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Things you hate in the Frontal Battle System

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I am making a simple study. For the series of RPG Maker, we always had the Frontal Battle System. If you watched the PR Video back then of RPG Maker VX, the speaker said: "you'll know it when you use it, this is the best system" pertaining to the Frontal Battle System.
 
Do you agree that Frontal Battle System is indeed the best battle system? So, first, let me take a clear definition of WHAT I SEE in the Frontal Battle System that RPG Maker offers us. It lacks style. For some people who have no ways to make the frontal battle system upgraded, there would be a lot who would be quite disappointed about your game's battle sequence, let alone it is turn based. Literally though, there are a lot of gamers out there that won't play your games especially if it is turn based. But exclude me from those people I just mentioned. I love turn based. To be honest I don't really like ABSes that much, since I've only enjoyed quite a few from company made games and indie games that used Action Battle Systems or those we call Hack and Slash type of games.
 
So to the point, what are the things you hate in the frontal battle system? Take note that I am not only pertaining to the RPG Maker's frontal battle system but also other games out there that uses the same style. What are the things you'd recommend that should be inside the frontal battle system?
 
Many users of the RPG Maker engine had always had their cries over a custom battle system. Some likes a CTB (Conditional Turn), ATB (Active Time), RTB (Real Time), SBS (Side View), ABS (Action Battle), Platformer (like Castlevania's Battle System), and more. I am one of those people. Speaking as a user, I like to see new things getting implemented in my game. But hey, shots fired.

Do you think it would sell if we upgrade it? What makes the Frontal battle system the ones RPG Maker offer us? If it was the only existing battle system we can use, in which way would you make it :"more enjoyable"?
 
The point of this conversation is also to stir up ideas how I (and other people probably who is willing to) would be able to make a cure of it through scripting. I wanted to make it more your time as we play a game someday using the new and modified frontal battle system.


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I absolutely hate the frontal battle system. When I first started using RPG Maker (I joined in the VX era), I was pretty happy with everything BUT the battle system. I literally battle tested, stared for a moment, and said "really"? RPG Maker is a pretty decent (yet simple) developer's tool. It was kind of silly to see such a cheap-looking battle system. Before that, I used RPG Maker 3. It was extremely inflexible (because console), but the battle system was at least good looking.

I usually dig up a simple SBS or just make games that don't even involve battles. The issue with the SBS systems is that they tend to look silly unless you use character sprites as battlers. Otherwise, your sprites are just fighting a big, non-moving picture. Yet, it can be challenging to find enough enemy battlers that actually match each other (assuming you use monsters in your game).

I would actually like to see more Fire Emblem-ish battle systems out there. Mostly just having the actors fight their own battles with short cutscenes. B) I think something quick-and-simple would fit in well with RPG Maker in general. It's hard to make a fun battle system in RPG Maker, so I think anything that moves quickly would be a good idea. The worst is when I'm stuck fighting some epix boss for 30 whopping turn-based minutes. ;_;

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Maybe a mixture of both? Perhaps the actors can fight cutscene-style in waves. Every time a battle starts, whoever has more AGI will attack first. Say, the player has more AGI. He will then strike first, and then the enemy will strike next. After that, if the player has a certain amount of more AGI than the enemy, he can strike a second time (or vice versa). If both are still alive, the player will then get the choice to either attack again, "swap out" for another actor, or escape.

Healing can probably be done outside of battle (from the menu), or maybe during battle at the cost of the actor's attack. It's a little weird (I think), but I just thought of it on the spot. :V
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I think the reason Enterbrain gave us a Front View battle system was ease of use for the Users.

When I first started using XP, I had a hard time figuring out the layers, but eventually got used to it.  Then VX came out and they redid all the mapping and basically dumbed it town.  I know they dumbed it down because people probably complained that the Layer Mapping System was too much for them to understand.  Problem was they dumbed it down so much that I found it practically unusable.  I think the same thing happened with the Battle System.

Sure, Enterbrain could have chosen to give us another type of battle system, ANY other type of battle system.  But those other Battle Systems would have been total overload for inexperienced users.  I can understand that what they wanted to do was give everyone an Engine where they could just throw in some enemies, configure Hit Points and Agility and Exp, and away you go, you got a game!  Problem is that the standard battle system is just WAY over-simplified.  And games made with the Default Front View Battle System suffer as a result.  However, another type of Battle System would have required too much effort by most to be able to put together an entire game.  If it took a person a week to get one battle working as expected, no game would ever be completed due to the complexity.

They really could have given us a bunch more options.  A Default Battler Animation would have been really nice.  Things like Attack Pose or Attacked Pose or Cast Pose would have been great.  But there is a downside to that as well.  Its a lot of effort to put together the Art for each of those poses.  Not by Enterbrain, but by the average user.  Our average user around here probably doesnt have the artistic skill necessary to create an Enemy, let alone an Enemy with all those additional poses.

Some dedicated members of the community have put together other types of Battle Systems, and created the artwork necessary for them.  The most popular ones have gathered a handful of people to put together more graphics for those battle systems.  So I think Enterbrain was incorrectly concluded that there would be no resources created by the community for other styles of battle systems.

There is always a tradeoff.

One of the problems we have with our Defaults of our editors is that the editors themselves offer an easier interface than mucking with Lines of Script.  I put together a script that allows for SOME animations in battle.  And I think what I came up with is also just way too complex for the average person to use.  It needs to be given a GUI, an Interface directly with the Editor itself.  If we had at least had that, Animations could have been much easier for the community to learn how to incorporate.  So sure, scripts do their job and can work just fine, but the tradeoff is that scripts are usually very confusing and intimidating for newcomers to the Engines.  And lets face it, one of the things that made RPG Maker so popular was its simplicity.  There are other engines out there, but they are no where nearly as easy to use as RPG Maker.  Thus, too many features have the potential to just be overload, and would actually cause less sales.  The more complex engines cost more to put together, and if sales go down instead of up, they will decide on simplicity over features.  Hence, a Front View Battle System.

The Front View Battle System in and of itself isnt bad, it is excessively simple.  What contributes to it being percieved as "bad" is those lack of features that are easy to implement.  Lacking any sort of Battler Animations is another big drawback, and that, by itself, could have made the default battles much more interesting.  Its that excessive simplicity that drives Players away, not Creators.  Creators can create visually stunning Maps, but when it comes to the Battle System, they are almost all stuck looking exactly the same as every other game created with that version of RPG Maker.  And players will get turned off by this.  Different graphics and different skins just dont allow enough creative control over the Battles to make the games themselves really shine.

Enterbrain would also have to deal heavily with Copyright issues.  If they created something that supported Piracy, or theft of content made by others, they'd get their asses sued!  The users are much less likely to get sued, and Enterbrain themselves would be looked at the same way as the courts looked at Napster.  Napster did not steal music themselves, but they provided a tool to distribute stolen content.  Bittorrent is also a company.  Bitttorrent, and the entire torrent network is actually owned by CBS, yes, the same CBS that makes TV shows.  Bittorrent is also decentralized, Napster was not.  And this is how the courts would look at RPG Maker if they had been designed as a tool that supported copyright infringement.  Taking ones graphics out of a game is just as bad as stealing the game itself.  We may not agree on this, but this is the position that the companies that go to court will take.  This may have been addressed by Enterbrain deciding to not copy Battle Systems from existing games, or make their Battle System so similar that copyrighted content would have been used in place of the graphics they provided.

Enterbrain could have also been sued if they simply duplicated the functionality of other popular Battle Systems.  If they had done everything in their power to make the Battle System just like any of the Final Fantasy Battle Systems, again, they'd be sued.  However, this is a bit different than the previous situation as users can create their own Battle Systems that do copy the Style of any RPG without fear of reprisal from companies.  So if I stole graphics from Final Fantasy, thats Copyright Infringement.  But if I put together a script that makes the battle system work exactly like Final Fantasy, that oddly enough is not copyright infringement, because Im not actually using their system.  Yes, it does add to the potential for others to use a script to distribute copyrighted material, but since the scripters arent profitting from creating those scripts, they arent considered that much of a threat.  Basically, its the same way as downloading a movie, or being the one that goes to the theater and records a movie to sell and distribute.

Now, that all being said, I think there are some very good Front View Battle Systems that have come out in the many years that RPG Games, not just RPG Maker games, but RPG Games in general.  A lesser known game called Phantasy Star also used a Front View Battle System, and it had some flaws, but had some strengths as well.  For one, the battlers were animated.  Heavily animated, for games in its time.  Final Fantsy, by comparison was no where nearly as heavily animated, yet, due to its storytelling style, became a much more popular game.  This is back in the 16 bit generation of game consoles, so were not talking Final Fantasy X or any of the 3D games.  And even way back in the day, there were more animated Front View Battle Systems than the ones that Enterbrain gave us.  So yes, I do understand the frustration with the default battle system.

There is another thing to consider when using more complex Battle Systems, and that is whether or not your Players will be able to use them.  I've played many an RPG game, and there have been quite a few that I could not stand their Battle Systems.  Implementation of Cards, battles that took too long, unbalanced, etc.  Now, an average idiot will be able to pick up any game using any Default Battle System of any of the RPG Maker series, and they can damn near immediately understand how to win a battle.  Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter, I never beat, battles took too long, and was unbalanced.  RPG Maker Games are fairly easy to balance battles.  Some other battle systems are no where nearly as easy to balance the gameplay.  Sure, they look pretty, and unique, but are more difficult to balance.

The thing is, the Default Battle System can benefit from a couple of things.  Some are Graphical.  Animated Battlers for one.  Other things that can improve the Battle System is functionality.  In my "Collection", I use a Front View Battle System that also has an ATB system and a crapton of added functionality.  Blizzard wrote one of the scripts included called Reflect.  Reflect is one of those staple tradmarks of Final Fantasy.  KK20 wrote another script that allows "switching targets", which allows Item and Spell usage on Enemies, and casting harmful spells on the party.  Combined with Reflect, this adds a lot of complexity to the battles.  I wrote another script that allows Healing Items and Spells to harm Undead.  It provides usefulness to the Reflect and Target Anyone scripts.  The XRXS Battle System (Front View) rewards strategic thinking over battles of attrition.  I also wrote a bunch of scripts that try to enhance Battle Eventing.  Battle Eventing is one of those really important things that make the boring Front View battle system better, by adding strategy and varying gameplay.

I think the biggest problem with most RPG Maker Games in general is that they focus purely on battles of attrition.  The rare game will come along and require strategy to defeat an enemy, but still make it easy and fun.  And that is really the entire point, to make FUN games for Players.  That is what many of the scripts in my "Collection" try to do, as do most other Battle System scripts, is to make games more FUN for players.  Cant beat this boss because it constantly heals itself?  Cast Reflect on the Enemy and let the Enemy heal your party!  Then you can win!  Strategy.  Group of Zombies and its just you and a Healer?  Have your Healer cast some Heals on the Zombies and kill them with ease!  Uh oh, the boss just cast Reflect on itself and it is only suseptible to Magic Attacks?  Better cast Mirror Breaker so you can hurt the boss!  This enemy keeps healing the boss?  Better kill that enemy before taking on the Main Boss!  Have a Hostage ane Exp Bonus / Exp Penalty when dealing with the Hostage, in Battle!  All possible because of Battle Eventing!  Its still simple enough to beat quickly, and speed is part of the reward.

I think we may be asking the wrong question.  Instead of asking about "Things you hate in the Frontal Battle System", we should be asking "What can make ANY Battle System more FUN for Players"?  A bit more complexity without being too complex?  A few more features like Reflect or Heals that hurt Zombies?  Hostages?  Animation?  Moving enemies around?  Being able to do "Pincer Attacks"?  What makes some battle systems fun and others tedious and confusing?  Battle Systems are more than just Graphics.  Ive taken the standard graphics and enhanced the way battles work to try to make them more fun for Players.  I also tried to make it easy for creators to create.  I pulled out Limits that prevented more creativity.  I decided to not dumb things down too much and remove the ability to have creativity.  Most other battle systems sacrifice looking pretty at the expense of not being able to do battle events at all.  It tries to maintain that Balance between offering a Tradeoff, and eliminating the expense.  Just because a creature is Animated doesnt make the game that much more fun; it needs more.  It needs to make sense.  Fire and Water are opposing elements.  Thus, a fire creature that attacks with Fire will be suseptible to Water elements.  The Opposing Elements concept is one that is easy for Players to understand and incorporate into their gameplay style.  But constantly mashing "Attack" and winning every battle without healing will become boring to almost every player after a while.  And to overcome this, something small that can be done without scripts would be to have a Flame Sword equipped when going up against Water Creatures.  Still mashing away, but its a tiny bit of strategy that I think most players will appreciate.

So really, what can we do to make Battle Systems more fun for Players while keeping it simple enough for creators to create games that are fun for Players?  I think that is the BIG question that needs to be addressed.

(For any that are interested, my "Collection" is available for download on the Scripts section of this site, or over at Chaos Project.)
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The above statement, this is a great value for me and many people here.

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Are you a bot? ._.

Is it a new bot thing to post on random topics and rack up your posts for some evil bot scheme ?!
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The above statement, this is a gnar-gnar value for me and many people here.
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boe was a spambot all along?!
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That post gave me much information. Thank you for sharing the knowledge.
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According to what I've heard from many scripters, the frontal battle system is the easiest to work from. Since it's so basic, making scripts to add to or change this system is said to be much easier than if it were side view. Considering that I'm not a scripter myself and that a side view battle system was only ever done for RM2K3 at the default, and that 2K3 did not have a scripting option, I cannot contest if this is actually true or not, nor could I tell you how a scripter can say how easy or difficult it would be when no maker has ever had a default side view along with scripting capabilities at the same time.

Not to mention that 2K3 also has an option for front view, which doesn't get used very often but it's still there (from what I've seen) - unless it was through one of the David or Goliath patches, I don't know - but that should tell you that having both systems in place is doable and EB should consider adding back the option for having both.

All that said, though, no I don't hate Front View Battle Systems, but rather how it's been executed in RPG Maker since XP. Yes, XP added front view party battlers, but did so half-assed to the point it was worthless (the party faces the player, not the enemy, and covers up all the necessary information you need - HP/MP - making it difficult to focus on the battle while straining your eyes to see your stats). Rather than fix this, though, they decided to remove this feature completely and go back to front view text. Similar to what you get in RM2K (not 2K3), but somehow I still feel the front view battle system was handled better in 2K than in XP, VX, and Ace - go figure.

Yanfly offers some easy to use script changes to spice up the front view, and I have to wonder why EB never bothered to even add the most basic features to do this themselves. Heck, Dragon Warrior (Quest) has used the front view for quite awhile and managed to make it more appealing than what we've seen in VX/Ace.

Okay, my favorite of the isometric battle systems has always been what the developer did in the XP game Last Scenario. The view is perfect, and it works well. But if we can't get that, the least EB can do is include front view party battlers in the system by default, like we had with XP, but make it so the battlers face the enemy and doesn't cover up necessary stat information.