Playability
   [6.0] Entertainment
   [5.0] Ingenuity

The polish and playability would have been much higher if the bugs (both code and visual) were not so prevalent. The reason that ingenuity is so low, is that while very lovely and extremely complex for a one week project ... the game was a fairly straight-forward RPG. Now, I realize that RPG Maker is tailored to making RPGs, but as the contest was focused on complete freedom, I had hoped entries would branch out from normal RPGs and do something fresh. I also would have liked if each character had their own story, instead of being a daughter or son of the mayor, but I can understand that time restraints would keep this from happening.

Okay, though there's no point of it: I'm going to make my case. :V

I didn't know we could lose points on polish for bugs. o.o Even the passability bugs are more based on gameplay though, right? But, fair enough. I can sorta maybe see the point on this one.

Also, all of the characters had to be the son/daughter of a mayor, since the main theme of the game was being the mayor and all that. :p Basically, the goal of the game is to customize your town and all that fancy stuff, but I guess the RPG aspects leaked out a bit more. I think Cornelius says something about it in his explanation of how to play the game, but I forget.

I'm trying not to be a butt about this, but giving us a 5/10 for ingenuity is a little insulting. :mad: Especially since most of our features weren't even explored - such as the Dating Sim aspects and the Town Customization. I didn't think that was a standard RPG, at least. ;9

But bugs? Yeah, we had 'em. Lots and lots of bugs of many different species. They're always my downfall. :V
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 12:07:47 PM by Baroness Jules »
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In past "Game in a week", I don't recalled it being said that you had to make an RPG. Some people didn't make their game an RPG. So why does freedom suddenly translate into "You either created a brand new genre, or your game sucks".

What does ingenuity even mean in this context? Telling a story without with little to no combat? Oh yeah, I've never seen that done before. I've never seen that done in RPG maker. How ingenious and ground breaking.  :mad:

So unless you can tell me how the two winning games "haven't been done before" then I'm calling BS on this entire thing.


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Hmmmm... maybe i shall join yuyubabe next time...


I'm trying not to be a butt about this, but giving us a 5/10 for ingenuity is a little insulting. :mad: Especially since most of our features weren't even explored - such as the Dating Sim aspects and the Town Customization. I didn't think that was a standard RPG, at least. ;9


My game also has bulding town/castle aspects, no fights, no history quests and a sim date system, of course the time ate us all and we could not show what it was alike, i feel good going 4th because it's the first time i do this crazy thing of making a game in a week.

I think i will change the graphics of the game and finish it and then release it... just for fun.

Thank you all!
Congrats Zylos!

And congrats to everyone!

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My game also has bulding town/castle aspects, no fights, no history quests and a sim date system, of course the time ate us all and we could not show what it was alike, i feel good going 4th because it's the first time i do this crazy thing of making a game in a week.

Yeah, it's pretty tough stuff. :V Ironically, out of the three GIAWs I've competed in, the only game that won first place was the only game that I haven't taken seriously when making it. I think there's something to be said about too much dedication, perhaps. ;9
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I didn't know we could lose points on polish for bugs. o.o Even the passability bugs are more based on gameplay though, right? But, fair enough. I can sorta maybe see the point on this one.

I reasoned that audio and graphical issues went under Polish (preventing proper display), and scripting or eventing issues went under Gameplay (preventing the player to play through the game as intended).



Also, all of the characters had to be the son/daughter of a mayor, since the main theme of the game was being the mayor and all that. :p Basically, the goal of the game is to customize your town and all that fancy stuff, but I guess the RPG aspects leaked out a bit more. I think Cornelius says something about it in his explanation of how to play the game, but I forget.

Ah, honestly, I did not take away any points for any of that. I was just stating what I would have enjoyed seeing, is all.



I'm trying not to be a butt about this, but giving us a 5/10 for ingenuity is a little insulting. :mad: Especially since most of our features weren't even explored - such as the Dating Sim aspects and the Town Customization. I didn't think that was a standard RPG, at least. ;9

I reasoned that each of those features settle into the Gameplay and/or Entertainment category. Also, I did play through the game more than once. I meandered through the other features on different playthroughs.



In past "Game in a week", I don't recalled it being said that you had to make an RPG. Some people didn't make their game an RPG. So why does freedom suddenly translate into "You either created a brand new genre, or your game sucks".

What does ingenuity even mean in this context? Telling a story without with little to no combat? Oh yeah, I've never seen that done before. I've never seen that done in RPG maker. How ingenious and ground breaking.  :mad:

So unless you can tell me how the two winning games "haven't been done before" then I'm calling BS on this entire thing.

I said I was looking for something fresh, not something no one has ever done before. Also, I did not automatically flunk any submitted game simply because the genre settled into the RPG category.


Now, looking back on everything, did I read too much into the freedom aspect of the contest, perhaps turning the open idea into an actual theme? I suppose I did. Under the Ingenuity section I read : "originality and story: your usage of FREEDOM" and I saw that as a banner for aiming toward something fresh. I admit, I made an error in judgement.

Perhaps I was far too harsh. Perhaps I made mistakes in my reasoning. Perhaps I should have chosen better wording than 'standard RPG', which is not intended as a slight.

I am just a volunteer judge. And, in fact, this is my first time judging a gaming contest. Or any contest. Ever. Not to worry though, I will not be doing so in the future.

UPDATED 05-29-14


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< GIAW XII Exhydra's Scores with Brief Notes >
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Lost of Victorious End
   [2.5] Polish
   [1.5] Playability
   [1.0] Entertainment
   [1.0] Ingenuity

Alright. I have some helpful advice for the author of this game : start with the very basics first.

The game should be much more than a collection of nifty scripts and the functionality that they add. Focus your effort on dialog and story elements. If English is not your native language, that is all the more reason to focus on what your characters are saying. Next, move on to placing and polishing graphics. And if you absolutely need a script, then add it. Do not simply add a script you think you might use later. Add the script only when you do need it.

Also, including LGBT aspects is fine. Centering the story around the sexuality of one or more characters is fine. But when everyone is either flinging around degrading words or praising <insert sexuality>, I start flipping desks. Include more middle ground. Use subtle wording or actions. Anything but blatant obscenities, unless you absolutely need to.

I think that somewhere in your mind, there is a story or stories to be told. But, you seem intent on trying to impress others with graphics and fancy scripting. While proper usage of the aforementioned can impress people, I am telling you now that a good story will earn you more in the end. Practice, practice, practice!
Well, there should be added more Story so far, but after four days I quitted allready, because I didn't had any Internet and got depressed of missing the upload date. I'm in really bad conditions these days and to make all graphics and bug testing exhausted me. After the date there should be an attack and the real story should happen. But I was way to down, sorry for that. :'(

Normally the scripts should be all in use in the demo, the rest read above.

I'm sorry, if I offended the judges with it, didn't meant to. I only kinda tried to implement my real life situation in the game, sorry. :'( (\s/)

Well, after all I didn't expected much, but I wanted at least to send anything in... /)

But may I ask, why I got such a bad playability?
I thought I fixed all bugs and stuff. :/
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 01:19:58 AM by Octavia »

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Quote
In past "Game in a week", I don't recalled it being said that you had to make an RPG. Some people didn't make their game an RPG. So why does freedom suddenly translate into "You either created a brand new genre, or your game sucks".

What does ingenuity even mean in this context? Telling a story without with little to no combat? Oh yeah, I've never seen that done before. I've never seen that done in RPG maker. How ingenious and ground breaking.  :mad:

So unless you can tell me how the two winning games "haven't been done before" then I'm calling BS on this entire thing.

I am just a volunteer judge. And, in fact, this is my first time judging a gaming contest. Or any contest. Ever. Not to worry though, I will not be doing so in the future.

My rant wasn't aimed at you, and I apologize if it seemed that it was. It was just me letting off some steam over the score. I just want you know that it's not really anything personal, but that I just don't agree the score.  I don't think you're a bad person and everyone has differing opinions and will score/interpret things differently.

Spoiler for:
I was debating if I should use :V or :mad: and I decided on :mad: but now I'm thinking I should have use :V instead.

EDIT: plus, I want your body, Exhydra
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 01:28:17 AM by Lord Stark »
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My rant wasn't aimed at you, and I apologize if it seemed that it was. It was just me letting off some steam over the score. I just want you know that it's not really anything personal, but that I just don't agree the score.  I don't think you're a bad person and everyone has differing opinions and will score/interpret things differently.

Ah, well, just to be clear, as judges we did not discuss or debate criteria, nor did we share any scores amongst ourselves. At least, no discussion that I was privy to. So, what I posted above is simply my interpretation, and might not be shared by any other judge.

UPDATED 05-29-14


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UPDATED 07/04/15 - v2.5

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So unless you can tell me how the two winning games "haven't been done before" then I'm calling BS on this entire thing.

My main mechanics were teleportation, force pushing, force pulling and the concept of playing as a beta tester testing a game by multiple different authors. Where has that been done?

Quote
the Beta Tester
   [6.0] Polish
   [6.5] Playability
   [6.5] Entertainment
   [7.0] Ingenuity

 I totally get the first three. I had no time to test for balance or bugs and I didn't have an artist. Totally get it. Completely fair scores. But what would have been a 10 for Ingenuity? To me a 7.0 is a C-...I didn't even use RPG maker battles at all. I don't mean to hound on your scores, I know judging can be rough, but...C-?

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As an outsider looking in. This would make me really leery of ever being a judge in a GIAW.  Perhaps the guidelines for what you expect in judging should be a little more clear?  Just a thought  :yuyu:

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I always kinda thought that polish was pure looks and sounds, and everything bug-related was gameplay. o.o But, it's possible that I could be entirely wrong. Maybe there isn't a right or wrong way to score, though. The guidelines are a little blurry and perhaps we need to be more specific with them in the future. (Can't get much worse than the "genre" guideline last time. THAT's what I call blurry). That way no one can mistake them. That goes for me, too. B( I'm sure I've made many mistakes with them.

I guess I was mostly shocked with the ingenuity thing. I didn't think the story was 100% original, because I was going for something simple this time, and certainly not as story-based as Major Arcana. But, I didn't think it was that bad. And I was kind of proud of the way it was executed. ;9 But it's really not a big deal. I can see your points, and I know everyone is going to have a different opinion.



EDIT: plus, I want your body, Exhydra

o.o



Ah, well, just to be clear, as judges we did not discuss or debate criteria, nor did we share any scores amongst ourselves. At least, no discussion that I was privy to. So, what I posted above is simply my interpretation, and might not be shared by any other judge.

Also...wait, what? In the last GIAW, the judges were always discussing things. o.o Maybe we were just the odd ones, though. o.o We still made a couple of mistakes, with that stupid "genre" scoring guideline. ;_;



All of that aside: I don't think any of the comments above should impact your perception of how you are as a judge. To be honest, I think we get something like this almost every time a judge posts their specific results. And we will almost every time a judge does post them. There's always going to be some jerk (like me) that will argue with the interpretations. :V Don't let that deter you, okay?

(Yes, I know I'm being hypocritical and awfully wishy-washy. ;_; )
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Here's how I handled my scores.

Polish is an overall measure of how completed, how professional the game is.  If I find bugs, it makes the game look less polished, ditto with bad maps, or low quality music, badly cut sprites, poor dialogue, poor game balance, et cetera.  The more fragile your game appears, the less polish points I give it.

Playability is an overall measure of how the game flows.  If a game cannot be continued due to game breaking bugs, poor balance, lack of direction, or poor direction, it will lose playability points.  The smoother your game plays, the less the progression hiccups, the more playability points I give it.

Entertainment is self explanatory.  If I had fun, you score points, if I hated it, then low points.

Ingenuity is the one that seems to be tripping people up, so I'll give my take.  Ingenuity is an overall measure of how fresh the game felt, and how clever it is.  It doesn't matter if the core concepts are tried and true if they are applied in a fresh and interesting way.  See, all games, all stories have basically been done.  We can't grade this based on "I've never seen it before" or "I've seen it before."  Clever use of eventing systems will net you ingenuity points.  Clever applications of gameplay as a storytelling method will net you ingenuity points.  Clever storylines will net you ingenuity points.  Clever use of artwork and music will net you ingenuity points.  This category represents breaking away from the RPG Maker RTP standard and doing something that takes effort, thought, and...well, ingenuity.  It is NOT plain and simply originality but originality does factor in.

---

The entire purpose behind this four-category judgement system was to reward people who put in a lot of effort even if the judge didn't necessarily have fun.  In early GIAW events, entertainment bias riddled the scores, and otherwise well made games were given terrible scores because some of the judges didn't enjoy them.  This system also allows for flexibility, such as with "the beta tester" where for example, polish cannot be judged as black and white, due to the concept.

I hope this clears up my perspective at least.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 02:25:20 AM by tSwitch »

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Congratulations everyone! Everyone who finished has achieved a pretty remarkable thing as far as I'm concerned, so don't be dissuaded by low scores.

@Exhydra - Your scoring sounded fair enough to me and was aligned with the rubric given by Pac. The most important thing is to apply the same rubric to all the games, and as long as you do that it should even out when it is averaged with the other judges. Don't let it deter you from participating again. It compares quite favourably to some of my early judging; I was a pretty big jerk sometimes (Sorry corbin-nunn :'().

@yuyubabe - I understand your concerns, but any scoring system is going to have some subjectivity, and that comes through a bit in the ingenuity category. I'm sure that other judges found your game very ingenious, and perhaps games those judges considered boring ripoffs would have impressed Exhydra. Part of the reason there are so many judges is to ensure that one judge's idiosyncracies don't unfairly skew the score. Anyway, keep in mind that all of Exhydra's ingenuity scores were fairly low (and most lower than what he gave you), so it didn't hurt your average relative to the other competitors.

Also, I haven't played the game so I can't comment on this specifically and I might be misinterpreting your comment about some features being unexplored, but it's OK for a judge not to give points for planned features that aren't yet implemented or are only signalled toward. They have to judge what you made in a week, not what you could have made if you had a month.

Also, bugs can affect Polish or playability in my opinion, depending on whether the bug is audio/visual or gameplay-based. For instance, if your butterfly is turning into an ogre every time the player interacts with it from the wrong direction, then playability isn't affected at all, but it still disrupts the experience and is a sign of a lack of polish. (Well, at least when it's unintentional. If its intentional and makes sense, it might net you points for ingenuity with some judges. :P).

@Pacman - I recommend that you post the averages for each judging category, and not just the total average. It might allay some concerns.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 03:31:54 AM by modern algebra »

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I totally get the first three. I had no time to test for balance or bugs and I didn't have an artist. Totally get it. Completely fair scores. But what would have been a 10 for Ingenuity? To me a 7.0 is a C-...I didn't even use RPG maker battles at all. I don't mean to hound on your scores, I know judging can be rough, but...C-?

I guess I was mostly shocked with the ingenuity thing. I didn't think the story was 100% original, because I was going for something simple this time, and certainly not as story-based as Major Arcana. But, I didn't think it was that bad. And I was kind of proud of the way it was executed. ;9 But it's really not a big deal. I can see your points, and I know everyone is going to have a different opinion.

I basically followed how tSwitch laid out Ingenuity ...

Ingenuity is the one that seems to be tripping people up, so I'll give my take.  Ingenuity is an overall measure of how fresh the game felt, and how clever it is.  It doesn't matter if the core concepts are tried and true if they are applied in a fresh and interesting way.  See, all games, all stories have basically been done.  We can't grade this based on "I've never seen it before" or "I've seen it before."  Clever use of eventing systems will net you ingenuity points.  Clever applications of gameplay as a storytelling method will net you ingenuity points.  Clever storylines will net you ingenuity points.  Clever use of artwork and music will net you ingenuity points.  This category represents breaking away from the RPG Maker RTP standard and doing something that takes effort, thought, and...well, ingenuity.  It is NOT plain and simply originality but originality does factor in.

... except, I believe I graded that category in particular rather harshly. In hindsight, I probably should have doled out more eights and even a nine, or so.

Also, I probably should have discussed my thoughts on the scoring criteria with the other judges. Ah well, live and learn ...

UPDATED 05-29-14


IS YOUR PROJECT OPTIMIZED?
UPDATED 07/04/15 - v2.5

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I will post my scores and thoughts.

But I will soon after change my name and go into hiding.

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But may I ask, why I got such a bad playability?
I thought I fixed all bugs and stuff. :/
I don't know why I allways get ignored everywhere, may I'm really a push over. :'(
That was the only question I wanted to be answered. :/ (\s/)

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Those are some pretty solid explanations. o.o I still think it might be good to keep a specific rubric somewhere, just for those that get confused by them. Not just to anyone specific, but I would like to use to use that for the next time I judge, too.



Also, I haven't played the game so I can't comment on this specifically and I might be misinterpreting your comment about some features being unexplored, but it's OK for a judge not to give points for planned features that aren't yet implemented or are only signalled toward. They have to judge what you made in a week, not what you could have made if you had a month.

The features were ones that were basically fully implemented, but were not shown in the video review. :p So, after watching the video, I thought that he didn't test out the features initially. Then, he informed us that he played the game more than once and did test out the features. Just a bit of a misunderstanding there. ;9



Bluntsword: ;_; You don't have to post what you gave everyone specifically. ;9 In fact, it's often a bad idea because then people will do what I just did and try to argue the scores.
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I just want people to like everyone.

o.o

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I don't think anyone could ever not like you, bluntsword. ;_;

You're so likable.

;_______;
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But may I ask, why I got such a bad playability?
I thought I fixed all bugs and stuff. :/

Ah, my apologies, your question got buried.

There were still bugs present. The woman in the top right of the cafe caused an infinite, inescapable Parallel Process conversation. The one-step average per random battle in the Training Area was ... not game ending, but certainly interrupted the flow of the game. I had to disable the random battle in the area to go in and speak to the NPCs in a timely fashion. Also, on the boardwalk where Nagisa or Asuka is waiting, one of the character graphic files was not selected properly, causing the game to crash. There were also a host of minor, non-game breaking issues, as well.

UPDATED 05-29-14


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But may I ask, why I got such a bad playability?
I thought I fixed all bugs and stuff. :/
I don't know why I allways get ignored everywhere, may I'm really a push over. :'(
That was the only question I wanted to be answered. :/ (\s/)

I can't speak for the other judges, but it was confused me more than it was buggy.

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But may I ask, why I got such a bad playability?
I thought I fixed all bugs and stuff. :/
I don't know why I allways get ignored everywhere, may I'm really a push over. :'(
That was the only question I wanted to be answered. :/ (\s/)

I can't speak for the other judges, but it was confused me more than it was buggy.

Yes, that too.


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« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 05:57:52 AM by Exhydra »

UPDATED 05-29-14


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UPDATED 07/04/15 - v2.5

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Maybe solidify the criteria a bit?:

Balance - Was the difficulty curve fair to a player just starting the game? Did it present challenges that made no sense in the context given? This is not "omg this game is too hard", it's "Is this game providing me with the knowledge necessary to beat the challenges it presents?" Some games are hard. Some people don't like hard games. This doesn't make the game worse.

Polish - Was the map design strong? Was the music fitting? Where there sound effects in the right places? This is not "Omg they used all default rpg maker stuff burn him" it's "Does it work? Does it set a mood properly? Does it feel right? Does this piece of music make sense for this situation? Do the sound effects make the scene more believable?"

Bugginess - Were there textures you could walk through? Did you get any error messages? Did the game stall at any points?

Mechanics - Are the mechanics being used in interesting ways? Are they repeated over and over again? This is not "Have I seen this mechanic before". For example, if the mechanic is smacking things, do you always smack the same things? Or do you start smacking new things that make it interesting?

Conveyance - Do you have a decent idea of where to go at all times? Is it clear what everything does? Was there ever a point where you said "wtf do I do?" or "why is that happening...?" When you fail/succeed, do you understand why and have a decent idea of what you could have done better?

Notice that there is no "fun" category. Fun is completely 100% subjective. So is difficulty and originality. These above criteria are things that are much more objective and could be decided by a few judges rather than a bunch, which inevitably causes judging to take a long time. Also, none of the criteria overlap, so failing at once aspect doesn't deplete points from multiple areas. For example, having a buggy game in this competition takes away points from two or more categories.

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I actually really like those. A lot. It's much more objective, a bit less opinion-based, and a bit more fair. Also, it creates a category that I think is a bit overdue - "where the hell do I go next"?

The one thing it needs is at least something to do with story/writing/dialogue (or an alternative for when a game has none of these). ;o Otherwise, the writers will be at a disadvantage!

(Note that "story" is originally supposed to be a part of ingenuity - not just originality!)

But other than that, I think we're onto something here.
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Personally, I've always felt the categories were fine as is since they gave enough of the vital points while still leaving room for interpretation, but it has been a while since they were introduced so an update may be necessary sometime soon. The behind-the-scenes people who organize the contests will have to argue it out before the next contest.




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Maybe solidify the criteria a bit?:

Spoiler for:
Balance - Was the difficulty curve fair to a player just starting the game? Did it present challenges that made no sense in the context given? This is not "omg this game is too hard", it's "Is this game providing me with the knowledge necessary to beat the challenges it presents?" Some games are hard. Some people don't like hard games. This doesn't make the game worse.

Polish - Was the map design strong? Was the music fitting? Where there sound effects in the right places? This is not "Omg they used all default rpg maker stuff burn him" it's "Does it work? Does it set a mood properly? Does it feel right? Does this piece of music make sense for this situation? Do the sound effects make the scene more believable?"

Bugginess - Were there textures you could walk through? Did you get any error messages? Did the game stall at any points?

Mechanics - Are the mechanics being used in interesting ways? Are they repeated over and over again? This is not "Have I seen this mechanic before". For example, if the mechanic is smacking things, do you always smack the same things? Or do you start smacking new things that make it interesting?

Conveyance - Do you have a decent idea of where to go at all times? Is it clear what everything does? Was there ever a point where you said "wtf do I do?" or "why is that happening...?" When you fail/succeed, do you understand why and have a decent idea of what you could have done better?

These categories appear to be really rigid to me...and they focus almost entirely on gameplay oriented games.  We need a judgement criteria that is flexible enough to accommodate ANY sort of game.

Notice that there is no "fun" category. Fun is completely 100% subjective. So is difficulty and originality. These above criteria are things that are much more objective and could be decided by a few judges rather than a bunch, which inevitably causes judging to take a long time. Also, none of the criteria overlap, so failing at once aspect doesn't deplete points from multiple areas. For example, having a buggy game in this competition takes away points from two or more categories.

Entertainment value needs to be part of the judgement criteria.  Whether it's a game for fun, or a serious game, or whatever...if you're hooked, then the game is GOOD and that needs to be part of the score, regardless of if it's a buggy mess.  Perhaps we should rename this as 'Immersion' to make it appear more solid, and allow for more broad application of the intended meaning of the category.

Playability could use a little tweaking though, possibly.

I actually really like those. A lot. It's much more objective, a bit less opinion-based, and a bit more fair. Also, it creates a category that I think is a bit overdue - "where the hell do I go next"?

That's covered in playability.  If you don't know what you're supposed to do, then the game isn't playable.  I think we do need an opinion category for judges to voice their feelings, as when we didn't, people did it anyway.

The one thing it needs is at least something to do with story/writing/dialogue (or an alternative for when a game has none of these). ;o Otherwise, the writers will be at a disadvantage!

(Note that "story" is originally supposed to be a part of ingenuity - not just originality!)

I don't think we need to make a flip-flop category for games with or without story, that is just overcomplicating the system.  As it stands, a well written story could make the game more polished, more entertaining, and more ingenious.  Additionally, good dialogue, I feel, falls under polish, and good direction from dialogue falls under playability.

I seriously don't think we should make a 'story' category, or adopt a strict standard of judgement, because that just further pigeonholes people into making story based RPGs that are gameplay focused.  If we say "I want to see these things in a game" and write the system based on that, we penalize anything else.

That's not fair.

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Ah, my apologies, your question got buried.

There were still bugs present. The woman in the top right of the cafe caused an infinite, inescapable Parallel Process conversation. The one-step average per random battle in the Training Area was ... not game ending, but certainly interrupted the flow of the game. I had to disable the random battle in the area to go in and speak to the NPCs in a timely fashion. Also, on the boardwalk where Nagisa or Asuka is waiting, one of the character graphic files was not selected properly, causing the game to crash. There were also a host of minor, non-game breaking issues, as well.
Damn, there you right, I overseen these parallel process and forgot to deactivate the random battle again in the Trainings Hall. I made it for balancing testing, but forgot to turn it back, my bad. :/
Well, normaly you should date her there and I wanted it to add on day 5, but I quitted early, because I didn't had internet and was not sure if I will get it in time. :'(

But now I can understand and agree 100% with your rating. There is nothing more annoying then gamebreaking bugs. :'(

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For the Rating overall it would be great if it would be detailed like in game reviews, kinda like:
Graphic = How good or fitting is the optical aspect, or is it clashing?
Sound = Are the sounds and music that is used fitting to the situation/locations?
Difficulty = Is it way too easy or way to hard, or is it just right?
Story = Is the story clear to understand, interresting, or is it boring and does it even have a story.
Ingenuity = Is there anything new in it, or is it used in a new way?
Bug Density = Is it a super buggy game with gamebreaking stuff, or are only a few, or not even a bug at all?

And from these points you will get to the total rating. I think a 100% Rating would be more clear then a 0/10 Point system. It also will give more room for the judges to give a rating.  So if some people are close together from a rating one or two percents could make the difference then. And I think the chances would be for all the same, because one will get more in that point and others will get more in other points. ;) (\s/)

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I just seriously can't agree with a judging criteria that assumes that a game needs to have some aspects.  I've played amazing games without sounds, without graphics, without stories, without gameplay, not all at once but you see what I'm getting at here?

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And from these points you will get to the total rating. I think a 100% Rating would be more clear then a 0/10 Point system. It also will give more room for the judges to give a rating.  So if some people are close together from a rating one or two percents could make the difference then. And I think the chances would be for all the same, because one will get more in that point and others will get more in other points. ;) (\s/)

Some judges already give scores with up to two digits after the decimal, and I rounded them to the nearest tenth (effectively being out of 100).

As for your proposed scoring categories, I already decided it was wrong when I read "story". I feel as though you just unpacked the already existing categories and threw in some elements which are way too subjective. Desired difficulty is different for every person, and isn't even a measure of how good a game is in the first place. There's no reason difficulty should be its own category when an extreme difficulty could result in a lower playabality score, perhaps, and a game with no difficulty could lose points in entertainment, for example.
Story can never be a category on its own for judging purposes. Some games don't have stories. On purpose. And they're perfectly fine games. In fact, one of the five games I consider to be perfect has exactly no story, and all of the others convey story through gameplay and little through dialogue. It's silly to score a game on how "good" its story is, when there's so much more to story in games than just the plot (and also it's all incredibly subjective).
The way you've described graphics and sound make it seem as though an Atmosphere category could cover those elements and more. However, again, treatment to atmosphere is subjective, so we bundle graphics and sound in to a more concise and objective category, Polish.
Bug Density is a factor of Polish and Playability. There are more things that can break a game than bugs, though, so we have to take them in to consideration as well, which is why it's not its own category.

All this is fine for reviewing games, but not judging them in a contest. It seems a bit basic, arbitrary and dangerously subjective. We try to bundle distinct categories that can include whatever aspects the game does or does not have. This is why we have broader terms than one might expect - to be all-encompassing but also concise. It's tricky, but you just need to forget what you think is important in a game and think about the experience itself.
it's like a metaphor or something i don't know

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I just seriously can't agree with a judging criteria that assumes that a game needs to have some aspects.  I've played amazing games without sounds, without graphics, without stories, without gameplay, not all at once but you see what I'm getting at here?

But that's the beauty of it. It doesn't say "Is the music super awesome and have guitars" it says "Does it feel right". Sometimes, silence is exactly what builds up to something perfectly. Sometimes having no graphics at all to play as a blind man is more engaging than having graphics. Games without stories, such as Super Smash Bros, work great. Maybe you play as a deaf guy and can't hear the sounds at all. There's a few ways I could think that would be interesting. There are a ton of times when I wish the designers just shut off the music for a certain scene. That is part of polish. Knowing when to use something and when not to.

Quote
These categories appear to be really rigid to me...and they focus almost entirely on gameplay oriented games.  We need a judgement criteria that is flexible enough to accommodate ANY sort of game.


Gameplay is at the core of games. You also have to remember that as long as the player has control, there is gameplay. Choosing a story path is gameplay. As we've seen with a lot of story based games like Heavy Rain and Mass Effect, that can be done amazingly. Heavy Rain even does some amazing work with quick time events and Balance can easily be applied to that game's core mechanics. Even if the game has nothing but dialogue choices, the category is about making informed decisions. Do the dialogue options give you the information necessary to make the right choices or more broadly, the choices you want? If your game is 100% out of the player's control, you've created a movie.

Quote

Entertainment value needs to be part of the judgement criteria.  Whether it's a game for fun, or a serious game, or whatever...if you're hooked, then the game is GOOD and that needs to be part of the score, regardless of if it's a buggy mess.  Perhaps we should rename this as 'Immersion' to make it appear more solid, and allow for more broad application of the intended meaning of the category.

Playability could use a little tweaking though, possibly.


I tested my game with a few people after the contest. I had a few that loved it and a few that hated it. One person said "I'm just not into this sort of game. I don't like action games." Should my score be worse because one of the judges doesn't like this type of game? I hate RTSs, but should Starcraft II be taken off the shelves?

Quote
That's covered in playability.  If you don't know what you're supposed to do, then the game isn't playable.  I think we do need an opinion category for judges to voice their feelings, as when we didn't, people did it anyway.

That's not very clear though. Playability covers a LOT of aspects in the game currently. It covers "Gameplay and General Mechanics". What about them? I'm just suggesting focusing the criteria down so the game makers know what they will be judged on and the judges know what they are judging.


Quote
I don't think we need to make a flip-flop category for games with or without story, that is just overcomplicating the system.  As it stands, a well written story could make the game more polished, more entertaining, and more ingenious.  Additionally, good dialogue, I feel, falls under polish, and good direction from dialogue falls under playability.

I seriously don't think we should make a 'story' category, or adopt a strict standard of judgement, because that just further pigeonholes people into making story based RPGs that are gameplay focused.  If we say "I want to see these things in a game" and write the system based on that, we penalize anything else.

That's not fair.

I think that's a stretch to say that a good story falls under two categories. It also makes it so having a bad story hurts you BIG time. Having one bad thing in your game shouldn't punish you harder than having something else bad in your game.

The one thing it needs is at least something to do with story/writing/dialogue (or an alternative for when a game has none of these). ;o Otherwise, the writers will be at a disadvantage!

(Note that "story" is originally supposed to be a part of ingenuity - not just originality!)

What about this?:


Balance - Was the difficulty curve fair to a player just starting the game? Did it present challenges that made no sense in the context given? If you died, were you laughing and smiling or frustrated? This is not "omg this game is too hard", it's "Is this game providing me with the knowledge necessary to beat the challenges it presents?" Some games are hard. Some people don't like hard games. This doesn't make the game worse.

Polish - Was the map design strong? Was the music fitting? Where there sound effects in the right places? This is not "Omg they used all default rpg maker stuff burn him" it's "Does it work? Does it set a mood properly? Does it feel right? Does this piece of music make sense for this situation? Do the sound effects make the scene more believable?"

Bugginess - Were there textures you could walk through? Did you get any error messages? Did the game stall at any points?

Mechanics - Are the mechanics being used in interesting ways? Are they repeated over and over again? This is not "Have I seen this mechanic before". For example, if the mechanic is smacking things, do you always smack the same things? Or do you start smacking new things that make it interesting?

Conveyance - Do you have a decent idea of where to go at all times? Is it clear what everything does? Was there ever a point where you said "wtf do I do?" or "why is that happening...?" When you fail/succeed, do you understand why and have a decent idea of what you could have done better?

Build Up - Is there a feeling that the game escalates? Is the ending satisfying? Were the way encounters (of any kind) introduced powerful in their tone? This is not, "omg explosions this game is epic" this is, if the game has a dark mood, did the build up to the Shadow Fiend at the end of the game feel right. If the game is a dating sim and you are trying to go out with the super hunk from your school, did the build up to the date feel right. Overall, this is, "did the game make you feel engaged or excited at some point during the game?" If a boss just comes out of no where, that's not build up. If a boss is introduced before hand, teases you a bit and finally kills your best friend at the top of the mountain and you have to solo two of them, now we have build up.


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And from these points you will get to the total rating. I think a 100% Rating would be more clear then a 0/10 Point system. It also will give more room for the judges to give a rating.  So if some people are close together from a rating one or two percents could make the difference then. And I think the chances would be for all the same, because one will get more in that point and others will get more in other points. ;) (\s/)


Some judges already give scores with up to two digits after the decimal, and I rounded them to the nearest tenth (effectively being out of 100).

As for your proposed scoring categories, I already decided it was wrong when I read "story". I feel as though you just unpacked the already existing categories and threw in some elements which are way too subjective. Desired difficulty is different for every person, and isn't even a measure of how good a game is in the first place. There's no reason difficulty should be its own category when an extreme difficulty could result in a lower playabality score, perhaps, and a game with no difficulty could lose points in entertainment, for example.
Story can never be a category on its own for judging purposes. Some games don't have stories. On purpose. And they're perfectly fine games. In fact, one of the five games I consider to be perfect has exactly no story, and all of the others convey story through gameplay and little through dialogue. It's silly to score a game on how "good" its story is, when there's so much more to story in games than just the plot (and also it's all incredibly subjective).
The way you've described graphics and sound make it seem as though an Atmosphere category could cover those elements and more. However, again, treatment to atmosphere is subjective, so we bundle graphics and sound in to a more concise and objective category, Polish.
Bug Density is a factor of Polish and Playability. There are more things that can break a game than bugs, though, so we have to take them in to consideration as well, which is why it's not its own category.

All this is fine for reviewing games, but not judging them in a contest. It seems a bit basic, arbitrary and dangerously subjective. We try to bundle distinct categories that can include whatever aspects the game does or does not have. This is why we have broader terms than one might expect - to be all-encompassing but also concise. It's tricky, but you just need to forget what you think is important in a game and think about the experience itself.

But I can no longer design games for myself. I have to design for the judges now. If I know a lot of the judges will swoon over an amazing epic story, I'd be stupid not to do that. If I know they hate action games, I'd be stupid to make one.

Also, balance, as I said in the category, is not "This is too hard, F-". It's, "do I have the information necessary to complete the challenge". If you get to a boss that requires put them in a head lock and use a healing item on their neck to KILL THEM, (METAL GEAR SOLID 4 WTF) that's bad balance. There's no reason a player would think to do that. Ever. There isn't a human on this planet that didn't look up how to beat that boss. If the first boss is stupid hard and the next boss is stupid easy, that's bad balance. If the first boss is super easy but the next challenge requires a greek god to imbue their powers to you to handle how hard it is, that's bad balance. It's mostly about consistency.

Where did you read story? I just Ctrl F'ed my post and it didn't show up once.

The problem I have with the current rating system is that some aspects of a game are in multiple categories while some are only in one. Story is in two categories. Bugs affect almost 3.

Quote
There's no reason difficulty should be its own category when an extreme difficulty could result in a lower playabality score, perhaps, and a game with no difficulty could lose points in entertainment, for example.

Less difficulty doesn't make a game less fun. More difficulty doesn't make a game less playable. If you enjoy hard games (Braid, Dark Souls), a fair but difficult game is super engaging to you. Dying is fun because you know the challenge is worthy of your time to complete. If you enjoy easy games (Farmville, Beyond Two Souls, Heavy Rain, Indigo Prophecy), then a game where you never die is actually more engaging to you. You like owning everything and possibly like story more and the gameplay is more about being in their shoes than anything else. What is not okay (and what the category judges) is if you are consistent in your design of that difficulty. A dark souls player is super disappointed when they beat a really hard boss and move on to the next challenge, super excited to be challenged again, only to find they beat the boss the first try. A casual player is disappointed when they are having a lovely time blowing up countless enemies with no difficulty, only to face a boss that is a big jerk and wrecks them for hours until they give up frustrated.

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If you get to a boss that requires put them in a head lock and use a healing item on their neck to KILL THEM, (METAL GEAR SOLID 4 WTF) that's bad balance. There's no reason a player would think to do that. Ever. There isn't a human on this planet that didn't look up how to beat that boss.

it was a puzzle in the same way Psycho Mantis in 1 was. ALSO THEY FUCKING TELL YOU WHAT TO DO IF YOU'RE NOT GETTING IT THE FIRST TIME VIA CODEC. lrn2mgs



the thing with the current categories is that it does leave room for some interpretation but it works for any game. with having a "GAMEPLAY" category some judges would judge a game with no combat or something as having a low gameplay score. If we used the same judges every time that's fine as long as we all understood what gameplay meant. when anyone can sign up to judge we need to have categories that work no matter what you're playing.

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If you get to a boss that requires put them in a head lock and use a healing item on their neck to KILL THEM, (METAL GEAR SOLID 4 WTF) that's bad balance. There's no reason a player would think to do that. Ever. There isn't a human on this planet that didn't look up how to beat that boss.

it was a puzzle in the same way Psycho Mantis in 1 was. ALSO THEY FUCKING TELL YOU WHAT TO DO IF YOU'RE NOT GETTING IT THE FIRST TIME VIA CODEC. lrn2mgs



the thing with the current categories is that it does leave room for some interpretation but it works for any game. with having a "GAMEPLAY" category some judges would judge a game with no combat or something as having a low gameplay score. If we used the same judges every time that's fine as long as we all understood what gameplay meant. when anyone can sign up to judge we need to have categories that work no matter what you're playing.

That's part of the category tho. Gameplay is anything the player does. There doesn't need to be combat for that. You don't even need a moving sprite for that. As long as that's explained to the judges, it's fine. I really think the judges should be a select few that talk to each other, not a random bunch that don't.

Current categories. Current. I can definitely read.

I just don't like the fact that if I have amazing gameplay but my story is boring and makes no sense, I could get a 5 for entertainment.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 05:15:27 PM by Legacy »

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I just seriously can't agree with a judging criteria that assumes that a game needs to have some aspects.  I've played amazing games without sounds, without graphics, without stories, without gameplay, not all at once but you see what I'm getting at here?

But that's the beauty of it. It doesn't say "Is the music super awesome and have guitars" it says "Does it feel right". Sometimes, silence is exactly what builds up to something perfectly. Sometimes having no graphics at all to play as a blind man is more engaging than having graphics. Games without stories, such as Super Smash Bros, work great. Maybe you play as a deaf guy and can't hear the sounds at all. There's a few ways I could think that would be interesting. There are a ton of times when I wish the designers just shut off the music for a certain scene. That is part of polish. Knowing when to use something and when not to.

I think it's a bad idea to write judgement criteria that assumes certain aspects will be part of the game, then go and say "but it doesn't have to have them to get a high score."  You aren't solving the clarity issue at all.

Gameplay is at the core of games. You also have to remember that as long as the player has control, there is gameplay. Choosing a story path is gameplay. As we've seen with a lot of story based games like Heavy Rain and Mass Effect, that can be done amazingly. Heavy Rain even does some amazing work with quick time events and Balance can easily be applied to that game's core mechanics. Even if the game has nothing but dialogue choices, the category is about making informed decisions. Do the dialogue options give you the information necessary to make the right choices or more broadly, the choices you want? If your game is 100% out of the player's control, you've created a movie.

I agree, however as a judging category "gameplay" falls flat, as judges will likely interpret it as "how fun was the gameplay" or "how broken was the gameplay" and I can easily see it being turned into a subjective category where less gameplay-focused games get penalized.

What about this?:

Balance - Was the difficulty curve fair to a player just starting the game? Did it present challenges that made no sense in the context given? If you died, were you laughing and smiling or frustrated? This is not "omg this game is too hard", it's "Is this game providing me with the knowledge necessary to beat the challenges it presents?" Some games are hard. Some people don't like hard games. This doesn't make the game worse.

Balance is ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE.

Polish - Was the map design strong? Was the music fitting? Where there sound effects in the right places? This is not "Omg they used all default rpg maker stuff burn him" it's "Does it work? Does it set a mood properly? Does it feel right? Does this piece of music make sense for this situation? Do the sound effects make the scene more believable?"

Bugginess - Were there textures you could walk through? Did you get any error messages? Did the game stall at any points?

Bugs hinder polish, they make the game LOOK less polished, less professional.  I really don't see the reason to separate it out.  Mapping Errors are bugs.  Should these affect two categories or one?

Mechanics - Are the mechanics being used in interesting ways? Are they repeated over and over again? This is not "Have I seen this mechanic before". For example, if the mechanic is smacking things, do you always smack the same things? Or do you start smacking new things that make it interesting?

Conveyance - Do you have a decent idea of where to go at all times? Is it clear what everything does? Was there ever a point where you said "wtf do I do?" or "why is that happening...?" When you fail/succeed, do you understand why and have a decent idea of what you could have done better?

Build Up - Is there a feeling that the game escalates? Is the ending satisfying? Were the way encounters (of any kind) introduced powerful in their tone? This is not, "omg explosions this game is epic" this is, if the game has a dark mood, did the build up to the Shadow Fiend at the end of the game feel right. If the game is a dating sim and you are trying to go out with the super hunk from your school, did the build up to the date feel right. Overall, this is, "did the game make you feel engaged or excited at some point during the game?" If a boss just comes out of no where, that's not build up. If a boss is introduced before hand, teases you a bit and finally kills your best friend at the top of the mountain and you have to solo two of them, now we have build up.

I disagree with all 3 of these proposed categories.  Again, you're pinpointing against what -you- think a game needs to have, and you can't solve the clarity issue by making it more complex.

In fact, your categories barely even take game content into account.  What the game is, is just as important as how well it was executed.  Judgement criteria should be flexible enough to take EVERYTHING into equal account.

I agree with what Pac said.

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Double post because I can.

I just don't like the fact that if I have amazing gameplay but my story is boring and makes no sense, I could get a 5 for entertainment.

If your gameplay is amazing, you're going to get a high entertainment score from judges that were entertained by your gameplay.  Some judges may value the story more than others and you won't get as high a score with them, THIS IS FINE.  This is why we use a panel of judges and average their scores.

What is the point of having more than one judge if we're trying to literally remove the entire human element from judgement?

Additionally, YOU'RE IN A JUDGED CONTEST.  Of course you're making the game to impress the judges.  That's the whole point of a judged competition to begin with!  Competitions aren't about giving everybody 10's because they tried, it's about COMPETING, for fun or otherwise.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 05:46:42 PM by tSwitch »

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Notice that there is no "fun" category. Fun is completely 100% subjective. So is difficulty and originality. These above criteria are things that are much more objective and could be decided by a few judges rather than a bunch, which inevitably causes judging to take a long time. Also, none of the criteria overlap, so failing at once aspect doesn't deplete points from multiple areas. For example, having a buggy game in this competition takes away points from two or more categories.

Although fun may be subjective, a good game developer would be able to make a game fun for players of all types.... So in reality, fun/entertainment is a HUGE part of a good score... in my opinion at least...
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I think it's a bad idea to write judgement criteria that assumes certain aspects will be part of the game, then go and say "but it doesn't have to have them to get a high score."  You aren't solving the clarity issue at all.


That's not what I'm saying >_< I'm starting to think you're purposely not understanding me. I am saying, if it makes sense to have no music in a certain situation, that that's great! if it makes sense to not have a sound effect, then that's great. But not having sound effects for no reason isn't great. Not having music and having a battle fall flat because of it is BAD polish. Having a really awkward moment where you cut the music to increase the awkwardness is GOOD. It's "does it work".

I am assuming that a game in this contest has gameplay, fitting visuals and fitting sound. That's it. You don't need a story. You don't need super awesome art maps. The visuals and sound don't even need to be the best in the world and written by Nobuo himself, they just need to fit.

Quote

Balance is ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE.


If all you are going to read and interpret is the title of the category, then yes, balance is entirely subjective. But if you read the things I've been saying, it's more than "is this too hard?" It's is this hard enough for the context we've been given and the previous encounters? If the first boss is silly hard, that's fine, as long as there is a logical way to beat it. What would not be okay is if the next boss is stupid easy for no reason. You have to use common sense with this. If there is a good reason to break a "rule" here, then it's fine. If there isn't, then it's not fine.

Quote

Bugs hinder polish, they make the game LOOK less polished, less professional.  I really don't see the reason to separate it out.  Mapping Errors are bugs.  Should these affect two categories or one?

Yes, they do. But there's no reason you should lose points in two categories simply because there are bugs. Map errors are not bugs, they are map errors. They go in polish, not bugginess. Bugginess is purely: Did I get an error message or did the game completely stop working.

Quote

I disagree with all 3 of these proposed categories.  Again, you're pinpointing against what -you- think a game needs to have, and you can't solve the clarity issue by making it more complex.

In fact, your categories barely even take game content into account.  What the game is, is just as important as how well it was executed.  Judgement criteria should be flexible enough to take EVERYTHING into equal account.

I agree with what Pac said.

Why do you disagree? Also, what content in a game am I not including with the balance, the mechanics, the polish (which includes art, music and SFX), build up...? That's pretty much everything in a game in a nut shell. What do you mean by "what the game is?" Genre?

Although fun may be subjective, a good game developer would be able to make a game fun for players of all types.... So in reality, fun/entertainment is a HUGE part of a good score... in my opinion at least...

I hate RTS games. How do you make that fun for me? I don't like visual novels or games that are too easy (Beyond Two Souls). How do you make that fun for me? Furthermore, how do you do that in one week? Adding difficulty levels in a week is nigh impossible to balance correctly and to basically require it is extremely hard. A good game developer understands that their game has a market audience and that pandering to too many audiences is a good way to make a bad game or a game that is way overscoped.

Additionally, YOU'RE IN A JUDGED CONTEST.  Of course you're making the game to impress the judges.  That's the whole point of a judged competition to begin with!  Competitions aren't about giving everybody 10's because they tried, it's about COMPETING, for fun or otherwise.

In the Olympics, Gymnasts don't lose because the judge isn't a fan of a certain move. They judge based on how well executed it was. There are ways to judge execution, rather than personal enjoyment.

Quote
If your gameplay is amazing, you're going to get a high entertainment score from judges that were entertained by your gameplay.  Some judges may value the story more than others and you won't get as high a score with them, THIS IS FINE.  This is why we use a panel of judges and average their scores.

This assumes there are always an equal amount of judges who are in the game's target audience and an equal amount who are not. This is almost impossible. If there's even a slight imbalance in the number of people who hate your game's genre, you are automatically at a disadvantage.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 06:25:37 PM by Legacy »

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If all you are going to read and interpret is the title of the category, then yes, balance is entirely subjective. But if you read the thingzs I've been saying, it's more than "is this too hard?"It's is this hard enough for the context we've been given and the previous encounters? If the first boss is silly hard, that's fine, as long as there is a logical way to beat it. What would not be okay is if the next boss is stupid easy for no reason. You have to use common sense with this. If there is a good reason to break a "rule" here, then it's fine. If there isn't, then it's not fine.

But the thing is...ALL OF THIS is subjective.  I may say that ATLUS games aren't too hard, but you might say they are.  It doesn't matter that it is the same balance curve, we have different perspectives.  ADDITIONALLY not all game types even rely on balance to begin with!  Why write categories that don't apply to all game types to begin with?

Yes, they do. But there's no reason you should lose points in two categories simply because there are bugs. Map errors are not bugs, they are map errors. They go in polish, not bugginess. Bugginess is purely: Did I get an error message or did the game completely stop working.

A bug is anything within the game that isn't how it is intended to be.

Why do you disagree? Also, what content in a game am I not including with the balance, the mechanics, the polish (which includes art, music and SFX), build up...? That's pretty much everything in a game in a nut shell. What do you mean by "what the game is?" Genre?

Because I don't think we need to separate every aspect of the game out and grade them separately.  A game is the sum of its parts, we should grade it as such, not by the quality of the individual moving pieces.

In the Olympics, Gymnasts don't lose because the judge isn't a fan of a certain move. They judge based on how well executed it was. There are ways to judge execution, rather than personal enjoyment.

In the Olympics, judges aren't actively participating in the media that they are judging.  They are simply observing.  Games are interactive, and meant to convey something to the player, be it a message or simply entertainment.  If a game is boring and doesn't grip the judge by their collar and drag them into the game world, then it should lose points.

This assumes there are always an equal amount of judges who are in the game's target audience and an equal amount who are not. This is almost impossible. If there's even a slight imbalance in the number of people who hate your game's genre, you are automatically at a disadvantage.

If you make a game that isn't fun to half the judges, or isn't fun to most of the judges, it probably isn't very fun, or you knowingly made a very niche title.  Sorry, but that's how aggregate statistics work.

---

You are creating arbitrary limitations based on your own opinions.  As I keep saying, judgement criteria needs to fit any genre, any graphical style, etc... and our system already appears to accomplish this. 

Polish covers how well the art meshes ( including visuals, audio, dialogue, etc... ), as well as if there are any issues with presentation that disrupt the look and feel of the game.
Playability covers balance, gameplay crashes, issues with progression, etc... 
Ingenuity rewards the creator for putting effort into making their game unique.
Entertainment ( or 'Immersion' if you prefer ) gauges how much the game pulled in the judges and kept their interest.

All games need to be polished, playable, clever ( some more than others ), and they need to capture your attention.

I would challenge you to find a genre or game that could not be evaluated based on these principles.

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Looks at that creative discussion!

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All games need to be polished, playable, clever ( some more than others ), and they need to capture your attention.

I would challenge you to find a genre or game that could not be evaluated based on these principles.

Well said.
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Okay, so I know I'm not exactly the epitome of understanding and kindness lately, but I don't quite think this is the right approach to encourage new ideas around the forums.

Either way, I can see where you're both coming from at this point. But I don't think its quite fair to assume that Legacy is basing those points off of his opinions, per se... I think a lot of them are very good and can at least be used as subcategories for the guidelines. On that note: adding/defining those subcategories might be helpful. Anything that we agree should be important, but maybe not -too- important, could be a subcategory. We could have each of those scored out of 10 total points, and then take the average of those (or tally them up) as that general guideline's points. And so on, for each guideline.

Spoiler for Example:
Example: "Polish" could be "Visuals" "Audio" and "Story/Writing/Whatever". If we encounter a game with no writing, we can always just average out the other two and use that for that game's general score for "Polish". Or something. I dunno, it's an idea.


Assuming the person made a game with story elements:

Visuals - 6.4
Audio - 5.3
Story/Writing - 4.1
Polish Average = 5.27

Assuming the person made a game without story elements:

Visuals - 6.4
Audio - 5.3
Polish Average = 5.85

I understand that there's probably some flaws with this system, since it may - or may not! - give an advantage to those that are choosing to include story elements. Most games will have them, either way, but it's entirely up to the person making the game. Just a thought I figured I'd throw out there. :drsword:
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 12:32:05 AM by Queen yuyubabe »
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I just think that kind of system is unnecessarily overcomplicated. We have 4 succinct, all-encompassing categories that should be easy to understand.
it's like a metaphor or something i don't know

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But that's the beauty of it. It doesn't say "Is the music super awesome and have guitars" it says "Does it feel right". Sometimes, silence is exactly what builds up to something perfectly. Sometimes having no graphics at all to play as a blind man is more engaging than having graphics. Games without stories, such as Super Smash Bros, work great. Maybe you play as a deaf guy and can't hear the sounds at all. There's a few ways I could think that would be interesting. There are a ton of times when I wish the designers just shut off the music for a certain scene. That is part of polish. Knowing when to use something and when not to.
That was what I tried to say, is the graphic fitting, means in example of MLP, there are only less colors, kinda like 4-16 colors at once on screen. That would be about a high score. But if a horror game has bright and colorful presentation it would be a low score. I meant the points kinda like how much they fitting.
For sound it is kinda like you said, if someone is blind, it would be great, that you need to listen to the sound to get to dungeons. So it's about fitting the situation. (\s/)

The problem I have with the current rating system is that some aspects of a game are in multiple categories while some are only in one. Story is in two categories. Bugs affect almost 3.
I think the same, it's kinda unfair. You are doing one mistake and you get a low score in allmost every point. :/
I think if it is clearly listed it would be a fairer competition. Because someone who didn't made a story get's a 0 there, but maybe he get's a 9.2 or higher for the inventiveness. So everyone has a chance and not only the creme del a creme. I guess a beginner may lose many points in bugs, graphics, sound, but may get a high score on story and gameplay. I guess the review way gives more people a fair chance and not only the pro's. ;) (\s/)

By the way, even with the momentary judgement system belongs all to the result of all judgement scores. So there would be not much difference to know. ;) /)

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Because someone who didn't made a story get's a 0 there, but maybe he get's a 9.2 or higher for the inventiveness.
No. That's exactly why things like "story" can't be a category.
it's like a metaphor or something i don't know

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I just want to say that this discussion is dumb. Now having said that:

1. Some of you are exaggerating the meaning behind what the other is saying to make it seem like what you're saying is more reasonable.
2. No scoring system is perfect, but what's being proposed is less perfect than what is already in place. It's a simple contest, the scoring criteria should be simple.
3. If the way games were scored was really in need of being changed, it probably would have been brought up well before GIAW reached double digits.
4. Scoring story in both Entertainment and Ingenuity is dumb, that should actually be changed.
5. Everybody shut up.
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I do think the scoring system system is in need of a change. Personally, here's the categories I'd have:

Spoiler for:
Story
Game feel
Backstory
Lore
Ambiance
Atmosphere
Cutscene quality
Cutscene length
Subtitle font
Jumping physics
Music melodies
Music catchyness
Music chord progression
Music wind-chime sample quality
Voice acting (male)
Voice acting (female)
Voice acting (transgendered)
Voice acting (genderless)
Voice acting (non-humans)

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I SHALL NOT BE SILENCED (because I already typed this out and don't want to have wasted my time ok)

I just think that kind of system is unnecessarily overcomplicated. We have 4 succinct, all-encompassing categories that should be easy to understand.

Errr... Polish, maybe. But it says "visuals and audio" and out of nowhere, it seems like it includes other stuff that has to do with polish (whereas I took it literally as nothing but visuals and audio).

Gameplay is typically a good guideline, but its very, very broad.

Ingenuity is the most confusing one. I think it should be split up or watered down or just explained better.

Entertainment is a tough call, though. The other guidelines are going to have influence over it, such as a game with many bugs being scored lowly on this because it annoyed the judge and ruined their fun. Also, this is probably the worst genre for constructive criticism. When the judges say "you're game ain't fun," that's probably the most likely thing to keep me from actually finishing the game. Especially because most games aren't as fun in their beta phases.


I think the use of subcategories will outline a basic list of what each judge should look for. Not only that, but it might actually help out the maker, too. They just spent a majority of their week making a game and pouring their heart into it, and many of them wish to continue making or improving their games. For example (using Polish again), it might really help them to see: Visuals - 5.5/10. Audio - 7.9/10. Whatever else - 9,000+/10.

If everything is broken down, it'll be much easier to see what can be improved, while also not putting too much pressure on the judges to have to write comments for everything (though comments are always helpful).

Spoiler for More Example whee:

Polish:

Visuals - ?/10
Audio - ?/10
Writing - ?/10


Gameplay:

Playability - ?/10
Mechanics - ?/10
Balance - ?/10


Ingenuity

Freshness :mad: - ?/10
Entertainment - ?/10
Direction - ?/10



(I just filled in randomly somewhat suiting stuff. The contents would require further debate, considering if anyone likes this.)
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I do think the scoring system system is in need of a change. Personally, here's the categories I'd have:

Spoiler for:
Story
Game feel
Backstory
Lore
Ambiance
Atmosphere
Cutscene quality
Cutscene length
Subtitle font
Jumping physics
Music melodies
Music catchyness
Music chord progression
Music wind-chime sample quality
Voice acting (male)
Voice acting (female)
Voice acting (transgendered)
Voice acting (genderless)
Voice acting (non-humans)

Whoa, ambiance AND atmosphere? That's just silly. Narrow it down to just one though and I think you're on to something.
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I get sarcasm and beeing rude reallly well. :/
I really hate it to get everywhere messed around, for what I say and offer. >:(
For real, I only suggest, like every other here, what I think is best and clear pointing system. :'(
Sometimes I really feel displaced everywhere I go on. Am I really a that bad and annoying person? :'(
It's okay to have only 4 categories, but every categorie should only respect one thing and not maybe 3. :/ (\s/)

I think the use of subcategories will outline a basic list of what each judge should look for. Not only that, but it might actually help out the maker, too. They just spent a majority of their week making a game and pouring their heart into it, and many of them wish to continue making or improving their games. For example (using Polish again), it might really help them to see: Visuals - 5.5/10. Audio - 7.9/10. Whatever else - 9,000+/10.
That's exactly what I wanted to say. It would help to improve. The way it is now, it's only depressing to see, you totally failed on everything. You're a waste, give up on making games. That is what I get out of that scoring, sorry to say that. But I needed to shout it out and let it out, really sorry. But it's my point. :'( (\s/)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 03:14:42 AM by Octavia »

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I wrongfully assumed all judges were required to review and explain their scores. Every judge giving comments and explaining why they scored the way they did should be an enforced rule. If you do that, then people will stop complaining about the categories for scores because they'll already know why they're earning the points they are.

Judges should also be forced to go back and re-evaluate scores to avoid arbitrary inflation and judges shouldn't be doing any judging until all games are turned in. The problem sounds like judges need some rules.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 03:19:43 AM by King HaloOfTheSun »
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Judging just got a lot more intense.

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I wrongfully assumed all judges were required to review and explain their scores. Every judge giving comments and explaining why they scored the way they did should be an enforced rule. If you do that, then people will stop complaining about the categories for scores because they'll already know why they're earning the points they are.

Judges should also be forced to go back and re-evaluate scores to avoid arbitrary inflation and judges shouldn't be doing any judging until all games are turned in. The problem sounds like judges need some rules.
I SHALL NOT BE SILENCED (because I already typed this out and don't want to have wasted my time ok)

I just think that kind of system is unnecessarily overcomplicated. We have 4 succinct, all-encompassing categories that should be easy to understand.

Errr... Polish, maybe. But it says "visuals and audio" and out of nowhere, it seems like it includes other stuff that has to do with polish (whereas I took it literally as nothing but visuals and audio).

Gameplay is typically a good guideline, but its very, very broad.

Ingenuity is the most confusing one. I think it should be split up or watered down or just explained better.

Entertainment is a tough call, though. The other guidelines are going to have influence over it, such as a game with many bugs being scored lowly on this because it annoyed the judge and ruined their fun. Also, this is probably the worst genre for constructive criticism. When the judges say "you're game ain't fun," that's probably the most likely thing to keep me from actually finishing the game. Especially because most games aren't as fun in their beta phases.


I think the use of subcategories will outline a basic list of what each judge should look for. Not only that, but it might actually help out the maker, too. They just spent a majority of their week making a game and pouring their heart into it, and many of them wish to continue making or improving their games. For example (using Polish again), it might really help them to see: Visuals - 5.5/10. Audio - 7.9/10. Whatever else - 9,000+/10.

If everything is broken down, it'll be much easier to see what can be improved, while also not putting too much pressure on the judges to have to write comments for everything (though comments are always helpful).

Spoiler for More Example whee:

Polish:

Visuals - ?/10
Audio - ?/10
Writing - ?/10


Gameplay:

Playability - ?/10
Mechanics - ?/10
Balance - ?/10


Ingenuity

Freshness :mad: - ?/10
Entertainment - ?/10
Direction - ?/10



(I just filled in randomly somewhat suiting stuff. The contents would require further debate, considering if anyone likes this.)

I 100% agree with both of these posts.

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The judging system is fine and I feel this entire conversation is pointless.


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I think the debate and thoughts aren't pointless. But the drama surely is. :mad:



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disregard me i suck cocks
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 06:44:56 AM by Queen Boob »


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oh boy here we go
:tinysmile:

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tension just multiplied by 100 in here
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Am confused. :irock2:

Okay, here's what happened from my perspective:

Strike posted that, I took it at face value. I didn't even talk to him hardly once during the GIAW, and I trust Aco and Strike weren't going to cheat, either way. (As it later turns out, it wasn't our game that he wanted to win).

Next, I asked for a more detailed list with everyone's scores, not specific judge scores.

Then finally, I saw the whole ingenuity thing and tried to debate that in a civil manner. I was kinda bummed out, but I didn't think it was aggressive or the driving force behind this whole thing. I just wanted to inquire. o.o I'm not even upset at Exhydra at all.

Don't know if me eyes help or not. o.o
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to be specific I think beta tester should have won because it was the most complete and engaging game out of the entire group. anyone who assumed i was judging with my cock was incorrect.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 06:35:26 AM by Strike Reyhi »

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Gracie you sound like you're being kind of harsh.. :o

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let's just put this to bed shall we. no more score drama. I'm not the only judge, the average has spoken, Z is the winner. if we're going to revamp the judging guidelines we should do so in rmrk advanced.

Octavia, never give up making games. You improved tenfold over the last game in a week you entered even if it wasn't finished. Hell it sounds like you only got to work on it for like 4 days at most.

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Alright, that'll do. No more of this. If somebody with the power to do so would like to split the debate from the topic you're most welcome to.

Judges should not challenge the final results without presenting appropriate grounds. Contestants should not, out of the spirit of the contest, argue the scores. The scores exist to provide constructive criticism, and highlight strength and weaknesses in the game's design.
That being said, the way games are being judged is currently being reconsidered, though it's unlikely the categories will be changed. It's possible we'll mandate a more review-style judging scheme (without sending the host a book on each game ronald :mad: ).

screw you strike i wanted to quell it :mad:
it's like a metaphor or something i don't know

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I personally don't think there's even anything wrong about questioning or debating, if its done in a more civil manner.

But this? Yeah, this got a little bad. :mad:

I feel like I was in labor for this entire thread and just now gave birth.
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I feel like I finally pooped after 4 days of not pooping. I guess that's the same thing you said, though.
:tinysmile:

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Only 9 months instead, yeah. :mad:
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Quote of the year.


o.O
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(without sending the host a book on each game ronald :mad: ).

Legends of Gilia: GIAW Judge Wars

Vol 1 of 20

Seriously though, I think some judge discussion could be a good thing, but it would only serve to lengthen the judging process, which may not be worth it to some.

But judging is intense and time consuming. Perhaps not as bad as creating, but still. It may be wise to implement a judging timeline, which may have been done in the past, and just say that all scores will be submitted in two weeks (or some other number) and scores not submitted by that point will not be counted.

I dunno.

I'm just a guy.

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What about this?:


Balance - Was the difficulty curve fair to a player just starting the game? Did it present challenges that made no sense in the context given? If you died, were you laughing and smiling or frustrated? This is not "omg this game is too hard", it's "Is this game providing me with the knowledge necessary to beat the challenges it presents?" Some games are hard. Some people don't like hard games. This doesn't make the game worse.

Polish - Was the map design strong? Was the music fitting? Where there sound effects in the right places? This is not "Omg they used all default rpg maker stuff burn him" it's "Does it work? Does it set a mood properly? Does it feel right? Does this piece of music make sense for this situation? Do the sound effects make the scene more believable?"

Bugginess - Were there textures you could walk through? Did you get any error messages? Did the game stall at any points?

Mechanics - Are the mechanics being used in interesting ways? Are they repeated over and over again? This is not "Have I seen this mechanic before". For example, if the mechanic is smacking things, do you always smack the same things? Or do you start smacking new things that make it interesting?

Conveyance - Do you have a decent idea of where to go at all times? Is it clear what everything does? Was there ever a point where you said "wtf do I do?" or "why is that happening...?" When you fail/succeed, do you understand why and have a decent idea of what you could have done better?

Build Up - Is there a feeling that the game escalates? Is the ending satisfying? Were the way encounters (of any kind) introduced powerful in their tone? This is not, "omg explosions this game is epic" this is, if the game has a dark mood, did the build up to the Shadow Fiend at the end of the game feel right. If the game is a dating sim and you are trying to go out with the super hunk from your school, did the build up to the date feel right. Overall, this is, "did the game make you feel engaged or excited at some point during the game?" If a boss just comes out of no where, that's not build up. If a boss is introduced before hand, teases you a bit and finally kills your best friend at the top of the mountain and you have to solo two of them, now we have build up.
This sounds pretty straightforward to me.

Otherwise GIAW should have categories just because there are TEAM ENTRIES.

A team with a writer, a mapper/eventer and a graphist will outrange single projects
One single person looking for resources, adapting them, searching for time to get maps, scripts, events, and modify graphics, testing bugs it's titanic.

And if this wasn't enough, teams are made of people skilled in what they should do: Graphist are skilled in doing sprites, backgrounds, etc, writers barely need to check grammar or spelling, scripters and mappers just do that.

That's why i think these guidelines are good balanced, they help single makers to reach high levels of competition that otherwise hardly (or not at all) will be reached against teams.

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I like it for the reasons that Yuyubabe said. It lets me know why my project sucked/was amazing. I think a cool part of competition with anything is you can learn from it and improve. If you don't see judges scores (at least the averaged ones) and don't see any comments...it leaves you asking why you got what you got. With the current judging system I think it's a bit hard to see why you got certain scores. When it's divided up more, it's easier to see where you can improve and judging can be a lot fairer as you aren't split. For example, if someone has great visuals but terrible audio, they'll get a bad polish score. Bad story good gameplay? Bad entertainment score.

At a second glance I remember I said that map errors would go in polish, but I think it makes more sense where I put it in the thing you just quoted (bugs). Basically, Bugs are any time you say "Yeeeeeah don't think that was suppose to happen".

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You only missed Halo pooping.




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The recipe for disaster:

1. People state their opinions
2. People argue in response those opinions
3. People take things personally
4. People make a big deal out of the whole thing
????
Drama.
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Spoiler for More Example whee:

Polish:

Visuals - ?/10
Audio - ?/10
Writing - ?/10


Gameplay:

Playability - ?/10
Mechanics - ?/10
Balance - ?/10


Ingenuity

Freshness :mad: - ?/10
Entertainment - ?/10
Direction - ?/10



(I just filled in randomly somewhat suiting stuff. The contents would require further debate, considering if anyone likes this.)
I like this way of judging, you would clearly see, what needs to be better and what is okay. You also see what can have a bit less time next time. ;)
I think an extra point for bugs would be great, because you can say you remove ... points of the project for ... amount of minor bugs/major bugs.

Minor Bug -0.1 per minor bug (infinite items, decision who has no effect, sound bug, map errors [strange looking mapping])
Major Bug -1 per major bug (infinite Event loop, map errors [passable walls], game shut downs)

I know that is again about personal liking and disliking, but that is how judging work after all. ;)
That's why there is not only one judge, that's why there are many. (\s/)

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Spoiler for More Example whee:

Polish:

Visuals - ?/10
Audio - ?/10
Writing - ?/10


Gameplay:

Playability - ?/10
Mechanics - ?/10
Balance - ?/10


Ingenuity

Freshness :mad: - ?/10
Entertainment - ?/10
Direction - ?/10



(I just filled in randomly somewhat suiting stuff. The contents would require further debate, considering if anyone likes this.)
I like this way of judging, you would clearly see, what needs to be better and what is okay. You also see what can have a bit less time next time. ;)
I think an extra point for bugs would be great, because you can say you remove ... points of the project for ... amount of minor bugs/major bugs.

Minor Bug -0.1 per minor bug (infinite items, decision who has no effect, sound bug, map errors [strange looking mapping])
Major Bug -1 per major bug (infinite Event loop, map errors [passable walls], game shut downs)

I know that is again about personal liking and disliking, but that is how judging work after all. ;)
That's why there is not only one judge, that's why there are many. (\s/)

Removing points for bugs is dumb unless they actually affect the game in a bad way. If the bugs arent a problem, ignore them. All GIAW games have bugs because of the time limit. Most judges do not detract points for them unless they're game breaking or adversely effect the experience.