The RPG Maker Resource Kit

Firstly what is the War on Terror:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Terrorism

Now I sit on the Fence on this one... I think if people hate their leaders so much that they form an army of their own in a hope to topple that ruler how can that be wrong...?  The French did it... But at the same time if one of these factions aims at toppling a neighbouring state or opens a War with another country, what then...? (Some thing had to be done about 9/11, But should we have looked more into the reasons why terroist decided to attack like they did ?)

Reading the link given above you can see both sides of the debate clearly outlined... I hate all war, and I hate this one more than any as most of the Time terrorist only attack thoughs that are harming their country, ideals or religion, all things I would defend with my life should I have to... A Terrorist could be any one, your brother, farther, sister... just some one that feels wronged but those that abuse power...

A War on Terror is a no win War... Terrorists are a countries freedom fighters or Hero's... It would have been like in the 60's declarring war on the hippy's (Not a Bad idea)...LOL

Almost every country has its own Terrorist like faction those that go against the goverment... Not that I am backing what they do or say but many a time they have good reason to become a Freedom fighter / Activist / Terrorist depending on what faction or agender they have...

Some times countries actually back or Fund Terrorist groups who want to over through a Dictator that oppresses their people... or some times they back them as they have a simular interest or Goal...

A good examples of Terrorist backing is the USA's Backing of the IRA:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army

(There's lots of reading in the link, but scroll down to Support from other countries and organisations

In my eyes for America to take on this role when they have funded and help train factions through-out history is fairly Hypocritical...  Some times I know working with Terrorist was a good way of building a stroger force and using a terrorists network and knowledge of the country can give the upperhand in combat... like the support the USA gave the Taliban against Russia...

Some times over throwing a Terrorist faction could result in more hate from the people of the country... its very easy to be seen as an enemy if you take away a countries glimmer of hope that a terrorist faction can give, there by fueling future terrorist cells...

I wish the War on Terror every sucsess, but some times taking out the peoples private army may have to backed with removing the problem thats causing the up-set like the leader of that nation... do that too often and your going to look like your policing the world and may get branded Nartzi... Or people may start liking your leader to Hitler, or making faulse claims / miss-trusting or even wanting to topple them for abuse of power...

I find it odd that the FBI's most want terrorist feature mainly Muslims:- http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/fugitives.htm

I mean the IRA have been blowing the English up for years... and just cuz they have announced they wont any more, some how they have been forgotten about...  >:(

So because of America's past actions we aren't allowed to identify terrorist organizations? To treat the War on Terror as a military operation is a huge mistake, but the general idea of ending terrorist activities throughout the globe isn't.

Terrorist groups aren't just rebels. Terrorists are the ones who blow up bombs in marketplaces and burn villages before raping the women who live there. They aren't brave freedom fighters, they are predators preying on civilians. The NRA was a terrorist organization because they blew up car in cities. Hezbollah might have been freedom fighters when Israel was occupying southern Lebanon but now they are terrorists because they fire rockets into Israeli settlements. The reason so many terrorist groups are Muslim is because terrorist tactics are extremely popular in Muslim countries (almost all of which are third world nations), not because the US government is racist.

To expand on Jesus Hitler's points, make sure to read about guerillas on Wikipedia. Because guerilla (= freedom fighter) != terrorist.
Examples! Viet Cong, the Taliban in the Afghanistani-Soviet War, the Sandinistas of Nicaragua, the militias currently combatting Coalition troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, etc.

Also, as JH said, the military operations is only one facet of the War on Terror. I can give you some examples of non-military operations (operations other than war) conducted by the military and other organisations, such as Operation Enduring Freedom-Philippines. Of course, there's also a good deal of politics, police work, etc.

Quote from: gonorrhoea on January 10, 2007, 06:22:43 PM
To expand on Jesus Hitler's points, make sure to read about guerillas on Wikipedia. Because guerilla (= freedom fighter) != terrorist.
Examples! Viet Cong, Al-Qaeda in the Afghanistani-Soviet War,

Fixed.

I would like to point out that at that point in time Al-Qaeda were freedom fighters, since they fought an opposing army (Soviet invasion forces) in a successful attempt to defend Afghanistan. They became terrorists later, when their activities were not directed towards military targets but civilian ones.

All very vaild points... I am not trying to tarnish America in this thread... I just think if there is to be a War on Terror it needs to be more Global, I know it has much backing, I just wish a different country other than America would take the front seat... Not being funny or trying to up-set any one, but I think more tact and proffesionalisum should go into a War on Terror, its a very clever War... Its not all about who has the biggest guns, Iraq proved that... In theory the War on Terror is a good one, carrying out could escalte into some thing ugly and the first people to start throwing the punches will be held as the agressor, a War on Terror could turn quickly into an Unholy War in many muslims eyes...

Terrorist are not killers and thats the actually words of a very famous Terrorist, they see them selves as libetators... And the only reason they are marked as Terroists is the UN brands them as such, many terroist factions will state they are not using Terror tactics and don't like being labeled in the way that they are...

To give a larger picture of the terrorist factions the War on Terror may have to cover see this list:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_groups

Some countries have been trying to stamp out these pockets (terrorist) them-selves but have failed, and doing so only seems to make them stronger... if you go up against a Terrorist group and loose its going to earn them more respect from their people and followers, they will grow in numbers, and they have a passion unlike any most of us could imagine... Should American troops be pulled out of Iraq to early its going to get messy, if they are pulled out too late and they still have no winning situation its going to look worst... I am not sure any thing, not even pride can be pulled back out of Iraq... I feel so sorry for the troops out there they have given it there all with poor eqipement and support... there thoughts on the War have fallen on deaf ears...

I am not trying to BIG up terrorist or how they go about things, what I am saying is for years we have supported and helped them grow, we have used them... In effect abused them... we have then hurt their people or changed the rules and gone back on words... There can be many reasons why people feel wronged... Read how Bin Larden feals and you will see what I mean, Try and see him as a fellow country man, Prentend your a Muslim for a mo... he is an intelligent person, may be more so than some heads of state:- http://english.aljazeera.net/news/archive/archive?ArchiveId=7403

Most leaders of these factions are very influential and intelligent people, and they will exploit every avenue to turn your attacks against you and use their own to their advantage...I don't know the best way to beat a Terrorist faction, I mean the 1st Rule is you don't negotiate with Terrorists... So if you can't talk to em, or Ignore them, that pretty much leaves killing them as the only option... and thats when the visous circle starts again... Terrorists are not just the factions you see with the Guns they are the People, they are an Ideal, until the people change the factions will always be re-plenished...

The ONLY way to win would be to leave nothing, no people with views or Ideals of thouse of the Terrorist, but thats Genicide...

Quote from: landofshadows on January 10, 2007, 11:15:47 PM
I just think if there is to be a War on Terror it needs to be more Global

It is, though, y'know, since terrorism itself is global.

QuoteI think more tact and proffesionalisum should go into a War on Terror, its a very clever War... Its not all about who has the biggest guns, Iraq proved that...

Uh, there's quite a bit of professionalism in the War on Terror, despite certain hindrances such as overbureacracy, but that exists nearly everywhere. Also, no one said it's about the biggest guns. The point is combining well-trained troops and technology that can coordinate fire from missiles, artillery, etc.

QuoteIn theory the War on Terror is a good one, carrying out could escalte into some thing ugly and the first people to start throwing the punches will be held as the agressor, a War on Terror could turn quickly into an Unholy War in many muslims eyes...

...

QuoteTerrorist are not killers and thats the actually words of a very famous Terrorist, they see them selves as libetators...

So does pretty much every militia/military and their people. Doesn't mean it's true.

QuoteSome countries have been trying to stamp out these pockets (terrorist) them-selves but have failed, and doing so only seems to make them stronger... if you go up against a Terrorist group and loose its going to earn them more respect from their people and followers, they will grow in numbers, and they have a passion unlike any most of us could imagine...

So you're suggesting letting them do their terrorist thing then? Even the ones that bomb office buildings, set mines on public roads that blow up schoolbuses, terrorise populations into submission, etc.?

Quotewhat I am saying is for years we have supported and helped them grow, we have used them...

Sigh.

QuoteMost leaders of these factions are very influential and intelligent people, and they will exploit every avenue to turn your attacks against you and use their own to their advantage...

And we will do the same to them.

QuoteI don't know the best way to beat a Terrorist faction, I mean the 1st Rule is you don't negotiate with Terrorists... So if you can't talk to em, or Ignore them, that pretty much leaves killing them as the only option... and thats when the visous circle starts again... Terrorists are not just the factions you see with the Guns they are the People, they are an Ideal, until the people change the factions will always be re-plenished...

In my opinion, the best way is a combination of police/military work, negotiations with other nations and groups, and psychological warfare (tried very successfully in the Philippines!)

QuoteThe ONLY way to win would be to leave nothing, no people with views or Ideals of thouse of the Terrorist, but thats Genicide...

When I rule the world I'm going to bind my people with the common threat, the hindrance to the advancing of all mankind- Arabs.

I was American.

But were do they get the right to change an entire country? America had the right to destroy Iraq, not own it.

When looking at war you cannot try to justify in any way. The only mentality is it just has to be done. While even though there is no chance the States could take any form of terrorism sitting down ( even though they may be the direct blame ), does it truly give them the authority to claim a country when they are in the most powerful ( and apparently Intelligent ) position?

This message is the same to Missionaries: IT IS FUCKING IMMORAL TO CHANGE AND MANIPULATE CULTERS LESS DEVELPOED THEN YOU.

I have no problem with War, Any War, I love it. Just don't try to justify it.

Btw, LoS, forgot to mention how funny I think it is that you were OK with the genocide in North Korea.

Quote from: Deliciously_Saucy on January 11, 2007, 02:05:25 AM
But were do they get the right to change an entire country? America had the right to destroy Iraq, not own it.

It'd be better to destroy Iraq then set up a puppet government?

QuoteWhen looking at war you cannot try to justify in any way.

Actually, you can.

QuoteIT IS FUCKING IMMORAL TO CHANGE AND MANIPULATE CULTERS LESS DEVELPOED THEN YOU.

Who defines morality? Also, missionaries don't see themselves and changing and manipulating cultures so much as 'bringing them the Word of God so that they may know Christ and go to Heaven when they kick the bucket' or whatever bullshit.

Quote]I have no problem with War, Any War, I love it. Just don't try to justify it.

...

Also, will you stop with these colours? They're annoying and don't serve to convey your meaning any better.

I  like  colours. To make that statement you can't type any bold, highlights or smileys without looking like a hypocritical bitch.  :)

Due to the oil situation in Iraq, it's making America look like whores. If they had just crushed their nation it would have looked like simple retaliation.

Right and Wrong do not exist, so morality doesn't either. Because it can't be defined, and using our societies current view point of being "Good" decent people, it's proper to leave things alone. If your not intelligent, and no one really is, then you should make the less destructive choice.

Edit: Until we admit we're all Evil, you can't justify war because there are always other more pacifistic choices. America's a Christian country, they chose that image and they have to stick with it. Separation of religion and state my ass.

Quote from: Deliciously_Saucy on January 11, 2007, 02:34:54 AM
To make that statement you can't type any bold, highlights or smileys without looking like a hypocritical bitch.  :)

Bold, highlights, and emoticons are different and less obnoxious.

QuoteDue to the oil situation in Iraq, it's making America look like whores. If they had just crushed their nation it would have looked like simple retaliation.

...
Oil is just one facet of the war in Iraq, and not one of the War on Terror. It would have been easier and more profitable to strike a deal with Saddam for oil. Furthermore, nation destroying is bad PR.

QuoteUntil we admit we're all Evil

Evil doesn't exist.

Quoteyou can't justify war because there are always other more pacifistic choices.

That's not true. Often war really is the best or even the only way to solve a perceived problem, examples being the Revolutionary War, World War II, etc.

QuoteEvil doesn't exist.

Yes, I believe I'm the one who said that. But your wrong, evil and good don't exist as pre existing ideals, but they are points of views making them exist as culturally changing notions. They exist, they just have no pre-drawn boundaries.

The problems I have with the War on terror is fighting it may only make it stronger... if you remove the problem that the factions have then may be the faction will dispand...?

So why not look at why the terrorists attack their targets... say the London bombings for example... The English helped back the War in Iraq and countless inocent people died... this up set a fair few people world over (Muslims mainly) Some born in England felt their people had been unlawfully targeted and tried to show the English public what blown appart inocent people look like... An Eye for an Eye if you like... So if we didn't back the Iraq conflict it may never of ended up on our door steps. But another way of handling things after the bombings I think we should have deported every direct family member back to Iraq, liquidated all of their assest, like their homes and cars and used that money to pay some of the compensation to the families who lost some one that day.

Terror shouldn't be tollerated, but I think it should be tackled in your own country rather than galivanting across the globe to tackle it.  Tighten security and set up a new law, for terrorists caught and detained, what ever their aim they get the death penalty, if they are in the street starting campaigns of hate, if they have a WEB site insighting hate in the aim to recruit extreamists within a state... Send a message to all terrorist fight your aims from home, come here and DIE !!!

Complying with the terrorists is the worst idea I've ever heard.

Quote from: Deliciously_Saucy on January 11, 2007, 07:19:16 AM
But your wrong, evil and good don't exist as pre existing ideals, but they are points of views making them exist as culturally changing notions. They exist, they just have no pre-drawn boundaries.

I wanted to say that before I read your post. :)
That's totally correct. Good and Evil are only points of views. Somebody who steals something to eat is considered "evil", because stealing is evil. But that person could have died if he didn't. He was mere trying to survive. That's doesn't make him evil, but stealing is evil, so it's just the point of view.

Even many Puritans think that stealing for survival isn't evil.
Or at least that's what they told me when I asked why Aladdin was stealing!!

QuoteComplying with the terrorists is the worst idea I've ever heard.

It's not complying, it's understanding them... Terrorists want to be heard for a reason, I am saying hear them out.

Some times intervention / Action is needed in terrorist activeties like the 9/11 incident, but I think rather than go over to Iraq and fight the War there, I think we should have held Bin Lardens Family captive until he surrenderd rather than flying them out, may be told him every 48 hours that pass with out his surrender would result in one of his family being ex-communicated and place in Antartica and stopped from ever returning to the country and the sale of a Family home (Or go one step further and put them to death), once he surrenderd then execute him, Fight Terror with Terror,  but on your own terms.

But its like I said Terrorist are made by and for the people, should a terrorist die there will be another in replcement that follows the same ideals as the terrorist, terroists can't be defeated unless the ideal is taken out of the mixture...

For Example:- A state that is being oppressed and moved by a neighbouring state through gradual occupation, the state being occupuied forms a small malitia and then uses drastic action to stop the occupation by showing their aggression by hitting those in the occupied area, rather than attacking head on with the neighbouring state as they would get wipped out... SO they Bomb area's that used to be under their own rule... (Terrorists, Yes...? Or defenders of their own way of life ?)... Now the only reason these terrorists are taking action is cuz of the occupation of their soil from a forgin body... Correct ?... So why was it OK for a Neighbouring state to attempt that... it should have been stopped before it got that far... so why not assist in relocating those wrongly occupying the area, and the if the Terrorist cell do not dispand give them say 3 months to declare a downing of arms or they will be forced to by an Armed force allocated by the UN...

Terrorists should be Disarmed and Dispanded rather than destroyed, destroying them will add to the fuel, it will make others become terrorist, it will make the terrorist marters and the people whom destroyed them the Terrorist enemy and the countries enemy...

I know every example differs and not all situations are so simple... I am think of Irland while writting the above... If we moved all the English back to England or a Majority back, it could even be gradual... Strike a deal with Irland that every family moved gets a grant funded by the downing of arms, so every time say 100 Families move back a certain weight of Weapons get destroyed... like Trade off's... Peace in exchange for peace... Each family gets a grant towards setting up a new life in England paid for what would normally fund a War.

Quote from: Blizzard on January 11, 2007, 12:03:42 PM

Quote from: Deliciously_Saucy on January 11, 2007, 07:19:16 AM
But your wrong, evil and good don't exist as pre existing ideals, but they are points of views making them exist as culturally changing notions. They exist, they just have no pre-drawn boundaries.

I wanted to say that before I read your post. :)
That's totally correct. Good and Evil are only points of views. Somebody who steals something to eat is considered "evil", because stealing is evil. But that person could have died if he didn't. He was mere trying to survive. That's doesn't make him evil, but stealing is evil, so it's just the point of view.

Yay! * Pats himself on back *. Oh I stole your Avatar and put it on my mom's computer desktop. lol. I love it. BTW you should change the caption to:
" What do you mean New Star Wars sucks?!?!?!?! "

landofshadows: Nice ideas, but just like comunism, I don't see them working in the real world. Very good point about making marters though.

Quote from: landofshadows on January 11, 2007, 01:15:09 PMSome times intervention / Action is needed in terrorist activeties like the 9/11 incident, but I think rather than go over to Iraq and fight the War there,

The invasion of Iraq was not part of an anti-terrorist campaign.

QuoteI think we should have held Bin Lardens Family captive until he surrenderd rather than flying them out, may be told him every 48 hours that pass with out his surrender would result in one of his family being ex-communicated and place in Antartica and stopped from ever returning to the country and the sale of a Family home (Or go one step further and put them to death), once he surrenderd then execute him, Fight Terror with Terror,  but on your own terms.

Are you fucking serious with this shit? Take people hostage because of who they're related to? The bin Laden family has gone to a lot of trouble to distance themselves from Osama. Also, you have to be the most inconsistent fuck I have ever encountered. It's okay if North Koreans commit genocide but the amount of gun deaths in the US is atrocious, and now we should try to understand the terrorists while using terrorist tactics ourselves?

QuoteBut its like I said Terrorist are made by and for the people, should a terrorist die there will be another in replcement that follows the same ideals as the terrorist, terroists can't be defeated unless the ideal is taken out of the mixture...

No shit.

QuoteFor Example:- A state that is being oppressed and moved by a neighbouring state through gradual occupation, the state being occupuied forms a small malitia and then uses drastic action to stop the occupation by showing their aggression by hitting those in the occupied area, rather than attacking head on with the neighbouring state as they would get wipped out... SO they Bomb area's that used to be under their own rule... (Terrorists, Yes...? Or defenders of their own way of life ?)...

How the fuck are your hypothetical terrorisstss defending their way of life? They aren't attacking the enemy in any way, because they're attacking their own fucking cities!

QuoteNow the only reason these terrorists are taking action is cuz of the occupation of their soil from a forgin body... Correct ?... So why was it OK for a Neighbouring state to attempt that... it should have been stopped before it got that far... so why not assist in relocating those wrongly occupying the area, and the if the Terrorist cell do not dispand give them say 3 months to declare a downing of arms or they will be forced to by an Armed force allocated by the UN...

Fighting terrorists will never work, so we're going to count to three and if they don't urrender we're going to... fight them anyway? Anyway, who said thtat all terrorism stems from foriegn occupation? There are plenty of terrorists who terrorize their home country, or go to another country to terrorize them.

QuoteTerrorists should be Disarmed and Dispanded rather than destroyed, destroying them will add to the fuel, it will make others become terrorist, it will make the terrorist marters and the people whom destroyed them the Terrorist enemy and the countries enemy...

don't see how destroying a terrorist organization will create a new one. The sasme thing would happen if a terrorist group disarmed and disbanded (you know, was destroyed): it would create a power vacuum and if the culture of the people has not changed then a new group will spring up in it place. Not because of the older group's martytdom, but because in certain countries is seen as a way to get what you want and i more effecting than voting.

QuoteI know every example differs and not all situations are so simple... I am think of Irland while writting the above... If we moved all the English back to England or a Majority back, it could even be gradual... Strike a deal with Irland that every family moved gets a grant funded by the downing of arms, so every time say 100 Families move back a certain weight of Weapons get destroyed... like Trade off's... Peace in exchange for peace... Each family gets a grant towards setting up a new life in England paid for what would normally fund a War.

Holy shit.

Quote from: landofshadows on January 11, 2007, 01:15:09 PM
It's not complying, it's understanding them... Terrorists want to be heard for a reason, I am saying hear them out.

Yes... it is. Also, I've already mentioned it's better just to attempt and erode their fanbase by diverting their affection towards legitimate governments and all that good stuff.

Quotebut I think rather than go over to Iraq and fight the War there

Iraq had practically nothing to do with terrorism, has this not been said many times? Do you have a learning disorder as well as dyslexia?

QuoteI think we should have held Bin Lardens Family captive until he surrenderd rather than flying them out, may be told him every 48 hours that pass with out his surrender would result in one of his family being ex-communicated and place in Antartica and stopped from ever returning to the country and the sale of a Family home (Or go one step further and put them to death), once he surrenderd then execute him, Fight Terror with Terror,  but on your own terms.

So we should strike civilian targets, too?

QuoteBut its like I said Terrorist are made by and for the people, should a terrorist die there will be another in replcement that follows the same ideals as the terrorist, terroists can't be defeated unless the ideal is taken out of the mixture...

Yes they can. Prime examples include the ETA in Basque, PIRA in Ireland. Has nationalism died out? There's also reduced Islamic terrorism in the Moro lands of the southern Philippines, but there's still Islam (radical and not).

QuoteFor Example:- A state that is being oppressed and moved by a neighbouring state through gradual occupation, the state being occupuied forms a small malitia and then uses drastic action to stop the occupation by showing their aggression by hitting those in the occupied area, rather than attacking head on with the neighbouring state as they would get wipped out... SO they Bomb area's that used to be under their own rule... (Terrorists, Yes...? Or defenders of their own way of life ?)... Now the only reason these terrorists are taking action is cuz of the occupation of their soil from a forgin body... Correct ?...

The more sensible thing to do in this situation would be to wage a guerilla war, as is being done in Iraq, was done in the Philippines when the US occuppied it after the Spanish-American War, was done in the Indochinese War, etc.

Quoteif the Terrorist cell do not dispand give them say 3 months to declare a downing of arms or they will be forced to by an Armed force allocated by the UN...

Hasn't the UN solved like, only one problem in the world through armed force? They're pretty good at causing fiascos in their interventions.

QuoteTerrorists should be Disarmed and Dispanded rather than destroyed, destroying them will add to the fuel, it will make others become terrorist, it will make the terrorist marters and the people whom destroyed them the Terrorist enemy and the countries enemy...

Not happening.

QuoteIf we moved all the English back to England or a Majority back, it could even be gradual... Strike a deal with Irland that every family moved gets a grant funded by the downing of arms, so every time say 100 Families move back a certain weight of Weapons get destroyed... like Trade off's... Peace in exchange for peace... Each family gets a grant towards setting up a new life in England paid for what would normally fund a War.

I hate mass relocations and population expulsions almost as much as genocides.

QuoteIraq had practically nothing to do with terrorism, has this not been said many times? Do you have a learning disorder as well as dyslexia?

Oh... No wonder you didn't find Bin Larden, if you have very little of Idea of the whole of the Al-Qaeda network:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda_in_Iraq

(I Have never corrected you as I didn't want to make you look like a Spaz, but as you try to pin on me the title of learning impared or Retard... See the above link)

QuoteI hate mass relocations and population expulsions almost as much as genocides.

When Hitler was killing off the Jews I think they preffered being moved than gassed in showers.

Jesus Hitler

You like the word Shit... Well done, in voicing your opinions so well...

My previous post are only suggestions alternatives, and its not like I sat down for a month working them out... Fair enough the Deportation or punishment of the Bin Larden Family is just as stupid as sending in a ground invasion... And thats been pretty much proven
________________________BUT THIS IS WHAT YOUR DOING INSTEAD________________

http://www.rense.com/general70/deathmde.htm (Link for info) [NSFW]

//please don't embed stuff like that, and remember to [NSFW] your links.

DO YOU SEE WHY I HATE THIS WAR YET... !!!!

ARE THESE JUST FACEST OF WAR... R U guys backwards or what ?

Quote from: landofshadows on January 11, 2007, 02:22:42 PM

QuoteIraq had practically nothing to do with terrorism, has this not been said many times? Do you have a learning disorder as well as dyslexia?

Oh... No wonder you didn't find Bin Larden, if you have very little of Idea of the whole of the Al-Qaeda network:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda_in_Iraq

(I Have never corrected you as I didn't want to make you look like a Spaz, but as you try to pin on me the title of learning impared or Retard... See the above link)

You stupid asshole, we were talking about before Iraq's government was destroyed. Iraq had nothing to do with terrorists before it was invaded.

Quote

QuoteI hate mass relocations and population expulsions almost as much as genocides.

When Hitler was killing off the Jews I think they preffered being moved than gassed in showers.

So you're saying that it would have been okay if the Nazis had taken over Europe and expelled all the non-Germanic people, but not killed them?

QuoteJesus Hitler

You like the word Shit... Well done, in voicing your opinions so well...

Thanks for admitting that my posts are more coherent than yours.

QuoteMy previous post are only suggestions alternatives, and its not like I sat down for a month working them out... Fair enough the Deportation or punishment of the Bin Larden Family is just as stupid as sending in a ground invasion... And thats been pretty much proven

Trying to defend your stupid ideas by saying that they were off the top of your head won't work because they're still sso incredibly ignorant that I can't imagine an adult human being thinking of them unless they never paid attention to the news.

EDIT: Nice deformed baby pictures, but neither of those are "facets of war". The first is clearly a Harlequin baby and the second is just a random stillborn freak. WHy did you post these and not pictures of people who have actually been maimed by war?

I love this thread as much as my kitten loves sleeping in boxes.
edit- Oh, and those pix have nothing to do with the war. And rense.com is a lolarious site.

Jesus Hitler, last I checked this was in "Intelligent Debate", so maybe you sshould leave if you can't be intelligent about the topic. Offending people dosn't get anyone anywhere.

Quotethe second is just a random stillborn freak.

It could of been you. And also stillborn babys look like any other baby except they are born dead.

QuoteOh, and those pix have nothing to do with the war. And rense.com is a lolarious site.

Did you guys even click the link, and see they are URANIUM MUNITIONS, from the conflict...?

QuoteJesus Hitler, last I checked this was in "Intelligent Debate", so maybe you sshould leave if you can't be intelligent about the topic. Offending people dosn't get anyone anywhere.

Cheers for that... Darico ... Not Sure Jesus HItler likes me, he sends me pictures of the KKK stringing up Black People for some reason...

QuoteYou stupid asshole, we were talking about before Iraq's government was destroyed. Iraq had nothing to do with terrorists before it was invaded.

Iraq Funded many terrorist cells including Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad, who then became part and parcel of the Al-Qaeda Network, I thought part of the over throwing of Saddam was to cut the funding to organisations like them... Sorry if I am wrong, No need for the Stupid Asshole line... But either way at least you can see the way the USA handled things has made a terrorist faction help the invaded state and no doubt grown in numbers thanks to the Conflict...

QuoteSo you're saying that it would have been okay if the Nazis had taken over Europe and expelled all the non-Germanic people, but not killed them?

I am not saying that at all, what I am saying is its a lesser of two evils... Moving the problem or killing off the problem... Its like if some pikey's camped up near me, I wouldn't kill them I would have them moved on... Was it that hard to understand ??

QuoteThanks for admitting that my posts are more coherent than yours.

Thats not what I am saying either... You really like reading between the lines, look closer it says in nice big letters DO ONE...

QuoteTrying to defend your stupid ideas by saying that they were off the top of your head won't work because they're still sso incredibly ignorant that I can't imagine an adult human being thinking of them unless they never paid attention to the news.

Just TRY and see things from those in the Middle East, and how bad the USA must look, I think the USA has killed more people in the last 20 through arming, supporting and invading than the amount of Allied forces killed in the 2nd World war... I know thats not all down to Bush, but it has some thing to do with Policing the Planet and robbing resources in the process...

QuoteEDIT: Nice deformed baby pictures, but neither of those are "facets of war". The first is clearly a Harlequin baby and the second is just a random stillborn freak. WHy did you post these and not pictures of people who have actually been maimed by war?

They are maimed by War... (Oh Sorry for posting the Images, I was Angry, I was being nice and Jesus Hitler and gonorrhoea are both being fairly offensive)... Dyslexia is a Learning disorder (see bottom of this post)

Here is a none Lolarious site:- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/2860759.stm

And another:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium

Oh and one more:- http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/Depleted-Uranium.htm [NSFW]

Here's a link for those who like printing stuff out to read while on the loo:- http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/printer_122006R.shtml

(gonorrhoea & Jesus Hitler )

So I take it that you think the War on Terror is going pretty well the way its going now then ?... If not how do you think it should be done ?

And if you do think its going well, what parts have gone well, apart from the Phillipeans ?

QuoteWhat is Dyslexia?
Dyslexia is a brain-based type of learning disability that specifically impairs a person's ability to read. These individuals typically read at levels significantly lower than expected despite having normal intelligence. Although the disorder varies from person to person, common characteristics among people with dyslexia are difficulty with phonological processing (the manipulation of sounds) and/or rapid visual-verbal responding.

Thats why I took offence... http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/dyslexia/dyslexia.htm They are too quick to judge, without knowing enough first... My case effects the way I see letters when joined in sentances, I can't read correctly, I miss words and lines of text, as I don't read much I tend to spell things as they sound, but Dyslexia also is an inbalance of the brain that causes sounds to become confussed... SO I can't spell or read right...

QuoteHere is a none Lolarious site:- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/2860759.stm

All types of radiation and solid radiation can cause cancer. Even standing infront of the microwave.

QuoteJust TRY and see things from those in the Middle East, and how bad the USA must look, I think the USA has killed more people in the last 20 through arming, supporting and invading than the amount of Allied forces killed in the 2nd World war... I know thats not all down to Bush, but it has some thing to do with Policing the Planet and robbing resources in the process...

I dont think its that bad...

Also the USA look bad in europe to most people as we think (not saying if it is or not true) USA went in for the oil and the "War on terror" was just a cover up. But, either way, britian is suppose to be pulling out as we our lowing the number of armed forces.

QuoteI dont think its that bad...

Not right now, but during the initial strike...  And the backing of Israel against the Lebanon-based Shia Muslim armed group Hezbollah... Many died... I think the publics opinion (amoungst the Muslims) is not a very understanding one, they still claim an in justice...  And Bin Larden and his terrorist group are fighting against the agressor (thats how the people ther view this, he is their Hero)

And America Made him the Man he is...

Part of Bin Larden's Speach:-

QuoteNo, we fight because we are free men who don't sleep under oppression. We want to restore freedom to our nation, just as you lay waste to our nation. So shall we lay waste to yours.

I say to you, Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers. But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind.

The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced.

I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy.

And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children.

And that day, it was confirmed to me that oppression and the intentional killing of innocent women and children is a deliberate American policy. Destruction is freedom and democracy, while resistance is terrorism and intolerance.

This means the oppressing and embargoing to death of millions as Bush Sr did in Iraq in the greatest mass slaughter of children mankind has ever known, and it means the throwing of millions of pounds of bombs and explosives at millions of children - also in Iraq - as Bush Jr did, in order to remove an old agent and replace him with a new puppet to assist in the pilfering of Iraq's oil and other outrages.

Is defending oneself and punishing the aggressor in kind, objectionable terrorism? If it is such, then it is unavoidable for us.

This is the message which I sought to communicate to you in word and deed, repeatedly, for years before September 11th.

The latter is one of your compatriots and co-religionists and I consider him to be neutral. So are the pretenders of freedom at the White House and the channels controlled by them able to run an interview with him?  So that he may relay to the American people what he has understood from us to be the reasons for our fight against you?

If you were to avoid these reasons, you will have taken the correct path that will lead America to the security that it was in before September 11th. This concerned the causes of the war.

It never occurred to us that the commander-in-chief of the American armed forces would abandon 50,000 of his citizens in the twin towers to face those great horrors alone, the time when they most needed him.

But because it seemed to him that occupying himself by talking to the little girl about the goat and its butting was more important than occupying himself with the planes and their butting of the skyscrapers, we were given three times the period required to execute the operations - all praise is due to Allah.

And it's no secret to you that the thinkers and perceptive ones from among the Americans warned Bush before the war and told him: "All that you want for securing America and removing the weapons of mass destruction - assuming they exist - is available to you, and the nations of the world are with you in the inspections, and it is in the interest of America that it not be thrust into an unjustified war with an unknown outcome."

But the darkness of the black gold blurred his vision and insight, and he gave priority to private interests over the public interests of America.

So the war went ahead, the death toll rose, the American economy bled, and Bush became embroiled in the swamps of Iraq that threaten his future. He fits the saying "like the naughty she-goat who used her hoof to dig up a knife from under the earth".

So I say to you, over 15,000 of our people have been killed and tens of thousands injured, while more than a thousand of you have been killed and more than 10,000 injured. And Bush's hands are stained with the blood of all those killed from both sides, all for the sake of oil and keeping their private companies in business.

Be aware that it is the nation who punishes the weak man when he causes the killing of one of its citizens for money, while letting the powerful one get off, when he causes the killing of more than 1000 of its sons, also for money.

And the same goes for your allies in Palestine. They terrorise the women and children, and kill and capture the men as they lie sleeping with their families on the mattresses, that you may recall that for every action, there is a reaction.

Finally, it behoves you to reflect on the last wills and testaments of the thousands who left you on the 11th as they gestured in despair. They are important testaments, which should be studied and researched.

Among the most important of what I read in them was some prose in their gestures before the collapse, where they say: "How mistaken we were to have allowed the White House to implement its aggressive foreign policies against the weak without supervision."

It is as if they were telling you, the people of America: "Hold to account those who have caused us to be killed, and happy is he who learns from others' mistakes."

And among that which I read in their gestures is a verse of poetry. "Injustice chases its people, and how unhealthy the bed of tyranny."

As has been said: "An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure."

And know that: "It is better to return to the truth than persist in error." And that the wise man doesn't squander his security, wealth and children for the sake of the liar in the White House.

In conclusion, I tell you in truth, that your security is not in the hands of Kerry, nor Bush, nor al-Qaida. No.

Your security is in your own hands. And every state that doesn't play with our security has automatically guaranteed its own security.

And Allah is our Guardian and Helper, while you have no Guardian or Helper. All peace be upon he who follows the Guidance.

One nations hero, another's terrorist.

QuoteOne nations hero, another's terrorist.

Yep...

There is however a divide amoungst them... he has supporters but then he has thouse that think an eye for an eye is not the right way about things:- http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/religion/BinLaden'sTrap.htm

And then there are those that loved the fall of the towers:-

[youtube=422,335]f6JQ1RY_0O8[/youtube]

They say all this wouldn't of happend if we didn't not back Isreal...

Below [NSFW]
[youtube=422,335]QQPZjDRtKDs[/youtube]

A Video on both sides of the Divide Israeli and Palestinian

[youtube=422,335]StXkdRfAuXk[/youtube]

This Video (BELOW) Shows the opions across the pond shared by many, I follow this slightly, but not to the same degree as I think Terrorist factions should be closed down, but so should the threat of oppression, both problems are as big as each other...

[youtube=422,335]qRV7wYT_rn0[/youtube]

Why I think Terrorist factions should be removed... They insight hate against another race to the point of ethnic cleansing or Genicide... I also think the hatered of Jews is very unfounded, Jewish people are nice people... But so are Muslims (When both are away from the Middle East)... I think putting two groups of people with VERY stong religious faiths next to one another was a big mistake... (putting them in close quaters like that is like putting a Cat infront of a Dog Cage, and then hitting the Dog for trying to bite it, but letting the Cat claw its eyes out)

Below [NSFW]
[youtube=422,335]0P-loBYwSsU[/youtube]

My Stance is first tackle why the Terrorist act, and then tackle the acts of the terrorist should they remain...

I know this War differs from that in Iraq and Al-Qaeda, or even that of the IRA... but the fact that in all cases USA has atributed and help fuel the violence by trying to control it... Like throwing water on a alight frying pan...

Quote from: landofshadows on January 11, 2007, 07:42:41 PM
Did you guys even click the link, and see they are URANIUM MUNITIONS, from the conflict...?

Why oh why do you expect me to believe anything from that site?

Quote

QuoteJesus Hitler, last I checked this was in "Intelligent Debate", so maybe you sshould leave if you can't be intelligent about the topic. Offending people dosn't get anyone anywhere.

Cheers for that... Darico ... Not Sure Jesus HItler likes me, he sends me pictures of the KKK stringing up Black People for some reason...

LoS, you're an inconsistent idiot who avoids key evidence when it doesn't support what you want to believe, but will buy into pretty much any political conspiracy theory or alternative way of thinking. I'd say you're lacking in the intelligence department.
also- Why do you always bold people's names? I've never seen that before.

QuoteBut either way at least you can see the way the USA handled things has made a terrorist faction help the invaded state and no doubt grown in numbers thanks to the Conflict...

...No shit? Saddam kept quite a lid on terrorism. I'll have to look into this alleged funding later.

QuoteYou really like reading between the lines, look closer it says in nice big letters DO ONE...

So says the guy who reads into everything to look for conspiracy theory. Or rather, reads websites by crackpots with no lives that do.

QuoteJust TRY and see things from those in the Middle East, and how bad the USA must look, I think the USA has killed more people in the last 20 through arming, supporting and invading than the amount of Allied forces killed in the 2nd World war... I know thats not all down to Bush, but it has some thing to do with Policing the Planet and robbing resources in the process...

...

Quotegonorrhoea are both being fairly offensive)...

Yeah, I'm an asshole, I know.

QuoteHere is a none Lolarious site:- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/2860759.stm

Well, I would hope that this doesn't come to pass.

QuoteAnd another:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium

Am I the only one tired of overuse of Wikipedia links in these debates?

QuoteHere's a link for those who like printing stuff out to read while on the loo:-

Eww.

QuoteSo I take it that you think the War on Terror is going pretty well the way its going now then ?... If not how do you think it should be done ?

I've explained this already.

QuoteAnd if you do think its going well, what parts have gone well, apart from the Phillipeans ?

There have been smaller sucesses in various parts of the world and in Afghanistan (although there's still quite a bit to be done, the war's in its infancy after all).

Quote from: Darico on January 11, 2007, 03:50:35 PM
Jesus Hitler, last I checked this was in "Intelligent Debate", so maybe you sshould leave if you can't be intelligent about the topic. Offending people dosn't get anyone anywhere.

I am being the reasonable person here. Why shouldn't I respond with hostility when someone suggests using terrorist tactics to fight terrorists?

Quote

Quotethe second is just a random stillborn freak.

It could of been you. And also stillborn babys look like any other baby except they are born dead.

It could have been you, too. What does that picture have to do with war?

Quote from: landofshadows on January 11, 2007, 07:42:41 PM

QuoteOh, and those pix have nothing to do with the war. And rense.com is a lolarious site.

Did you guys even click the link, and see they are URANIUM MUNITIONS, from the conflict...?

I clicked the link and saw an article about UFOs from the 1800s. Why do you always link to garbage? If you want to bitch about weapons which use depleted uranium then you can. All you did was show gross-out photos that look like they came off a pro-life site, so don't try to defend it.

Quote

QuoteYou stupid asshole, we were talking about before Iraq's government was destroyed. Iraq had nothing to do with terrorists before it was invaded.

Iraq Funded many terrorist cells including Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad, who then became part and parcel of the Al-Qaeda Network, I thought part of the over throwing of Saddam was to cut the funding to organisations like them... Sorry if I am wrong, No need for the Stupid Asshole line... But either way at least you can see the way the USA handled things has made a terrorist faction help the invaded state and no doubt grown in numbers thanks to the Conflict...

The Iraqi government never had anything to do with terrorists, especially militant Islamic terrorists. And yes, the stupid asshole line was needed and entirely appropriate. Anyway, the terrorists aren't helping Iraqi because they are turning the country into shit. Sure, America will withdraw, but then what? They won't just disband and assimilate into the population. They will fight and fight and fight until they destroy the land they are occupying. It happened in Afghanistan and it will happen to Iraq.

Quote

QuoteSo you're saying that it would have been okay if the Nazis had taken over Europe and expelled all the non-Germanic people, but not killed them?

I am not saying that at all, what I am saying is its a lesser of two evils... Moving the problem or killing off the problem... Its like if some pikey's camped up near me, I wouldn't kill them I would have them moved on... Was it that hard to understand ??

That is insane.

Quote

QuoteTrying to defend your stupid ideas by saying that they were off the top of your head won't work because they're still sso incredibly ignorant that I can't imagine an adult human being thinking of them unless they never paid attention to the news.

Just TRY and see things from those in the Middle East, and how bad the USA must look, I think the USA has killed more people in the last 20 through arming, supporting and invading than the amount of Allied forces killed in the 2nd World war... I know thats not all down to Bush, but it has some thing to do with Policing the Planet and robbing resources in the process...

Thanks, Captain Hyperbole. Why don't you try to back that up with some proof?

Quote

QuoteEDIT: Nice deformed baby pictures, but neither of those are "facets of war". The first is clearly a Harlequin baby and the second is just a random stillborn freak. WHy did you post these and not pictures of people who have actually been maimed by war?

They are maimed by War... (Oh Sorry for posting the Images, I was Angry, I was being nice and Jesus Hitler and gonorrhoea are both being fairly offensive)... Dyslexia is a Learning disorder (see bottom of this post)

They are not "maimed by war". I know what depleted uranium is and does, by the way, so there's no need to link me to Wikipedia again.

Quote(gonorrhoea & Jesus Hitler )

So I take it that you think the War on Terror is going pretty well the way its going now then ?

No, we never said that.

QuoteIf not how do you think it should be done ?

I don't have all the answers, but Turkey is an Islamic country. However, unlike other Islamic countries, they do not identify themselves as Muslims but as Turks. There needs to be a stronger emphasis on national instead of religious unity in the Middle East. Strong nationalism isn't that great, but Turkey does not have a terrorist problem. This is only part of the solution, but I assure you that being nice and asking them won't work.

Quote from: landofshadows on January 11, 2007, 10:16:24 PM
And America Made him the Man he is...

You need to cut that shit out. We have explained many times Osama's relationship with the United States.

QuotePart of Bin Larden's Speach:-

tl;dr

By the way, we don't call you stupid becaue you are dyslexic, we say it because you are willfully ignorant.

Couldn't've said it better myself, JH.

Why has this topic been created and combed over for...I think the fourth time now?

QuoteI don't have all the answers, but Turkey is an Islamic country. However, unlike other Islamic countries, they do not identify themselves as Muslims but as Turks. There needs to be a stronger emphasis on national instead of religious unity in the Middle East. Strong nationalism isn't that great, but Turkey does not have a terrorist problem. This is only part of the solution, but I assure you that being nice and asking them won't work.

Thats the Answer I thought I would get... This is how MOST think... Muslim = Terrorist

It's not true... But that is the narrow minded thinking of most... The Muslim Faith is one of the most peace-full... And you call me ignorant.

I mean Israel is a Terrorist state... http://www.serendipity.li/zionism/israel_terr.htm

It just depends on your view... just like previously mentioned the objects of Good and Evil and right and wrong...Its down to the individual and the situation, to south Lebanon the people of Israel are in a terrorist state... To not even try and see things from other perspectives is being ignorant.

QuoteWhy shouldn't I respond with hostility when someone suggests using terrorist tactics to fight terrorists?

Well if your funding a Terrorist state against Hezbolla (Terrorist Faction to some) then thats exactly what you are doing...

QuoteIt could have been you, too. What does that picture have to do with war?

Americans used depleted Uranium in the Golf conflict in their amo...

Quoteinconsistent idiot who avoids key evidence when it doesn't support what you want to believe

I am Inconsistent as I am trying to give two sides to the debate... I avoid Key Evidence from the Middle East and America as most of it backs them-selves... its very one sided if you view either over the other... The Key points are thouse that both side states who is Evil and who is Good, and that makes me point out again, thats nothing but a point of view...

SIMPLE JUST FOR YOU TWO
Darth Vader (BUSH) thought what he was doing was for the better good of the universe (EARTH), and the Rebels are a band of scum he needs to stamp out (terrorist Network)... The Empire is America policing the world, the Rebels are thouse against change...

I know its not that simple... But it is to those who's lives are being crushed in Lebanon through occupation of the southern area's...

I can't really be asked to comment on the other item's most are attacks on me without and backing like for example:-

QuoteYou need to cut that shit out. We have explained many times Osama's relationship with the United States.

So Osama just woke up one day did he and saif, oh today, I will Blow up the Twin Towers... Nope... read his speach why he says the USA drove him to it by slaughtering innocent people...

(I mean if I am to answer each this debate will just turn into an arguement of different opinions and will go around in circles)

What I want to know is, is the War on Terror right or wrong ?

If its Right how could it have been handled better ?

And do you think we can ever Win, will we ever be free of terror ?

Quote from: landofshadows on January 12, 2007, 08:29:43 AM
Thats the Answer I thought I would get... This is how MOST think... Muslim = Terrorist

That's not what he's saying here. In fact, he's saying that Islamic nations do not necessarily have terrorist problems, and even gives the example of Turkey (there are other examples, as well, in the Caucasus and Central Asia afaik)

QuoteIt's not true... But that is the narrow minded thinking of most... The Muslim Faith is one of the most peace-full... And you call me ignorant.

Islam isn't the problem, militant Fundamentalist Islam is.

QuoteTo not even try and see things from other perspectives is being ignorant.

Except we do, and yet we still come to the same conclusions. Do you think that if we look at things from all sides all of a sudden we'll see it your way? Do you really think that even you, or I or JH, have or even can see it totally from the perspective of the Israelis, or from an average Hezbollah terrorist?

QuoteI am Inconsistent as I am trying to give two sides to the debate... I avoid Key Evidence from the Middle East and America as most of it backs them-selves... its very one sided if you view either over the other...

No, you're inconsistent on your perspective. Also, you're worse than I thought. You avoid evidence and then say it's because it's biased, even if it clearly isn't.

Quote
Darth Vader (BUSH) thought what he was doing was for the better good of the universe (EARTH), and the Rebels are a band of scum he needs to stamp out (terrorist Network)... The Empire is America policing the world, the Rebels are thouse against change...

Well, at least you didn't compare us to Mordor.
Also, although I've never seen Star Wars, as far as I can tell the Rebels are rebelling against an oppressive, Fascist-type regime (or something of that sort) and are generally more humane than the Empire.

QuoteBut it is to those who's lives are being crushed in Lebanon through occupation of the southern area's...

And for those Israelis killed by Katyusha rockets?

QuoteIf its Right how could it have been handled better ?

Why do you keep asking the same question over and over again, even when I've addressed my opinion on the matter? And JH as well?

QuoteAnd do you think we can ever Win, will we ever be free of terror ?

Never completely, but that isn't the point anyhow.

QuoteNever completely, but that isn't the point anyhow.

The Topic title is the War on terror, so if its a War that can never be won, why even start it ?

I know it can't be ignored, but surely there are ways that both sides can win a little and gain allot.

QuoteThat's not what he's saying here. In fact, he's saying that Islamic nations do not necessarily have terrorist problems, and even gives the example of Turkey (there are other examples, as well, in the Caucasus and Central Asia afaik)

QuoteIslam isn't the problem, militant Fundamentalist Islam is.

Jihadi cells... I agree with that, but JH was very broad sweeping with his statement, sorry for misunderstanding.

QuoteWell, at least you didn't compare us to Mordor.

LOL...

QuoteAnd for those Israelis killed by Katyusha rockets?

And those in Lebanon by America missiles...

QuoteWhy do you keep asking the same question over and over again, even when I've addressed my opinion on the matter? And JH as well?

I will try and stop, its just you keep saying how wrong I am but never give suggestions on how to better the situation, but then you mock the way its being done now... you are both very conffusing in your stance...?

You back your people not your leader, you back the cause but not the War... itsd hard for me to grasp what it is you expect from the War on terror when you admit it may never be won...?

Quote from: gonorrhoea on January 12, 2007, 12:05:50 PM

Quote from: landofshadows on January 12, 2007, 08:29:43 AM
It's not true... But that is the narrow minded thinking of most... The Muslim Faith is one of the most peace-full... And you call me ignorant.

Islam isn't the problem, militant Fundamentalist Islam is.

agreed.

Quote

QuoteI am Inconsistent as I am trying to give two sides to the debate... I avoid Key Evidence from the Middle East and America as most of it backs them-selves... its very one sided if you view either over the other...

No, you're inconsistent on your perspective. Also, you're worse than I thought. You avoid evidence and then say it's because it's biased, even if it clearly isn't.

Some evidence from both america and the middle east will be bias, but a equal amount would not be. The trick is to know if the person who has written the information down is being bias or showing both sides views.

QuoteDarth Vader (BUSH) thought what he was doing was for the better good of the universe (EARTH), and the Rebels are a band of scum he needs to stamp out (terrorist Network)... The Empire is America policing the world, the Rebels are thouse against change...

America policing the world? Um...

Quote

QuoteIf its Right how could it have been handled better ?

Why do you keep asking the same question over and over again, even when I've addressed my opinion on the matter? And JH as well?

You arnt the only ones with opinions.

Quote from: landofshadows on January 12, 2007, 01:27:08 PM
The Topic title is the War on terror, so if its a War that can never be won, why even start it ?

You misunderstood. As far as I know, it's merely to eliminate a good number of terrorist factions, most famously and importantly al-Qaeda. Bush's statements that the war intends to eliminate terrorism 100% is political rhetoric and another reason I don't respect him.

QuoteAnd those in Lebanon by America missiles...

American missiles don't intentionally strike Lebanese villages and aren't meant to terrorise the population into submission.

QuoteI will try and stop, its just you keep saying how wrong I am but never give suggestions on how to better the situation, but then you mock the way its being done now... you are both very conffusing in your stance...?

Well, I've said we should try and erode the terrorist's fanbase. This, however, is an oversimplification and a discussion of this can droll on and on and would touch on various subjects, places, events, groups, etc.

Quote from: Darico on January 12, 2007, 03:03:11 PM
You arnt the only ones with opinions.

No, but we happen to be the ones the questions are directed at.

QuoteI've said we should try and erode the terrorist's fanbase

So how in your opinion (any one who feels simular to the above) would be best to do that Lebanon Hezbollah situation ?

(I choose this faction as they seemed to have the largest of backing and best political understanding)

The Missles they fired into Israel are unguided, they know the best routes advancing may take in their firing of missles was the best they could do... I am sure if they had better rockets they would have been better at hitting targets... But the American missles (Fired by Israel) hit a couple of Lebanon schools, and had also been fired fairly randomly, in exsessive force, some would say.  I know Hezbollah fired them from streets and Israel had very little choice in firering back, but many inocent people died, but then again Israel did drop flyers asking the mass population to evacuate...

I do agree Israel are the most Humaniterian over the two states in the way it handled its self, and if I was to defend one on Humanterian grounds it would be them... But the thing is these mini conflicts have been happening for decades from the point the Jews got moved there... They have never been welcome, and they never will be.  May be if they hadn't been placed in one place but spread out evenly over America, England and France these events would not be happening now...

I don't know how I would Erode the Hatered towards the Jews in Lebanon...

A Little Hitler in every leader ?

Some thing I have noticed are both sides being likened to Hitler... There are many sites saying Bush is carrying out the same acts against militant Fundamentalist Islam (Muslims within the middle east and Iran as the main backer for Arms) and then there are those creating likes between Arabs and Hitler...

Hitler Vs Bush
[youtube=422,335]h8AdSHKywEU[/youtube]

[youtube=422,335]sIEW0xW5O2w[/youtube]

Hiter Vs Arabs
[youtube=422,335]GC8gPaxV_O0[/youtube]

[youtube=422,335]dF_5NjNstlc[/youtube]

There are loads more but there the same RUBBISH as above... there was only one Hitler and that was Hitler...

Whats it with you and pictures?

Quote from: landofshadows on January 12, 2007, 06:01:19 PM
So how in your opinion (any one who feels simular to the above) would be best to do that Lebanon Hezbollah situation ?

I would have to know more about this particular situation, as I don't know much about Hezbollah and the Israeli retaliation in southern Lebanon.

QuoteThe Missles they fired into Israel are unguided

This is my problem with them. And if they were guided, do you really think it would make a difference? Seeing as, you know, the whole point was to scare off the Jews?

QuoteMay be if they hadn't been placed in one place but spread out evenly over America, England and France these events would not be happening now...

There were too many Jews in Central Europe, and the French people weren't-and apparently still aren't- generally very loving towards our little Semitic friends.


Yeah, I wish I could stab people who compare various leaders to Hitler. Stab 'em like you knife crazy Brits.

Meh, well we don't use guns. Far too civilised XD

QuoteStab 'em like you knife crazy Brits.

LOL... I guess that gets me back for calling Americans Gun Crazy...

Knife Crimes in England are fairly high:- http://www.crimeinfo.org.uk/servlet/factsheetservlet?command=viewfactsheet&factsheetid=108&category=factsheets

But no way nearly as high as Gun related Crimes in America... But eye for an eye... LMAO

QuoteThis is my problem with them. And if they were guided, do you really think it would make a difference? Seeing as, you know, the whole point was to scare off the Jews?

Well, it wasn't to scare off the Jews... Lebanon came under fire before they fired back... Israel fired first for the Capture of two of their boarder patrol men... You see Hezbollah Captured them (Kidnapped in the words of Israel) and asked that Israel releases the soldirs from the Hezbollah faction, Israel has been capturing them for ages before Hezbollah retailiated...

Many of these situations seems so avoidable... Its all so messy...

Wouldn't it be nice if we all sang from the same hym sheet...?

Instead of looking at THIS IS MY COUNTRY AND MY FAITH, look at things as THIS IS MY WORLD AND MY HUMAN RACE... may when we have an enemy in space we will be more united as a planet and a Speicies... but until then I guess we will continue killing each other...

QuoteWhats it with you and pictures?

Those Pictures have play buttons on them, they are actually Videos, click the play button on them...

Quote

QuoteWhats it with you and pictures?

You may have noticed those pictures have play buttons on them, there actually Video's...LOL

Well, they dont load on mine, just the little red X. Everytime. lol.

QuoteInstead of looking at THIS IS MY COUNTRY AND MY FAITH, look at things as THIS IS MY WORLD AND MY HUMAN RACE... may when we have an enemy in space we will be more united as a planet and a Speicies... but until then I guess we will continue killing each other...

Well, we arn't here to decide if other life forms exsist on other planets. But I am sure if we where attacked we would try and come together to destroy the threat for the time being. And it would seem (leaving the whole alien thing) that the world is actually becoming more unified. Europe wants to become the USE or something along those lines.  Not so sure on this, we where told and where talking about it in my lunch break yesterday. I think it would be a good idea, but back to the matter at hand.

Many of the situations could be avoided, but they have been looking for a reason for so long and have finally found it.

QuoteMany of the situations could be avoided, but they have been looking for a reason for so long and have finally found it.

And that reason in most Black Gold... Oil...

But in Israel's case I think the USA see Israel as an extension of their own nation or something, like a mini pet project...

Like I said earlier, many people think America went in for the oil. And with the current crisis, who can really blame them? heh.

Quote from: landofshadows on January 12, 2007, 07:02:04 PM
Well, it wasn't to scare off the Jews... Lebanon came under fire before they fired back... Israel fired first for the Capture of two of their boarder patrol men... You see Hezbollah Captured them (Kidnapped in the words of Israel) and asked that Israel releases the soldirs from the Hezbollah faction, Israel has been capturing them for ages before Hezbollah retailiated...

Eh, true enough (got my timeline messed up). But I still doubt they'd be anymore discriminate in their weapons usage.

QuoteInstead of looking at THIS IS MY COUNTRY AND MY FAITH, look at things as THIS IS MY WORLD AND MY HUMAN RACE... may when we have an enemy in space we will be more united as a planet and a Speicies... but until then I guess we will continue killing each other...

I'm applying for a Visa to Utopia, too.

QuoteAnd that reason in most Black Gold... Oil...

And other reasons.

Quote from: landofshadows on January 12, 2007, 08:29:43 AM

QuoteI don't have all the answers, but Turkey is an Islamic country. However, unlike other Islamic countries, they do not identify themselves as Muslims but as Turks. There needs to be a stronger emphasis on national instead of religious unity in the Middle East. Strong nationalism isn't that great, but Turkey does not have a terrorist problem. This is only part of the solution, but I assure you that being nice and asking them won't work.

Thats the Answer I thought I would get... This is how MOST think... Muslim = Terrorist

It's not true... But that is the narrow minded thinking of most... The Muslim Faith is one of the most peace-full... And you call me ignorant.

WOW.

QuoteI mean Israel is a Terrorist state... http://www.serendipity.li/zionism/israel_terr.htm

I have no love for Israel, but they are attacked constantly. My suggestions for Arab/Muslim states can apply to Isreal, too.

QuoteWhy shouldn't I respond with hostility when someone suggests using terrorist tactics to fight terrorists?

Quote

Well if your funding a Terrorist state against Hezbolla (Terrorist Faction to some) then thats exactly what you are doing...

Yeah, I guess a group that kidnaps people and indiscriminately fires unguided missiles into cities in a country that their homeland is not at war with could be considered "freedom fighters". Also, you seem to have the Unites States mixed up with Israel and me mixed up with the US government.

Quote

QuoteIt could have been you, too. What does that picture have to do with war?

Americans used depleted Uranium in the Golf conflict in their amo...

Okay? And? I know all about DU, so there's no need to keep saying it. Those photos you showed were nothing but shock photos and it was obvious that they had nothing to do with DU.

QuoteSIMPLE JUST FOR YOU TWO
Darth Vader (BUSH) thought what he was doing was for the better good of the universe (EARTH), and the Rebels are a band of scum he needs to stamp out (terrorist Network)... The Empire is America policing the world, the Rebels are thouse against change...

Everything you say is a joke. Comparing Bush to Darth Vader and Hitler is fucking stupid.

QuoteI can't really be asked to comment on the other item's most are attacks on me without and backing like for example:-

QuoteYou need to cut that shit out. We have explained many times Osama's relationship with the United States.

So Osama just woke up one day did he and saif, oh today, I will Blow up the Twin Towers... Nope... read his speach why he says the USA drove him to it by slaughtering innocent people...

So you don't trust American news sources because we are biased but Osama bin Laden is trustworthy?

QuoteWhat I want to know is, is the War on Terror right or wrong ?

Of course it is right.

QuoteIf its Right how could it have been handled better ?

Why should I answer this question again? I threw out a suggestion and instead of talking about it or saying it is right or wrong you say "Typical American!"

gonorrhoea - I think we are slowly seeing each others point of view, I know I have a slightly warpped mind and I am open to suggestion and manipulation when I see a WEB sight with many references and so fourth, and may be I should listen to My own advice and stop trusting the Media just cuz I don't trust the Goverment doesn't mean I should trust sigts showing hear say  or have baked stories and pictures that could have been made in Photoshop...

So thanks... Just been loking at another topic in a thread called Chapter 322, check it out... Instead of Soaking in the clips shown like a sponge I have Analyized it and made my own thoughts known...

I think people want to think the world is against them and the powers that be are currupt, I have taken a small step back and looked at some of what I have put, and some of it (Actually most) is what I want to think rather than whats correct, I want the wrold to not be as borring as black and white... I Like What If's... I said it my-self about X-files...

I still think any War is wrong and depending on the side your on depends on if your a Good Guy or a Bad Guy... Every one who starts a War, feels what they are doing is for the better Good, and Irronically thats Bad... I doubt the Human kind will change for many years when it comes to War...

I doubt the War on terror will continue in more ground invasions after Iraq, I hope not any way... But I can see thing no doubt re-errupting in Israel and lebanon...

The War on Terror I guess sends out the right message to the Majority of the world, and the message to Terrorists we wont stand for any of it, and we wont be terrorised. But at the same time we have not really won a real battle on terror letten know a War... So its kind of Futile in pratice, good in theory though...

If its going to work the way its being pushed now it needs more backing, especially from neighbouring states, we need the support of the people Around the terrorist factions an attack from all sides or at least a few.

I still don't have all the answers, I would like to though, that envolves time travel and Quantum pyhsics, I studied that in my BTEC in Information Technology... LOL (I am not going to attempt to build or even buy a Time machine from Ebay)

I still also think Bush is a Prick...

So the only things I have shifted on is Blaming the USA for a greater portion of the happenings, I know see Terrorists are a greater threat, AT CURRENT, than the worlds Super power... (May be I only miss-trust the USA so, as I have a Slight Fear of Bush, I REALLY DONT TRUST HIM)


JESUS HITLER

QuoteStates mixed up with Israel and me mixed up with the US government.

Israel is heavily backed by the USA, there are many reports of Nukes and missles been given to them by the USA that can hit and Arab state inc Iran, and Thats why Iran fund Hezbollah and other terroist factions a like... Thats why I mix Israel with the USA as USA is no doubt stamped on their war heads... And I don't confuse you with your Goverment, I am only asking what would you say in your INFINATE wisdom is the best approach to take if you was say the president (in around about way)...

I don't like the funding & backing your goverment has given to Israel as it left to a mass killing of inoccent lives, but if you didn't give that same backing then Israel would have been over run and many more would have died in the claming back of land by those in Lebanon, so I can see may be what has happened is the better of two Evils... If Lebanon did have free rain to kill the Jews in Israel it would have been a massacre without the USA's Backing...

So may be looking at states of life compared to life and the losses on both sides MAY BE the USA is doing the right thing, And may be its about time the Jews stayed put some place with out another country wanting them all dead...?? May be it would be wrong to move them, if you keep moving a problem it still remains a problem (that sounds like I am calling Jews a Problem, and I am not) What I am trying to say is there are a very displaced Race... And for some reason they tend to tick people off, I have never been ticked off with a Jewish person, all the ones I know are so laid back and nice, tyhey always seem to talk their way out of fights and nasty situations rather than choose to attack or fight back...

May be thats why, people see them as intelligent a threat to their way of life and a push over to over throw... Not sure... But I do agree they need defending as they are placed in a very militant Islamic area...

But at the same time may be Hezbollah needs listening to and a deal made to stop the trouble errupting again.

Oh and Jesus Hitler if you think I am personally attcking you I am not... Or not meaning to... But if you feel wronged, Sorry...

QuoteEverything you say is a joke. Comparing Bush to Darth Vader and Hitler is fucking stupid.

The Darth Vader thing was a simple way of showing a point, of Policing and forcing a changes of the world, and in some way that is whats going on...

I think George said it best when he said we should keep to ourselves...This policing is going to be the fucking death of us.

The United States already won "The War on Terror". It's just a matter of making sure it doesn't happen again. 

     It's a matter of that isn't what it's about anymore. Why the fuck are we in Somalia? Why are we sending twenty-thousand more troops when logically it will only make it more difficult to complete each operation succesfully? These are the questions I want answered.

     Oh HERE'S a good one! WHO THE FUCK DO WE THINK WE ARE?! I totally understand trying to help people in other countries, but you know what? You can have too much of anything, and this whole thing is a prime example. WE have people all over the middle east, Africa, Vietnam, Asia, and a host of other places. I want to know what's REALLY going on damn it!

This isn't about me yelling at Bush, this isn't about me yelling at our government, or anyone else's. I just want the fucking truth about this whole thing. So far, everything we've been told is a lie. Hell, even the fucking NEWS gets disproven within a week of an article being released! How much do you wat to bet that "150" insurgents turns out to be 15? Or even 5?! Furthermore, I'll even wager they were civilians that we SUSPECTED were insurgents!

     Not only are we hurting the people we are supposed to be helping, we are hurting ourselves. Men on OUR SIDE are killing OUR PEOPLE at what seems to be completely random! Something is obviously rotten up with brass, and it's starting to get worse. Someone needs to do the weeding around here.

Quote from: arrowone on January 13, 2007, 05:26:03 AM
     It's a matter of that isn't what it's about anymore. Why the fuck are we in Somalia? Why are we sending twenty-thousand more troops when logically it will only make it more difficult to complete each operation succesfully? These are the questions I want answered.

     Oh HERE'S a good one! WHO THE FUCK DO WE THINK WE ARE?! I totally understand trying to help people in other countries, but you know what? You can have too much of anything, and this whole thing is a prime example. WE have people all over the middle east, Africa, Vietnam, Asia, and a host of other places. I want to know what's REALLY going on damn it!

This isn't about me yelling at Bush, this isn't about me yelling at our government, or anyone else's. I just want the fucking truth about this whole thing. So far, everything we've been told is a lie. Hell, even the fucking NEWS gets disproven within a week of an article being released! How much do you wat to bet that "150" insurgents turns out to be 15? Or even 5?! Furthermore, I'll even wager they were civilians that we SUSPECTED were insurgents!

     Not only are we hurting the people we are supposed to be helping, we are hurting ourselves. Men on OUR SIDE are killing OUR PEOPLE at what seems to be completely random! Something is obviously rotten up with brass, and it's starting to get worse. Someone needs to do the weeding around here.

I agree with you. But thats what were doing (according to Bush) but he's doing great for having an IQ of 16. I can't wait until 2008.
EDIT: He needs to focus more on protecting our borders.

Quote from: Irockman1 on January 13, 2007, 09:44:27 AM

Quote from: arrowone on January 13, 2007, 05:26:03 AM
     It's a matter of that isn't what it's about anymore. Why the fuck are we in Somalia? Why are we sending twenty-thousand more troops when logically it will only make it more difficult to complete each operation succesfully? These are the questions I want answered.

     Oh HERE'S a good one! WHO THE FUCK DO WE THINK WE ARE?! I totally understand trying to help people in other countries, but you know what? You can have too much of anything, and this whole thing is a prime example. WE have people all over the middle east, Africa, Vietnam, Asia, and a host of other places. I want to know what's REALLY going on damn it!

This isn't about me yelling at Bush, this isn't about me yelling at our government, or anyone else's. I just want the fucking truth about this whole thing. So far, everything we've been told is a lie. Hell, even the fucking NEWS gets disproven within a week of an article being released! How much do you wat to bet that "150" insurgents turns out to be 15? Or even 5?! Furthermore, I'll even wager they were civilians that we SUSPECTED were insurgents!

     Not only are we hurting the people we are supposed to be helping, we are hurting ourselves. Men on OUR SIDE are killing OUR PEOPLE at what seems to be completely random! Something is obviously rotten up with brass, and it's starting to get worse. Someone needs to do the weeding around here.

I agree with you. But thats what were doing (according to Bush) but he's doing great for having an IQ of 16. I can't wait until 2008.
EDIT: He needs to focus more on protecting our borders.

Why? Because the Mexicans might come over here and do the jobs no one else wants to do? Or is it that you're just afraid the Canadians are going to take over?

Quote from: landofshadows on January 12, 2007, 10:47:39 PM
I still think any War is wrong and depending on the side your on depends on if your a Good Guy or a Bad Guy... Every one who starts a War, feels what they are doing is for the better Good, and Irronically thats Bad... I doubt the Human kind will change for many years when it comes to War...

Humanity will never change.

QuoteIf its going to work the way its being pushed now it needs more backing, especially from neighbouring states, we need the support of the people Around the terrorist factions an attack from all sides or at least a few.

We have as much support in that area as we'll be getting for a while.

QuoteI still also think Bush is a Prick...

Most everyone does.

QuoteMay be thats why, people see them as intelligent a threat to their way of life and a push over to over throw... Not sure... But I do agree they need defending as they are placed in a very militant Islamic area...

People hate Jews because Jews are different.

Quote from: arrowone on January 13, 2007, 05:26:03 AM
It's a matter of that isn't what it's about anymore. Why the fuck are we in Somalia?

Our troop levels in the Horn of Africa are pretty low, but those troops are basically hunting for terrorist factions and the such.

QuoteWhy are we sending twenty-thousand more troops when logically it will only make it more difficult to complete each operation succesfully?

Huh?

QuoteOh HERE'S a good one! WHO THE FUCK DO WE THINK WE ARE?!

A powerful nation trying to expand its influence and eliminate threats to itself and its allies. I don't see the problem, really, I'd rather have America doing this than it's good pals China, Russia, and Iran.

QuoteI totally understand trying to help people in other countries

You think the US is really going to go into a Third World shithole and try to fix it up with no gain?

QuoteWE have people all over the middle east, Africa, Vietnam, Asia, and a host of other places. I want to know what's REALLY going on damn it!

Vietnam? Stragglers from the mid-70s?

QuoteThis isn't about me yelling at Bush, this isn't about me yelling at our government, or anyone else's. I just want the fucking truth about this whole thing. So far, everything we've been told is a lie. Hell, even the fucking NEWS gets disproven within a week of an article being released! How much do you wat to bet that "150" insurgents turns out to be 15? Or even 5?! Furthermore, I'll even wager they were civilians that we SUSPECTED were insurgents!

A handful of insurgents can cause quite a bit of damage. Also, calm the fuck down man.

QuoteNot only are we hurting the people we are supposed to be helping, we are hurting ourselves. Men on OUR SIDE are killing OUR PEOPLE at what seems to be completely random!

Huh?

That's exactly my point. If you are saying stuff like "huh?" annd you think those guys are stragglers, than youdon't NEARLY as much as you should. Not that I know much more. And that's exactly the fucking problem. I'm going to keep studying this shit, just because I'm fucking pissed.

Why don't you explain yourself better?
Also, calm down. People tend to make idiots of themselves when they get angry in a debate.

True...I should calm down, you are 100% correct.

    I don't have the link, as I don't subscribe to his news source, but Silver once gve a link in IRC to a story about an American soldier getting mowed down by other Americans.

    What happened was, he was speaking to an Iraqi woman, when three men in a vehicle pulled up- American troops. They pulled weapons on him, and demanded he put his hands up. Before he could even open his mouth, he was tazered. Understand that when you are tazered, you are utterly debilitated for a short time. Before the effects wore off, he was commanded to put his hands behind his head once more, and promptly tazered. This time, his hand flailed back towards his side-arm, and one of the men took this opportunity to blast him with his rifle. Upon questioning, the man who ordered them out there stated: "He could be considered dangerous, as he chose not to follow the orders given to him."

Ok, let's not go to any war with any instances of intentional friendly fire or even the most minor of atrocity.
We'll get a lot done.
Seriously though, that's bad, and I hope those responsible (assuming the story is even true) were promptly punished, but it's hardly an excuse to pull out because of a small number of isolated incidents of human right's abuses and the such. Really, those exist in every war.

Oh no, that's not what I was saying. If we have to be there, fine, we have to be there. But I want to know WHY we have to be there.

If we was to pull out now, It would leave Iraq in a bad way, the police there are not eqiped to deal with the factions and resistance.

I don't think the full scale of what they would have been facing was fully realised beofre the invaision... and now its all about saving face and trying to get a certain level of peace before withdrawing.

Bush does not want to have a lose, so adding more troops to add to the conflict... This could be a good move, it should help keep the enemy pinned down, boost morral amoungst the troops already there, and show the Iraq people the USA are trying their best to help.  But on the bad side, if a lose still occurs a few months after the re-enforcements get there, its going to be a very big lose, and no doubt gain respect for the factions.  Even if the USA leaves troops there until a new head of Iraq is appointed, and then withdraws the troops, it wont take long before the police there and the goverment army get knocked out of power.

I hope some good other than Saddam being over-thrown comes out of this conflict...

On another note... WHO keeps lowering my REP ?... LOL (I was 80 the Friday just past, and I have not been online to upset anyone...)

Quote from: landofshadows on January 14, 2007, 11:56:57 PM
If we was to pull out now, It would leave Iraq in a bad way, the police there are not eqiped to deal with the factions and resistance.

I don't think the full scale of what they would have been facing was fully realised beofre the invaision... and now its all about saving face and trying to get a certain level of peace before withdrawing.

Bush does not want to have a lose, so adding more troops to add to the conflict... This could be a good move, it should help keep the enemy pinned down, boost morral amoungst the troops already there, and show the Iraq people the USA are trying their best to help.  But on the bad side, if a lose still occurs a few months after the re-enforcements get there, its going to be a very big lose, and no doubt gain respect for the factions.

I agree with much of this. That I say this to one of your points is new and it's kind of scary.

QuoteEven if the USA leaves troops there until a new head of Iraq is appointed, and then withdraws the troops, it wont take long before the police there and the goverment army get knocked out of power.

I imagine the US would keep bases in Iraq, not leaving at least one or two bases in South Vietnam was a mistake that shouldn't be repeated.

QuoteI hope some good other than Saddam being over-thrown comes out of this conflict...

In the long run, it's quite likely.

QuoteOn another note... WHO keeps lowering my REP ?... LOL (I was 80 the Friday just past, and I have not been online to upset anyone...)

What's that?

QuoteWhat's that?

You see under peoples AVA's they have + & - signs... you can click them to add REP or take it away from them... I loose around 4 points a day.

And you seem to gain about 2 a day.

QuoteI agree with much of this. That I say this to one of your points is new and it's kind of scary.

I have been doing some home work...LOL  Reading loads on Wiki, the argueement both ways still stands, but at the end of the day, only history will be able to tell whats for the better good and what is not.  And as we can't see the fututre we shouldn't speculate too much.  So rather then me commenting on some thing that has not happened I figure I may aswell comment om stuff that is happening and give a slight view into each way this conflict could turn, rather than Painting it Black "as the Rolling stones would say"...

QuoteI imagine the US would keep bases in Iraq, not leaving at least one or two bases in South Vietnam was a mistake that shouldn't be repeated.

If they don't leave some sort of Support the people of Iraq may just see it as the USA is cutting and running, bit like in the film 3 kings I guess.

QuoteIn the long run, it's quite likely.

I suppose its given the people there a different view, and some of the restrictions around their lives have been lifted, even those that don't like forign troops in their country will no doubt still want to hold on to a few of the changes the conflict brought, I guess it gives them building blocks to work from.

Its a shame though that so much Human life had to be wasted to gain these results.