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Big Bang Theory

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This will probably end up being a pointless topic, but hey, we have nothing better to talk about around here, right? Of course, this is a few weeks old, but I'm sure most of you didn't know, so... well, here:

"New NASA space-probe observations of the oldest light in the cosmos are the most direct evidence yet that the universe expanded extremely quickly immediately after the big bang, physicists say.

Charles Bennett of Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland, led the team overseeing NASA's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP). He and colleagues announced the new results Thursday in a teleconference."


Click link below to read full story.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...7_big_bang.html
:tinysmile:

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I've never believed in this. How'd all that energy get there?

I will gladly answer.My religion studies the big bang and life.So I can say it backwords all the way till january.
The energy...IS INSIDE THE BIG BOOM!The energy..Was just always there.It didn't pop out of nowhere its been there since the beggining and soon...The big boom will start over again but reversed.The sun will die.then the energy will disappear and the big crunch will appear and we will all be sucked back up again.I mean..Think of it as a garbage disposal  :evil:

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They say the sun isn't supposed to die for about 4 billion years. I think we're cool for now.  8-)
:tinysmile:

Yeah but how do they know that  :?

Stars live for about hmm 10 billion years..The universe formated 6 billion years ago. So yeah..Your right.


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2 things
1:link dosent work
2:i belive in reincardation (were u die then u are born again has someone else)
if reincardation is true then we will all see the sun die.o well its not like ill remeber posting this if im reborn has a moth.
Yay i got a zoo sort of
 

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That's odd, the link was working when I posted it.  :?
:tinysmile:

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Doesnt work for me either, the site opens and the topic title has the error, it doesnt come...
Arlen is hot.

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I didnt read much of the topic, so I'll just say that I think that the universe is always expanding, so fast that If we made plans to reach the edge the edge would be somewhere else., as it expanded too far out. Far out, one of my favourite couples :)
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True dat, amigeeoh.

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Quit posting in intelligent debate if that's all you're going to add.
bringing sexy back

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Sorry, I forgot about where I was posting. I won't do it again.

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Nasa is always talking about "old light" absorbed from some space probe... ok if we can see so far into space and we "know" so much why are we're still barely discovering new planets in our own solar system

The Big Bang Theory is just that... a Theory... and it happens to be very hard to prove

and even if it does exist and we are all just waiting for that inevitable crunch then when it does crunch we'll all be dead and there will be nobody left to say "ha the big bang theory is true"

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Nasa is always talking about "old light" absorbed from some space probe... ok if we can see so far into space and we "know" so much why are we're still barely discovering new planets in our own solar system

The Big Bang Theory is just that... a Theory... and it happens to be very hard to prove

and even if it does exist and we are all just waiting for that inevitable crunch then when it does crunch we'll all be dead and there will be nobody left to say "ha the big bang theory is true"

I agree. You can´t really prove to yourself that you came out of your mother, can you? They can tell you it´s the truth, but it doesn´t have to be. Also, can you prove that you exist? Well, how?! That´s why I agree. Thinking about something is one thing, theory is one thing, but reality and proof is something completely different.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2006, 03:28:08 PM by Blizzard »
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If we are reincarnated, and thesun is dead, we will all die immediantely anyway. We cant live without the sun, you know. my mommy told me so.
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well we won't exactly be reincarnated as humans... I dont belive in reincarnation but... I think that hinduism belives in reincarnation on a level if you're good or bad...

if you're good... a richer person

if you're bad.... like a spotted owl or a dog

@blizzard totally know what you're talking about... and I agree

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Yeah, I´m smart and sexy. :=
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r u grl? lol hahaha

sorry back on topic... I pose a question? Where did that energy come from... lets therorize
Edit:

ha I saw this bumber sticker on my way home from work, and then I found it on the internet...

any way this poeses another intresting question. Maybe god created all of this through a "big bang" so to speak
« Last Edit: September 29, 2006, 01:20:46 AM by Atomic »

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No, that´s me:



That on my ave is just some random hot chick.
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r u grl? lol hahaha

sorry back on topic... I pose a question? Where did that energy come from... lets therorize
Edit:

ha I saw this bumber sticker on my way home from work, and then I found it on the internet...

any way this poeses another intresting question. Maybe god created all of this through a "big bang" so to speak

That is what I believe as well. Anything that man can "discover" is God's idea, I say.

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no idea what Blizzards on about ( ::)) but all the rich people are evil in the movies, evil and selfish, too.
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no idea what Blizzards on about ( ::)) but all the rich people are evil in the movies, evil and selfish, too.
bit off topic but thats because it makes it easier for average people to relate to the good guys
Zypher, Veltonvelton, and Dalton are secretly having a homosexual affair in hidden messages just like this one
research shows Fu is also involved, but not in a gross and creepy way

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no its cos they steal a lot of money.
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are we still on topic.... BIG BANG

"Here begin the torments of Hell proper" -Danta's inferno

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If there is proof that the big bang will happen soon, i will eat lots of stuff. there-on topic.
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The sun is only going to be destroyed when an outside force greatly influences the gravital rate of the asteroid belt. If that happens then it is highly probable, granted the fact that the sun continues to swell due to age, that any solar flares will catch on the gravital rift of the pull and act as a siphon, and the gravity itself will slowly curl the gas as it travels around the sun starting the condensing process, (Black Hole), that we are are all highly familiar to.

It's just a theory, but it explains why black holes are formed.
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I believe in creation.

Simply because -
  • I'm christian, and the kinda comes with the package ;)
  • The ammount of mass needed to create the universe would be so massive, that its own gravity would make it collapse upon itself creating a black hole.
  • It deny's making something out of nothing, when in essence it states the same thing, the energy didn't come out of nowhere, it has always been (I dunno, God maybe?) and then it denys that too saying it had to be created. Hypocritical eh? And if you deny that there was mass involved, then you're saying that the energy itself created the mass we see today.

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I'm also Christian and I also believe in the Genesis. But I also believe in something like the Big Bang. In other words, I'd say, God (or some higher force) made the "Big Bang" happen, whatever the Big Bang actually REALLY was.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2006, 02:25:32 PM by Blizzard »
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hah you arent sith now.

I beleive in the force.
I was once a jehovah's witness though.
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the force isn't real...

"Here begin the torments of Hell proper" -Danta's inferno

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True, the force isn't real. I was only messing with you in the other topic, velton². And I will continue messing with you.
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heh. The force is real. shutup.
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see hes using the force to bounce that kit kat sign

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go velton velton

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Go Veltonvelton!
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Go away, velton³. :=
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:= is a rabbit.
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:= is a skull and now back on topic:

velton³ was created before the big bang. And then "The Creator" thought: "Ew... Good I was just warming up...".

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No, God said 'Wow, I'll base all of my creations on that mighty being!'
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Please not this a from a religious point of view (hindu). Please don't be offended in any way.

The Big Bang, in other word for god. God, blew apart of himself up(said the word AUM), and thus the universe was born. God created space. God created air; dust and gases. From that dust and gas, fire was born, the sun. From the sun, earth, soil, rock was born. From that, water and consumed planets, giving them life. That is why everything is considered have god within them. That is why there is comman bond between everything in the universe. Some call it god, science, and some even call it the FORCE.

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That's an interesting idea. I don't think anybody could be offended by this. I mean, all in all, we don't know what REALLY happened, we can only speculate.
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actually, we know until just after it happened so we know a large amount of what happened, just not what was there before the bang and what set it off
Zypher, Veltonvelton, and Dalton are secretly having a homosexual affair in hidden messages just like this one
research shows Fu is also involved, but not in a gross and creepy way

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I disagree, we have the option to spectulate. What makes us different, unqie, special, a hero or a villian is what we do while the rest watch. ;D

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ummm no, see the further out you look the further back in time things you see are, through this we can actually watch as parts of the universe form that formed many many many years ago
Zypher, Veltonvelton, and Dalton are secretly having a homosexual affair in hidden messages just like this one
research shows Fu is also involved, but not in a gross and creepy way


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Is this the Second Coming, or the Fourth Reich?
I believe in creation.

Simply because -
  • I'm christian, and the kinda comes with the package ;)
  • The ammount of mass needed to create the universe would be so massive, that its own gravity would make it collapse upon itself creating a black hole.
  • It deny's making something out of nothing, when in essence it states the same thing, the energy didn't come out of nowhere, it has always been (I dunno, God maybe?) and then it denys that too saying it had to be created. Hypocritical eh? And if you deny that there was mass involved, then you're saying that the energy itself created the mass we see today.

1) No it doesn't. The Roman Catholic church says the Big Bang is compatible with Christian theology.
2) [before I say anything else, let me say that I am not a physicist] When the universe was a singularity and shortly thereafter the laws of nature did not function in the same way. Anyway, the BB wasn't an explosion but an expansion of space itself. Mind bending, I know. While it is hard to conceive of such a thing remember that it is also hard to think of four-dimensional objects and the enormous distance between stars.
3) The Big Bang theory doesn't preclude the existence of a Creator. Where did you get the rest of this information?

actually, we know until just after it happened so we know a large amount of what happened, just not what was there before the bang and what set it off

Exactly.

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A black hole is effectively nothing, yet it holds more power than anything else know to us currently... what if nothing was so vastly nothing it created something... and that some-thing was more powerful than any subbstance or atom's we know... what if it was so volitile it ignited inside of the vast nothingness creating soild mass and giant balls of fire... as a result... Planets and Suns...

Its hard to equate it to much... Think of it this way, you have a pee-tree dish... you put nothing in it apart from one simple cell of Bacteria... then within a few months you have loads of stuff going on in there...

So say if  the vast nothing of space had so much negitive space it created a Positive atom then exploaded...?

I dunno... But you can never have a Negative with out a positive or and up with out a down... equalibrium and shite...

Right well may be I am talking arse again... like most of the time... but in my twisted little work it makes sense...LOL

(like Squezzing a Rock will some how make a Diamond, a pefect Complex merlecular structure... that same theory I am applying to the Vast nothingness of space Squezzing onto effectivly nothing)
 


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Is this the Second Coming, or the Fourth Reich?
A black hole is effectively nothing, yet it holds more power than anything else know to us currently... what if nothing was so vastly nothing it created something... and that some-thing was more powerful than any subbstance or atom's we know... what if it was so volitile it ignited inside of the vast nothingness creating soild mass and giant balls of fire... as a result... Planets and Suns...

Its hard to equate it to much... Think of it this way, you have a pee-tree dish... you put nothing in it apart from one simple cell of Bacteria... then within a few months you have loads of stuff going on in there...

So say if  the vast nothing of space had so much negitive space it created a Positive atom then exploaded...?

I dunno... But you can never have a Negative with out a positive or and up with out a down... equalibrium and shite...

Right well may be I am talking arse again... like most of the time... but in my twisted little work it makes sense...LOL

(like Squezzing a Rock will some how make a Diamond, a pefect Complex merlecular structure... that same theory I am applying to the Vast nothingness of space Squezzing onto effectivly nothing)

None of this means anything.

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So about that money...
No, he's serious. That was a bunch of gibberish.

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That post makes me hate the world, LOS.
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It's fucking sad that you and the cat can't stick to the subject and even attempt to defend your little bullshit religion without jumping to personal attacks, maybe thats because evolution is such a stupid idea it's hard to back it up with any claims pertaining to reality.

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It was mainly Gibberish... But are we supposed to understand the uneriverse... What if the Universe is Gibberish...
 


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Is this the Second Coming, or the Fourth Reich?
It was mainly Gibberish... But are we supposed to understand the uneriverse... What if the Universe is Gibberish...

Do some damage control and quietly leave this thread.

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Something being born from Nothing is a widely discussed part of Theology... So I don't see why its so hard to grasp that in the start of time there was Nothing... so Much of it, it spawned some thing...

Here's a little on it:- http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nothingness/

Say if you dive down into the largest Creviss in the World (Far under the sea)... there is nothing down there apart from a Massive pressure... you expolad into load of bits (For a simple example)... Now imagine Space is for ever expanding and the pressures of it forever growing, and say that force ignited its self... And blew its self apart... what if effectivley... Thats all I am saying... Theory... and thats what this thread is Theory...

So do one Jesus Hitler... I will comment as I see fit...

All you have Added so far is NO IT DOESN'T and jumping down people's throats... so whats your take on the Big Bang Theory...???

All I have said is I concure with the Theory and in my mind its Conceviable !!!
« Last Edit: November 29, 2006, 12:29:09 PM by landofshadows »
 


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Is this the Second Coming, or the Fourth Reich?
Something being born from Nothing is a widely discussed part of Theology... So I don't see why its so hard to grasp that in the start of time there was Nothing... so Much of it, it spawned some thing...

The only theory I am putting down right now is the one you got from a random word generator.

Quote
Here's a little on it:- http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nothingness/

I didn't read all of that and I doubt you did, either.

Quote
Say if you dive down into the largest Creviss in the World (Far under the sea)... there is nothing down there apart from a Massive pressure... you expolad into load of bits (For a simple example)... Now imagine Space is for ever expanding and the pressures of it forever growing, and say that force ignited its self... And blew its self apart... what if effectivley... Thats all I am saying... Theory... and thats what this thread is Theory...

This thread is indeed about theories, but that doesn't mean that you can just shout out anything you want and not expect criticism. Anyway, your example is wrong because in that crevasse (which is in the sea, not "under it") there is water, animals, and more matter besides. Pressure is a thing, and if there was "negative space", whatever that is, then there is indeed something. What is wrong with there not being a beginning to the universe?

Quote
So do one Jesus Hitler... I will comment as I see fit...

I already know how the universe was created. You can read about it here.

Quote
All you have Added so far is NO IT DOESN'T and jumping down people's throats... so whats your take on the Big Bang Theory...???

Why can't I shoot down people's without submitting my own? I may not know what the universe's origins are, but I know with much certainty that what you and others here are not correct.

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So about that money...
It was mainly Gibberish... But are we supposed to understand the uneriverse... What if the Universe is Gibberish...

Do some damage control and quietly leave this thread.

Concordo....

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I read that link you pointed to:- http://www.xanga.com/Prophet_of_Gawd

Its more Gibberish than what I wrote... was you being Sarcastic...???? Its Nuts... kind of funny though...

And the thing about reaching the lowest area's UNDER the sea, we have not yet reached the lowest part, we have not made any-thing that can with-stand the pressure... the furthest we reached was in an unmanned craft fitted with Camera's and it picked up Crabs that glowed and some other odd small fish etc, but they said on the documentry I was watching that any creature larger unless evolved in those conditions would impload...

Fu... What???... Are you drunk again ?

At least Jesus Hitler is intelligent with his answers... your one liners are hardly worth the effort it takes you to type them... I actually enjoy reading Jesus Hitlers replies... He shows reasoning and makes an effort...

Any way back to topic

I was thinking if the Universe is always expanding than it has a mass or a size constraint... Right ?... So what is at the Edges of the Universe ?... How big is it... some say its infinate... but how can it be, if its growing ? (does that just make it more infinate day by day)...

I doubt there is a God...

This is what I think...

I think when some thing living dies its energy is realsed and that energy is pulled to the centre of the universe and it joins a flow (like a Figure of eight) and in the cross over section a friction is caused and that forms Perfectly Round planets (like blowing bubbles)... So life spawing life... Energy never dies it just changes forms... thats why whe you die you loose 32grams... thats why some creatures only live long enough to reproduce... its all about energy...

But why ?... and how did it all start, any ones guess could be right... even the God Theory... I do Agree With Jesus Hitler, No body's Answer could even come close... its no doubt past our understanding....

Buts its fun making up idea's and stories, alternate worlds, realities etc... I guess that why we all making RPG's

I wonder what people in the 18th Centry would have thought if they watched the Matrix.. people just didn't think that way back then... may be one day people will be so free of thought that the Matrix to them will seem like the Wizard of OZ to us... and may be then some bright spark will have the real answer to the Big Bang Theory...
 


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So about that money...
Fu... What???... Are you drunk again ?

No. In case you forgot, I stopped drinking a WHILE ago.

Also the reason I'm doing one liners is, I'm fucking tired.

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Glad you stopped drinking... Who's the chick in your siggy ?

Fu Whats your Theory of the Big Bang ? (or how the world started)
 


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I will gladly answer.My religion studies the big bang and life.So I can say it backwords all the way till january.
The energy...IS INSIDE THE BIG BOOM!The energy..Was just always there.It didn't pop out of nowhere its been there since the beggining and soon...The big boom will start over again but reversed.The sun will die.then the energy will disappear and the big crunch will appear and we will all be sucked back up again.I mean..Think of it as a garbage disposal  :evil:

energy could not have been there forever. we live in a closed system, the unaverse. we do not get any more energy from any where. so in energy was there for ever. we would have used up all the energy by now.

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How old is this topic? But: HAHAHAHAHAHA!

The idea that a big bang is what started of the universe came from the point that the universe is currently expanding, and because it is going out wards, at some point the direct opposite must of happened, we predicted that due to the rate of increased expansion, that by putting what is happening now in reverse, the entire universe was at some point the size of a pin head. Giving us the idea that an explosion started off our home.

Now: As to the universe expanding: there are two theories on the matter, one is that it will expand for a very long time, long enough that the universe would collapse in on itself.

The other theory is that surrounding us, every were, is something called "Dark Matter" now, with out going into what that is, it is *hoped* that this tiny tiny force would be strong enough to slow the expansion of the universe and stop it from expanding. Many how ever doubt the power of dark matter, and even gravity, to do this job.

As to how the bigbang happened: Well the reason why string theory is *SUCH* a big hit, is not because it's anything that amazing in itself, but it's because it explains, oh-so much, one of the things that string theory would reveal to us is this: PARALLEL UNIVERSES! Basically our universe, and many others, are like big plates, consistently moving and being quite close together.
///// < like this and moving in a wavy motion.

What does this say about the bigbang? Well, a lot. With these universes contently moving, it can be seen that they would in cases ( maybe it happens a lot, or possibly infrequently ) hit into each other. What would happen if two giant universes collided? Well, the first reaction would be energy being release, a lot of it, AKA, the BIG FUCKING BANG.

TAKE THAT GOD!
« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 08:26:54 AM by Dr_Sexalicious »

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Wow, that's cool! It's the first time I've heard this type of theory. It's very interesting. :)
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Glad you stopped drinking... Who's the chick in your siggy ?

Fu Whats your Theory of the Big Bang ? (or how the world started)

You know whats ironic, I started drinking again.

Also I'll just link you guys to the eddas, I'm too tired to explain.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/

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The Big Bang Theory is just a Theory... I know that's obvious cuz it's the fricken title and all but just pointing that little gem out...

So Theories until proven can be questioned and counter theories made... So here is mine.

Imagine if you will the symbol of infinity (A large figure of eight = 8)... But imaging that as being a stream of enrgy, from living creature nolonger living, they move within that stream and at the cross over point in the area the stream collides I think a new planet or star can be born... I thing each dimension has one of these, and being that there is infinate dimensiions means there is an infinate amount of these energy flows... May be the universe as we know it started by a counter effect in a different dimension... I dunno...

If the universe is expnading what's at the outer edges ?...

We know every thing that is exerted to great amounts of Pressure is round... May be the univers is too... Like say when you drop a stone into a bowl of water the rippples flow out in circles, but if the was no bowl than what would hold the body of water ?...  What if there is an outer edge to the univers, what if that outer edge was a living creature and we are only a single cell to it... I dunno... But may me to the baceria inside us they see us as their universe...

I think the Universe and the workings are much greater than we will ever know... and I think things are too perfect for things to be down to a BIG BANG or GOD...

I think we reproduce for a reason, life creates life for a reason... Whats the point if we blink out iunto nothing... And to say the universe was created by mistake / BIG BANG or GOD is laughable.
 


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The Big Bang Theory is just a Theory... So Theories until proven can be questioned and counter theories made...
No theory has been proven.


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I think the Universe and the workings are much greater than we will ever know... and I think things are too perfect for things to be down to a BIG BANG or GOD...
Were have you been living? Bigbang was never stated as the FINAL theory on life's creation, nor if proved will it answer anything regarding our existence on a grand scale. We already know there was a bigbang, we just don't know what caused it.

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And to say the universe was created by mistake / BIG BANG or GOD is laughable.
I truely don't see how, what your saying is more then odd. Your "laughable" ideas conflict with each other, people use god to combat the idea of nothingness, the bigbang happened and has heavy points to show that is how this universe started and the idea that this is just a mistake, is because every thing that we've seen so far points to it being just that.

Not to upset you, but your theories sound like they belong in an RPG, not intelligent debate.
The only thing I agree with is;
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I think the Universe and the workings are much greater than we will ever know...
No matter how many answers you have, there will always need to be an answer for your answer.

If bigbang created the universe then what created that, and then what created the thing that created the bigbang? And so on...

   

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OK... So if the Universe is expanding, that means it must have some thing to the outeredge else how do you define it's size... And if it has an outer edge then it must also have a Centre or starting point... We have not yet located either of the two.

Until we do we can only speculate on how large the universe is... Some people say it's infinate... but if that was true how comes it's growing ?

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No theory has been proven.

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We already know there was a bigbang

Sorry I am confussed... Has the Big Bang Theory now moved from Theory to real scince ?...  If we all know there WAS a Big Bang why are we even debating it ?...  And what proof do we have exactly ?...

So what if the Universe is expanding doesn't equate to a large explosion in the centere of it, I mean how can an explosions cause hard matter to appear from nothing ?

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Not to upset you, but your theories sound like they belong in an RPG, not intelligent debate.

Yeah my idea sounds like some thing from an RPG... But the Big Bang Thats extreamly plausable... One day the Centre of the universe (We don't know the exact point of the centre) Exploaded for no good reason creating all that you see now, and its still creating stuff and growing right now... It's almost like saying Gods molding planets from dust.

I dunno what started the Universe or what there was in the beging of time... Hell who's to say other creatures are even effected by time... We only know of 3Dimensions (or can only prove 3 of them) There could be the dimension of Times, Light and many others we can't even imagine... May be we aren't supposed to know what started stuff off.
 


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No theory has been proven.
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We already know there was a bigbang
Sorry I am confussed... Has the Big Bang Theory now moved from Theory to real scince ?...  If we all know there WAS a Big Bang why are we even debating it ?...  And what proof do we have exactly ?...
I'm saying that in the way that we "know" gravity is real, while it still remains a theory... Other then it's effects, how can you prove gravity exists? The evidence is there, it really comes down to using maths, and what's currently happening ( the expansion of the universe ) to choose an idea that makes the most sense. We can accurately see what is happening in the universe by using the expansion and the increasing speed that the universe is moving, because it is increasing in speed rather then staying at a maintained rate, it can be determined that it was a mass release of energy that started the universe. By putting the rate of acceleration in reverse, we can predict the matters path and can tell that at some point in time the universe was more then close together at it's start. It's using this and many other things to say that the "Bigbang" is the current most explanation of how the universe was created.

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OK... So if the Universe is expanding, that means it must have some thing to the outeredge else how do you define it's size... And if it has an outer edge then it must also have a Centre or starting point... We have not yet located either of the two.
We haven't located many things. I'm sure there are plenty of place in the world which you haven't traveled to but I'm think you believe they still exist. Why? Because you go with the most accurate choice in life. It would be stupid to not pick the horse most likely to win. Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it's not there.

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One day the Centre of the universe (We don't know the exact point of the centre) Exploaded for no good reason creating all that you see now, and its still creating stuff and growing right now... It's almost like saying Gods molding planets from dust.
Wow, just wow. That is something I would expect a religious zealot to say. Perhaps you should learn more on the subject before blindly throwing out ideas..? I have never heard any one say that the explosion came from nothing. I've heard them say there was an explosion, with just cause to... We don't know how complex life was created, but we know it was created. There will never be an answer that doesn't lead to another question.


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May be we aren't supposed to know what started stuff off.
Oh, why? Because it's hard to explain? Perhaps they shouldn't of climbed Mt. Everest, or have gone to the moon, hell, why don't we all just end our lives now and just be done with it?
 


« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 01:22:16 PM by Deliciously_Saucy »

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Type something that can be replied to as well, not just "OMG it SUX"

You said some thing about Dimensuinal Waves and like interstellar plate shifts could have caused it... Again, not proven.

None of this has been proven, nobody can say for sure a Big Bang started the universe...

Nobody can say what satrted human life for sure... Some say its Evolution, but by now we would have seen some changes in creatures on our planet now...

The Big Bang just doesn't sit well with me... I know if you exhert emence pressure on any gas or liquid it can cause an explosion, I am not saying it's beyond comprehension, all I am saying is, is how did the Big Bang create Matter from nothing ?...

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I'm saying that in the way that we "know" gravity is real, while it still remains a theory... Other then it's effects, how can you prove gravity exists?

Gravity is a known scince it not really regarded as a theory any more... The Big Bang is just as much a Theory as Darwins Theory or the Theory of Time travel... They have not been proven as yet... it's very different.

The way we are working out the rate of expansion of the universe is based on Light and distance... simple variables, nothing to do with the Big Bang...

I the points I have raised are very valid one... For some thing to be growing it needs a Base for its size, there fore must have a limit, if it is infinate then how is it growing... Is it just getting more infinate...?

And if your saying one day the universe will empload like the Expansion suck back in on it's self what then will happen... Will all the planets be sucking into a vacuum and made to the size of a pin head, Then Bang it all happens again... If so why ?...

Whats the point in that... If thats your theory then you quote stands:-

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Oh, why? Because it's hard to explain? Perhaps they shouldn't of climbed Mt. Everest, or have gone to the moon, hell, why don't we all just end our lives now and just be done with it?

We climbed Mount Everest cuz people have a little hobby called mountain climbing... Sad I know... But it exsists.  We went to the moon to further our space exploration and to test our technology in rocket design... So on that note if working out what started the universe is as simple as climbing a LARGE Hill or Going to a Moon in our solar system may be I will take up God like knowedge as a hobby or a carrier ?...LOL

I don't see how you can liken the instances you just gave...

The Big Bang Theory is Scince's version of the Bible, it has jsut as many questionable holes
 


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You said some thing about Dimensuinal Waves and like interstellar plate shifts could have caused it... Again, not proven.
I was giving them a possible answer, I don't recall saying anything along the lines that it was close to a fact.

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Nobody can say what satrted human life for sure... Some say its Evolution, but by now we would have seen some changes in creatures on our planet now...
Are you doubting evolution, or Darwinism? If it's the first... Let me know, because the last time I checked there where plenty of changes...

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Big Bang create Matter from nothing ?...
Again, "Nothing", please quote some one saying that the bigbang created everything from nothing. What is matter...? Did you know we are all made of the same thing, simple "Star dust"? Do you know how it's created, matter that is..?

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Gravity is a known scince it not really regarded as a theory any more...
And yet it is. Unless you are god, nothing can be proven.

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And if your saying one day the universe will empload like the Expansion suck back in on it's self what then will happen... Will all the planets be sucking into a vacuum and made to the size of a pin head, Then Bang it all happens again... If so why ?...
Yes and no. It's the "if so why?" part that's gotten me... How was that meant to be phrased? Is that, "if so why is fate so cruel?", because that's how it sounded.

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I don't see how you can liken the instances you just gave...
Lol, you can't? How can you possible say that we shouldn't, or are "not meant" to understand the makings of the universe? I compare them quite easily.. Both where considered impossible feats, it's called progression. The statement you made came off as, "It's too complex so why bother?" which is weak and sad.

U'r a smart ass :)
I'll take that as pointed at me.


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I was giving them a possible answer, I don't recall saying anything along the lines that it was close to a fact.

That's why I said "could have caused it"... Please read my posts... I am not attacking you.

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Are you doubting evolution, or Darwinism? If it's the first... Let me know, because the last time I checked there where plenty of changes...

Many people question Darwins theory... That's why its still a Theory:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin

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Darwin's Theory of Evolution - A Theory In Crisis
Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a theory in crisis in light of the tremendous advances we've made in molecular biology, biochemistry and genetics over the past fifty years. We now know that there are in fact tens of thousands of irreducibly complex systems on the cellular level. Specified complexity pervades the microscopic biological world. Molecular biologist Michael Denton wrote, "Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, weighing less than 10-12 grams, each is in effect a veritable micro-miniaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery, made up altogether of one hundred thousand million atoms, far more complicated than any machinery built by man and absolutely without parallel in the non-living world."

And we don't need a microscope to observe irreducible complexity. The eye, the ear and the heart are all examples of irreducible complexity, though they were not recognized as such in Darwin's day. Nevertheless, Darwin confessed, "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." 

The Big Bag is still a Theory... Its not Proven:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

And here is why it's being questioned as it has MANY holes like I have been saying:-

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Features, issues and problems
While currently there are very few researchers who doubt the Big Bang occurred, in the past the community was divided between supporters of the Big Bang and supporters of alternative cosmological models. Throughout the historical development of the subject, problems with the Big Bang theory were posed in the context of a scientific controversy regarding which model could best describe the cosmological observations (see history section above). With the overwhelming consensus in the community today supporting the Big Bang model, many of these problems are remembered as being mainly of historical interest; the solutions to them have been obtained either through modifications to the theory or as the result of better observations. Other issues, such as the cuspy halo problem and the dwarf galaxy problem of cold dark matter, are not considered to be fatal as they can be addressed through further refinements of the theory.

The Big Bang model admits very exotic physical phenomena that include dark matter, dark energy, and cosmic inflation which rely on conditions and physics that have not yet been observed in terrestrial laboratory experiments. While explanations for such phenomena remain at the frontiers of inquiry in physics, independent observations of Big Bang nucleosynthesis, the cosmic microwave background, large scale structure and Type Ia supernovae strongly suggest the phenomena are important and real cosmological features of our universe. The gravitational effects of these features are understood observationally and theoretically but they have not yet been successfully incorporated into the Standard Model of particle physics. Though some aspects of the theory remain inadequately explained by fundamental physics, almost all cosmologists accept that the close agreement between Big Bang theory and observation have firmly established all the basic parts of the theory.

The following is a short list of Big Bang "problems" and puzzles:


Horizon problem
Main article: Horizon problem
The horizon problem results from the premise that information cannot travel faster than light, and hence two regions of space which are separated by a greater distance than the speed of light multiplied by the age of the universe cannot be in causal contact.[24] The observed isotropy of the cosmic microwave background (CMB) is problematic in this regard, because the horizon size at that time corresponds to a size that is about 2 degrees on the sky. If the universe has had the same expansion history since the Planck epoch, there is no mechanism to cause these regions to have the same temperature.

A resolution to this apparent inconsistency is offered by inflationary theory in which a homogeneous and isotropic scalar energy field dominates the universe at a time 10-35 seconds after the Planck epoch. During inflation, the universe undergoes exponential expansion, and regions in causal contact expand so as to be beyond each other's horizons. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle predicts that during the inflationary phase there would be quantum thermal fluctuations, which would be magnified to cosmic scale. These fluctuations serve as the seeds of all current structure in the universe. After inflation, the universe expands according to Hubble's law, and regions that were out of causal contact come back into the horizon. This explains the observed isotropy of the CMB. Inflation predicts that the primordial fluctuations are nearly scale invariant and Gaussian which has been accurately confirmed by measurements of the CMB.


Flatness problem
 
The overall geometry of the universe is determined by whether the Omega cosmological parameter is less than, equal to or greater than 1. From top to bottom: geometry in a closed universe, an open universe and a flat universe.Main article: Flatness problem
The flatness problem is an observational problem associated with a Friedmann-Lemaître-Robertson-Walker metric.[24] In general, the universe can have three kinds of geometries -- hyperbolic geometry, Euclidean geometry, or elliptic geometry -- depending on the total energy density of the universe as measured by means of the stress-energy tensor. It is hyperbolic if its density is less than the critical density, elliptic if greater, and Euclidean at the critical density. The universe must have been within one part in 1015 of the critical density in its earliest stages, or it would have caused either a Heat Death or a Big Crunch, and the universe would not exist as it does today.

A possible resolution to this problem is again offered by inflationary theory. During the inflationary period, spacetime expanded to such an extent that any residual curvature associated with it would have been smoothed out to a high degree of precision. Thus, it is believed that inflation drove the universe to be very nearly spatially flat.


Magnetic monopoles
The magnetic monopole objection was raised in the late 1970s. Grand unification theories predicted point defects in space that would manifest as magnetic monopoles with a density much higher than was consistent with observations, given that searches have never found any monopoles. This problem is also resolvable by cosmic inflation, which removes all point defects from the observable universe in the same way that it drives the geometry to flatness.[24]


Baryon asymmetry
It is not yet understood why the universe has more matter than antimatter.[24] It is generally assumed that when the universe was young and very hot, it was in statistical equilibrium and contained equal numbers of baryons and anti-baryons. However, observations suggest that the universe, including its most distant parts, is made almost entirely of matter. An unknown process called baryogenesis created the asymmetry. For baryogenesis to occur, the Sakharov conditions, which were laid out by Andrei Sakharov, must be satisfied. They require that baryon number be not conserved, that C-symmetry and CP-symmetry be violated, and that the universe depart from thermodynamic equilibrium.[27] All these conditions occur in the Standard Model, but the effect is not strong enough to explain the present baryon asymmetry.[28] Experiments taking place at CERN near Geneva seek to trap enough anti-hydrogen to compare its spectrum with hydrogen. Any difference would be evidence of a CPT symmetry violation and therefore a Lorentz violation.


Globular cluster age
In the mid-1990s, observations of globular clusters appeared to be inconsistent with the Big Bang. Computer simulations that matched the observations of the stellar populations of globular clusters suggested that they were about 15 billion years old, which conflicted with the 13.7-billion-year age of the universe. This issue was generally resolved in the late 1990s when new computer simulations, which included the effects of mass loss due to stellar winds, indicated a much younger age for globular clusters.[29] There still remain some questions as to how accurately the ages of the clusters are measured, but it is clear that these objects are some of the oldest in the universe.


Dark matter
Main article: Dark matter
 
A pie chart indicating the proportional composition of different energy-density components of the universe, according to the best ?CDM model fits. Roughly ninety-five percent is in the exotic forms of dark matter and dark energy.During the 1970s and 1980s, various observations (notably of galactic rotation curves) showed that there is not sufficient visible matter in the universe to account for the apparent strength of gravitational forces within and between galaxies. This led to the idea that up to 90% of the matter in the universe is not normal or baryonic matter but rather dark matter. In addition, the assumption that the universe is mostly normal matter led to predictions that were strongly inconsistent with observations. In particular, the universe is far less lumpy and contains far less deuterium than can be accounted for without dark matter. While dark matter was initially controversial, it is now widely accepted in standard cosmology due to observations of the anisotropies in the CMB, galaxy cluster velocity dispersions, large-scale structure distributions, gravitational lensing studies, and x-ray measurements from galaxy clusters. In August 2006, dark matter was definitively observed through measurements of colliding galaxies in the Bullet Cluster.[30][31]

The detection of dark matter is sensitive only to its gravitational signature, and no dark matter particles have been observed in laboratories. Many particle physics candidates for dark matter have been proposed, however, and several projects to detect them directly are underway.


Dark energy
Main article: Dark energy
In the 1990s, detailed measurements of the mass density of the universe revealed a value that was 30% that of the critical density.[9] Since the universe is very nearly spatially flat, as is indicated by measurements of the cosmic microwave background, about 70% of the energy density of the universe was left unaccounted for. This mystery now appears to be connected to another one: Independent measurements of Type Ia supernovae have revealed that the expansion of the universe is undergoing a non-linear acceleration. To explain this acceleration, general relativity requires that much of the universe consist of an energy component with large negative pressure. This dark energy is now thought to make up the missing 70%. Its nature remains one of the great mysteries of the Big Bang. Possible candidates include a scalar cosmological constant and quintessence making up physical vacuum. Observations to help understand this are ongoing. Results from WMAP in 2006 indicate that the universe is 74% dark energy, 22% dark matter, and 4% regular matter.

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And yet it is. Unless you are god, nothing can be proven.

Gravity - Is Not a Theory... It's like Air for Pete Sake...LOL
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity (Read this do you see the word THEORY any place...NOPE)
I know the forumla to Gravity as much as I do working out Ditance and time...LOL
Gravitational force = (G * m1 * m2) / (d2)
where G is the gravitational constant, m1 and m2 are the masses of the two objects for which you are calculating the force, and d is the distance between the centers of gravity of the two masses.

So come on where is your Equation for working out when the universe will empload back upon us then ?...LOL

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"if so why is fate so cruel?", because that's how it sounded.

I am saying some thing as perfect as the uneriverse and life must have more of a purpose than what scince or Faith has to offer... We would be neive to restrict our selves to either of those two notions...

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Lol, you can't? How can you possible say that we shouldn't, or are "not meant" to understand the makings of the universe? I compare them quite easily.. Both where considered impossible feats, it's called progression. The statement you made came off as, "It's too complex so why bother?" which is weak and sad.

I think placing some one elses THEORY as fact in your head is Sad, but there you go...LOL
(What I am saying is the start of every thing is more complex than the Big Bang Theory, if any thing I am saying the Big Bang is too simple an explanation, and I am saying the real cause will elude us for years... I think we need to study life and death better, I think finding the answers to these two factors may give us a better understanding of the universe and the purpose we all belong to).

Try thinking for your-self... read a little on the Big Bang, work out that its a Theory not an Exact scince and examine the Theory before quoting it as Gospel...

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I'll take that as pointed at me.

Your a Smart person... I am not questioning that, but your trying to paint me as the person who knows nothing yet I have done Quantum Physics in my BTEC course... I am not counting out the Big Bang theory, I just don't think it's finished by a long Chalk.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 04:49:37 PM by landofshadows »
 


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Ta Mate...

Deliciously_Saucy

I am not saying the Big Bang Theory is not a great Theory, it is... I can't get passed the fact for some thing to be expanding faster than the speed of light (And that in it's self is deemed not possible) and having no outer boundry to define the rate of growth just makes the Theory for me unfounded.

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Did you know we are all made of the same thing, simple "Star dust"? Do you know how it's created, matter that is..?

Oh and whats this we are all made of Star Dust... We are Carbon Based... Like pretty much every thing on this planet... If you visited a Silicon Based Planet pretty much every creature should be Silcon Based, And I am not going by Darwin's Theory... I am going by Micro-Biology.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 05:33:21 PM by landofshadows »
 


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Your main quoted argument seemed to be on Dark matter, which has ( if not, practically ) been detected.
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/darkmatter-00b1.html
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MACHO, and its sequel, SuperMACHO, are projects that have directly detected dark matter. Dark matter is dark, yet we can observe it through a variety of clever techniques. One such technique involves measuring the brightness of stars and looking for the effects of gravitational microlenses — stars which get brighter for a brief time, once and only once, as the dark matter passes in front of it.
http://www-out.bell-labs.com/news/2000/may/11/1.html

Every theory has flaws.


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That's why I said "could have caused it"...  Please read my posts... I am not attacking you.
I read your words quite fine, state them better if you don't want them confused.

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Many people question Darwins theory... That's why its still a Theory:-
Oh..? Perhaps you should read posts more carefully...
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Are you doubting evolution, or Darwinism? If it's the first... Let me know, because the last time I checked there where plenty of changes...
I never said I found Darwinism to be believable in entirety...

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I think placing some one elses THEORY as fact in your head is Sad, but there you go...LOL
Oh...? I said that..? Please quote it for me...

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I think we need to study life and death better,
Death..? As in an afterlife...?

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Try thinking for your-self... read a little on the Big Bang, work out that its a Theory not an Exact scince and examine the Theory before quoting it as Gospel...
I've read more then a little on the bigbang, and I feel it to be the most accurate theory of explanation. Please don't get petty... Gospel..?
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the "Bigbang" is the current most explanation of how the universe was created.

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but your trying to paint me as the person who knows nothing
I'm afraid that comes from the post you made a few pages back... I just truly don't see why you would be compelled to say that.
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Imagine if you will the symbol of infinity (A large figure of eight = Cool... But imaging that as being a stream of enrgy, from living creature nolonger living, they move within that stream and at the cross over point in the area the stream collides I think a new planet or star can be born... I thing each dimension has one of these, and being that there is infinate dimensiions means there is an infinate amount of these energy flows... May be the universe as we know it started by a counter effect in a different dimension... I dunno...
What if there is an outer edge to the univers, what if that outer edge was a living creature and we are only a single cell to it... I dunno... But may me to the baceria inside us they see us as their universe...

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So come on where is your Equation for working out when the universe will empload back upon us then ?...LOL
I said it was one of the possibilities, not the. Perhaps you can give me an equation for your above theory...?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 05:38:33 PM by Deliciously_Saucy »

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Your main quoted argument seemed to be on Dark matter, which has ( if not, practically ) been detected.

No my reasons of not following the Theory is they haven't addressed some very basic issues...

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Oh...? I said that..? Please quote it for me...

May be I am missunderstanding you... You say it's the most plausable Theory of the start of the universe as we know it... But then for me to say I think its much more than that, and I doubt we will fully understand it until we work out some of the small complexites before we unravel the marvel of the universe is wrong ?...

I think trying to understand How all life started in the Universe, first we need to understand Why life exsists, or what the great purpose is to our exsistance (If any)... Trying things the other way around is like trying to run before you can walk...

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Death..? As in an afterlife...?


Not as such... I think in death your energy is released and used for some thing greater.  Heck it could be that we are food for another dimensional creature far supperior to us... But al least that gives us a purpose.

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Every theory has flaws.

Those flaws can be plugged... Dark matter is moving into the realms of possibility... But those pockets of Dark Matter could be Gas clouds or Electrical storms... Can be all sorts of space phenomanom, heck it could even be a Space Monster that eats energy... Again I still think we are reaching too far too fast, and people are looking at things to fill their own needs to support a Theory (Like I just did).

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I said it was one of the possibilities, not the. Perhaps you can give me an equation for your above theory...?

I guess you mean my Theory of the Infinite shaped Energy ring... It's a dream I had, under anesthetic at the dentist...When I was a Kid...LOL

Ok... Imagine a Figure of 8 Rotating from the center point FAST... it will create what looks like a Inner Tube right...? hollow in the middle with an outer wall of energy... Now the centre the hollow area, is space and a negative force and the outer the enegry is constantly growing for living things passing... The centre most point I think is the birth place for Stars and planets etc... And the formation of them made through a collective friction of energy... The outer rings allways growing and expanding, as too the centre hollow area being pushed away from the middle cross over. My idea is just as floored as the Big Bang Theory, if not more so... Myine is an Idea, a pipe dream nothing more... but it's my OWN.

Deliciously_Saucy - Sorry, what is your stance on the Big Bang then ?

To me you seem to back it, and even claimed in previous posts as it being just as UNREAL as Gravity, and you kind of said Gavity is real yet we can't prove it... Your posts do confuse me, as mine do you... LOL
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 12:31:12 AM by landofshadows »
 


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Deliciously_Saucy - Sorry, what is your stance on the Big Bang then ?
I think it's the most likely current possibility on how the universe was created. I don't think it's a full answer, but at least part of it.

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To me you seem to back it, and even claimed in previous posts as it being just as UNREAL as Gravity, and you kind of said Gavity is real yet we can't prove it...
I go on the idea that nothing can be proved because some how it can be disproved. I don't like setting ideas in cement, not even gravity.

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Your posts do confuse me, as mine do you... LOL
Going by your posts I can see we are two different types of thinkers, you think out side of the box, while I am more mainstream.

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Not as such... I think in death your energy is released and used for some thing greater.  Heck it could be that we are food for another dimensional creature far supperior to us... But al least that gives us a purpose.
You see, I don't need a "purpose" in life to continue with it, that's why I've stopped clinging to the teat of religion. But it's post like these that shows me how different we are... Not in a bad way, as it certainly came up with some fine debate.

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You say it's the most plausable Theory of the start of the universe as we know it... But then for me to say I think its much more than that, and I doubt we will fully understand it until we work out some of the small complexites before we unravel the marvel of the universe is wrong ?...
I'm afraid I was going by this quote;
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May be we aren't supposed to know what started stuff off.
That gave me an idea that you where saying: We just aren't meant to know the complexities of life. Something I would expect to here from a religious nut... I don't think it's wrong for you to have these ideas, many different and odd ideas are necessary for us to progress. But making up your own theories to me shows nothing more then a base understanding and an active imagination, NOT that you have a higher understanding of life.

No matter how we disagree, I still enjoy our debates...



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I think it is a very possible theory. It makes sence in most levels. and I know this probably said to most of the christians that posted here but if God did create the universe it's possible that the big bang is the way he did it. Fuck, if I was God I'd creae the universe with a big explosion...What's more badass then that?

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I think it's the most likely current possibility on how the universe was created. I don't think it's a full answer, but at least part of it.

I agree to a fasion... Some thing had to happen to trigger the start of the Universe, I just think the Big Bang is a too simple a Theory, at current stage its at best half baked... It needs more research doing to it.

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I go on the idea that nothing can be proved because some how it can be disproved. I don't like setting ideas in cement, not even gravity.

Same here... Gravity, one day could have a whole new equation should we reach an area of Negative space... I suppose you have a point... I mean in other dimensuions do they have Gravity, or a Varient of ?... But by modern standard Gravity is still a mathmatical equation that stands it's like you questioning the Add Symbol or the chemical equation for water... I do get your point and I am very simular, I try to question almost every thing, makes thing smore interesting.

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Going by your posts I can see we are two different types of thinkers, you think out side of the box, while I am more mainstream.

Yep your right with me thinking outside of the Box... I am a bit of a dreamer to be fair.

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You see, I don't need a "purpose" in life to continue with it, that's why I've stopped clinging to the teat of religion. But it's post like these that shows me how different we are... Not in a bad way, as it certainly came up with some fine debate.

I don't follow any faith... I don't think there is a God... I just think things are too perfect for there not to be a purpose for us being here.

Reasons:-

1. Some bugs only live long enough to reproduce.
2. Most creatures serve another creatures needs.
3. Creatures that don't support another creature usually help the Earth and plants.

But the biggest factor:-

There are 3 VERY big stage in our Life.

1. Being Born
2. Having Offspring
3. Dieing

They are the 3 functions that Nature assigns to each and every one of the creatures on this planet... So if the only thing we do thats of any importantance is Reproducing...

So if we look at that, why is it so important that we keep spawning...?

I have looked at different theories based around life and energy... Enstein's theory that Energy never stops exsisting but just changes form is a nice idea... But then using the bassis of energy binding the universe together is as you say a little far fetched and may be me being over imaginative.

I am stumped... I don't know the meaning of life... but for some reason in the pit of my Stomach I know we don't just blink into nothingness, there has to be more to us than that... And any other creature on Earth, or in the universe.
 


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I don't follow any faith... I don't think there is a God... I just think things are too perfect for there not to be a purpose for us being here.

Reasons:-

1. Some bugs only live long enough to reproduce.
2. Most creatures serve another creatures needs.
3. Creatures that don't support another creature usually help the Earth and plants.

All I see there is natural selection... Everything is as it should be because it's the best possible form, all though I'll be it, perhaps yesterdays best form...

Nature has a way of evening things out, all most with god-like precision, but that's because it's necessary for life to survive. Without a balanced scale, we would not be here. Therefore it's the only possible format, not the perfect one.

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But the biggest factor:-

There are 3 VERY big stage in our Life.

1. Being Born
2. Having Offspring
3. Dieing

They are the 3 functions that Nature assigns to each and every one of the creatures on this planet... So if the only thing we do thats of any importantance is Reproducing...

So if we look at that, why is it so important that we keep spawning...?
I'm afraid I don't get your point... Living organisms have a built in drive, and that drive is to become immortal, one way or another... We pass on our genetics so that we ourselves essentially don't die. How do you see the world as being too perfect..? You don't give life enough credit...

I think we've gone off topic.. Lol...

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I'm afraid I don't get your point... Living organisms have a built in drive, and that drive is to become immortal, one way or another... We pass on our genetics so that we ourselves essentially don't die. How do you see the world as being too perfect..? You don't give life enough credit...

Actually it's me saying that life and energy flow could be what supports a whole universe, I am giving it MAJOR credit... I am saying life creates life and life in it's self it what binds everything togeter...LOL

What your saying about your-self living within your off spring is only on a genetic level... It's not your own spirt or soul... your child is not you...

I am hoping what ever you learn in life your take with you... and once joined with the collective energy stream may be your experinces shared... It's a nice thaught... Not founded... But I would preffer that to Heaven and having Angels flying around me quoting the Bible at me... LOL

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I think we've gone off topic.. Lol...

OK... On Topic... The Big Bang Theory in my opinion will remain a Theory for many centries to come.
 


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I've got nothing more to say on this matter until there are some more perspectives here, if you want to move over to the life thread however, I would be glad to meet you there... I may not agree with your theories, but they're interesting enough :).

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*cleans the topic*

Ok, either stay on topic and contribute something useful or just don't post. I'm not in the mood to check it every day and check if it was spammed AGAIN. >:(

I haven't read the most recent posts here (except the small ones), but from the size of the posts I can see who IS on topic and who's just spamming.
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About the death comment on how life is energy, I totally agree with you. I believe there is no heaven or hell. When we die, our souls (energy) leave our earthly bodies and enter another level of reality. From there our souls take over another body, a pig, spider, human, or any living thing. I believe life is like energy, it never is created nor destroyed, it just changes form.

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You sound Agnostic... That's something I could never get. Do you have something to base these theories on? Anything at all? Or are you just wildly guessing here? If you believe in reincarnation here, as in your faith is Buddhism, I can respect that, but faith is just that, something un-distributable therefore not in the topic of debate! Are you a person of Science or Religion?

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You sound Agnostic... That's something I could never get. Do you have something to base these theories on? Anything at all? Or are you just wildly guessing here? If you believe in reincarnation here, as in your faith is Buddhism, I can respect that, but faith is just that, something un-distributable therefore not in the topic of debate! Are you a person of Science or Religion?


Actually, I think its possible to be a little of both. I'm as devout of a Pagan as I can be. But I appreciate what answers science has given us.

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I am Hindu. All that I have said is from Hinduism. Hinduism can be broken down to the scientific level. What is great about hinduism is that science and spirtually are connected and relate to eachother.

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At my school that I go to, the school is against teaching everything that has to do with religion. They won't even let us wear costumes on Halloween. But they are allowed to teach the Big Bang theory in Science?

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At my school that I go to, the school is against teaching everything that has to do with religion. They won't even let us wear costumes on Halloween. But they are allowed to teach the Big Bang theory in Science?
Science is based on evidence and research, religion is not. While the findings of science may be incorrect they're more likely to be correct then the idea of a personal god.

There are many religions in the world, how would the schools pick one to teach without being personally biased anyway?
Also, let's put it this way, I have RARELY seen science directly attack religion, but Christians, Muslims and some others personally and directly attack science by manipulating what they say and without proper understandence on the matter.

Oh and oneray, I agree that Hinduism is a fine religion.

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At my school that I go to, the school is against teaching everything that has to do with religion. They won't even let us wear costumes on Halloween. But they are allowed to teach the Big Bang theory in Science?
Science is based on evidence and research, religion is not. While the findings of science may be incorrect they're more likely to be correct then the idea of a personal god.

There are many religions in the world, how would the schools pick one to teach without being personally biased anyway?
Also, let's put it this way, I have RARELY seen science directly attack religion, but Christians, Muslims and some others personally and directly attack science by manipulating what they say and without proper understandence on the matter.

Oh and oneray, I agree that Hinduism is a fine religion.
I really thought this is a talk about the big bang theory and all i konw is the basic part that it was the creation of the infinate growing universe. that was it shoud b kept but I can't wonder how is the big bang theory going ever help any one in life.

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THXS KELFA! I just wanted to say there is obivously a primary source where all the energy started. That energy can be refered to as god in religion and in science, energy.

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THXS KELFA! I just wanted to say there is obivously a primary source where all the energy started. That energy can be refered to as god in religion and in science, energy.
Obvious..? Please tell me how so...

If your such a scientific mind, then what created god? How did it start? And please explain to me why you would believe in the "HE WAS ALWAYS THERE!" ( if you do, that is ).

All matters need explanation, and I think that an un-personal god could be one of them, but it certainly wouldn't be a final answer as there will always be another question if your not blinded by faith.

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I don't think any one is going to have anything we haven't already brought to the table racked staked and crumbled already on this debate...

There are things much smaller than this in the world that we don't even have answers for... Like why can't chickens fly... I mean evolution gave em feather and wings for a reason, or did God do it to them to pee them off ?

God Vs Big Bang... I don't think either started every thing, I think the Big bang may have been the catalysist and yes it may have happened, but for people to claim it happened at the centre and happens every so often and sucks back in upon it's self and so fourth is pure speculation... We hardly know anything about the cosmos or what started life... an using God or the Big Bang as a simple answer to me is being abcent minded.

I HATE GOD... and people using him as the answer to things for example:-

God first created the Earth and the Stars
Then he created light...

So in that case he made the Earth and the Stars in the FRICKEN dark ?

Then he made man in his Image...

So are we invisable also ?... NO WE FRICKEN AINT
And why would God Need legs if he lives in the Cosmos and in every thing around us...?

He then made a woman from the Rib of a Man...

So why didn't he just make a Woman from the same FRICKEN stuff he made the man from, its only one cromosone different ?

Look I can do this all day... Send me a page from the bible... any page and I will discredit it.
 


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We hardly know anything about the cosmos or what started life... an using God or the Big Bang as a simple answer to me is being abcent minded.

:)

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Nothing created god. You read all the religious text and they will say god was always there. Then you apply this to science, energy can not be created nor destroyed. This means that energy was always there. If something is born, created, then one day it will die, or be destroyed. i just wanted to say that religion and science go hand in hand. They are basically same thing but religion focus on the sciences to life a proper life, be good, eat right, and so on, in others religion is spirituality. Science is why our world is the way it is, not what is right or wrong. Also, the guy who said he hated god, OKAY! You can believe in god or believe in flying chickens, as long as your intentions are good and your are a good citizen, your faith doesn't not matter. You can be Christian, Hindu, and Muslim, or hate good and do good things. When you go to jail, are they going to ask your faith? Faith is more like a guide. May mistake faith as a rule book but remember we are all different and apply things different. As long as we are good, nothing else matters.

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Nothing created god. You read all the religious text and they will say god was always there. Then you apply this to science, energy can not be created nor destroyed. This means that energy was always there. If something is born, created, then one day it will die, or be destroyed. i just wanted to say that religion and science go hand in hand. They are basically same thing but religion focus on the sciences to life a proper life, be good, eat right, and so on, in others religion is spirituality. Science is why our world is the way it is, not what is right or wrong. Also, the guy who said he hated god, OKAY! You can believe in god or believe in flying chickens, as long as your intentions are good and your are a good citizen, your faith doesn't not matter. You can be Christian, Hindu, and Muslim, or hate good and do good things. When you go to jail, are they going to ask your faith? Faith is more like a guide. May mistake faith as a rule book but remember we are all different and apply things different. As long as we are good, nothing else matters.

Thank you.

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Nothing created god. You read all the religious text and they will say god was always there. Then you apply this to science, energy can not be created nor destroyed. This means that energy was always there. If something is born, created, then one day it will die, or be destroyed. i just wanted to say that religion and science go hand in hand. They are basically same thing but religion focus on the sciences to life a proper life, be good, eat right, and so on, in others religion is spirituality. Science is why our world is the way it is, not what is right or wrong. Also, the guy who said he hated god, OKAY! You can believe in god or believe in flying chickens, as long as your intentions are good and your are a good citizen, your faith doesn't not matter. You can be Christian, Hindu, and Muslim, or hate good and do good things. When you go to jail, are they going to ask your faith? Faith is more like a guide. May mistake faith as a rule book but remember we are all different and apply things different. As long as we are good, nothing else matters.

I have no idea why you have a negative rep. O_o This was one of the best posts I've ever seen.
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Yes! Now that I can agree with.

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Nothing created god. You read all the religious text and they will say god was always there. Then you apply this to science, energy can not be created nor destroyed. This means that energy was always there. If something is born, created, then one day it will die, or be destroyed. i just wanted to say that religion and science go hand in hand. They are basically same thing but religion focus on the sciences to life a proper life, be good, eat right, and so on, in others religion is spirituality. Science is why our world is the way it is, not what is right or wrong. Also, the guy who said he hated god, OKAY! You can believe in god or believe in flying chickens, as long as your intentions are good and your are a good citizen, your faith doesn't not matter. You can be Christian, Hindu, and Muslim, or hate good and do good things. When you go to jail, are they going to ask your faith? Faith is more like a guide. May mistake faith as a rule book but remember we are all different and apply things different. As long as we are good, nothing else matters.

Well said.

I actually feel that he kind of wrapped up the thread. Does any one else think so?

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Nothing created god. You read all the religious text and they will say god was always there. Then you apply this to science, energy can not be created nor destroyed. This means that energy was always there. If something is born, created, then one day it will die, or be destroyed. i just wanted to say that religion and science go hand in hand. They are basically same thing but religion focus on the sciences to life a proper life, be good, eat right, and so on, in others religion is spirituality. Science is why our world is the way it is, not what is right or wrong. Also, the guy who said he hated god, OKAY! You can believe in god or believe in flying chickens, as long as your intentions are good and your are a good citizen, your faith doesn't not matter. You can be Christian, Hindu, and Muslim, or hate good and do good things. When you go to jail, are they going to ask your faith? Faith is more like a guide. May mistake faith as a rule book but remember we are all different and apply things different. As long as we are good, nothing else matters.

What... the Heck... Are you guys reading the same thing I just did... It's a pile of shite.

We talking about the Big Bang and he is talking about the simularity's between science and religion.

He also talks about us being GOOD... What is Good ?

It's some thing that's goverend by common laws passed by heads of state and court room judges... Tribes in the amozon Eat people, are they Bad, Nope... it's their way of life.  If you can do it then how is it wrong not to.

And science doesn't teach us to be good to one and another... And early versions of religous scripture would see you burnt at the stake for trying to contact a loved one through a spirtualist.

The Big Bang in most research found happend, but was it what started the universe...?  How did the Big Bang happen, and what was there before the Big Bang...?

Thats interesting not stuff and nonses about being a good citerzen.
 


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Good and bad always have distinct difference. People eating people is a cultural trait and that is what they pratice. They do not do it for a bad reason. Many religions have different methods as well, some worship idols while others don't. To a anti-idol worshiper, worshiping an idol is a sin when in true fact, it doesn't matter how worship (as long as it is good and doesn't not harm anyone). Now for you comment on the big bang and relation to our good citizen feud. What is the big bang? The big bang is what started life and is why we are here. Understanding the big bang also help us understand why the way we are. And now for your burning people alive statement. All religions are some what corrupt. Why must only women where the hijab and not men. Women too can desire men based on physical appearance. Some Hindus in India burn their wifes when their husbands die. But it states in Hinduism that the mother is most important person in ones life and women possess 7 godly attributes while men posses 3. There are many misconception that is because we feel that it is the right way. Holy idols in Hinduism in not a must and the mythology is not actually true. But the people of India believe that because they are simple farmers and do not understand the complexity of their religion so they make up things.

I was actually wondering why my rep was down. How do I get it back up?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 02:10:56 AM by oneray »

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Nothing created god. You read all the religious text and they will say god was always there. Then you apply this to science, energy can not be created nor destroyed. This means that energy was always there. If something is born, created, then one day it will die, or be destroyed. i just wanted to say that religion and science go hand in hand. They are basically same thing but religion focus on the sciences to life a proper life, be good, eat right, and so on, in others religion is spirituality. Science is why our world is the way it is, not what is right or wrong. Also, the guy who said he hated god, OKAY! You can believe in god or believe in flying chickens, as long as your intentions are good and your are a good citizen, your faith doesn't not matter. You can be Christian, Hindu, and Muslim, or hate good and do good things. When you go to jail, are they going to ask your faith? Faith is more like a guide. May mistake faith as a rule book but remember we are all different and apply things different. As long as we are good, nothing else matters.
LoS is right, I guess that's why we don't normaly see you agreers in this section... :P

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Good and bad always have distinct difference.
Lol, there is no difference. It's a point of view. Add up all of the different cultural ideas of good and evil from the world together, and you will have it clashes from each side. Morality is just a point of view...

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To a anti-idol worshiper, worshiping an idol is a sin when in true fact, it doesn't matter how worship (as long as it is good and doesn't not harm anyone).
Yeh, a lot of religions would disagree with that... How do you define good? You personally?

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Understanding the big bang also help us understand why the way we are. And now for your burning people alive statement. All religions are some what corrupt.
I say most religions are very corrupt. Even with your statment, it would have to be telling you something? If they're deceitful then who do you trust?

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Why must only women where the hijab and not men. Women too can desire men based on physical appearance. Some Hindus in India burn their wifes when their husbands die. But it states in Hinduism that the mother is most important person in ones life and women possess 7 godly attributes while men posses 3. There are many misconception that is because we feel that it is the right way.
That's what faith is, doing crazy things for a god you've never met. It sounds like you have taken a separate journey to god, which in a way, I can respect. Tell me if I'm wrong.

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Holy idols in Hinduism in not a must and the mythology is not actually true. But the people of India believe that because they are simple farmers and do not understand the complexity of their religion so they make up things.
Wow, you've just offended a lot of people there, especially with that "they're all farmers" part. I see no difference in flawed mythology of Hinduism or Christianity. They all have flaws, big flaws, in fact I say that the bible has stolen a lot of its religion from the Pagens.

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I was actually wondering why my rep was down. How do I get it back up?
If it's going down it's because other people don't like what you have to say. I personally don't put rep down because you have a different opinion to mine, I will put it down if you say something complete asinine though...

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@LoS: Good and Evil are relative, not absolute. God is the only absolute Good. (by definition, don't take it "literally" ::))

Now, you can define Good as anything that doesn't disrupt the freedom of others. And this is also what freedom about: Being free without disrupting the freedom of others.

Since God is the absolute Good, any of his deeds or actions or anything by God is Good. That's why it is said he's infallible.

@Saucy: The human is the one who corrupted religions. =/ And lol, I don't do crazy things for my God. xD

Religion will always be flawed as humans are flawed. The only thing we can do is to try to do the right thing which is not always easy. The Church seems to have forgotten that. =/
And it's true that various religions took parts of other religions. For example Buddhaism took this idea from Christianity:
"You can't be enlightened (or saved) if you're bound to material things."
The first commandment says "Don't have any other God's beside me." That generally means, there should be no thing to love and respect more than God itself (yes Saucy, it, lol). Again it's a metaphoric commandment. For example you can't have both: money and God. If are not ready to share it like God tells you, obviously you love it more than God. And that's the sin. =/ It's a constant sin of the human race. =/ Of course, but that's just the point of a Christian view.

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I was actually wondering why my rep was down. How do I get it back up?
If it's going down it's because other people don't like what you have to say. I personally don't put rep down because you have a different opinion to mine, I will put it down if you say something complete asinine though...

Me, too. I don't rep-- for not having the same opinion as me. I only rep-- if you're being a twat. I actually rep++ for having a different opinion as me, stating it out good and accepting my opinion as it is as well. :)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 12:56:55 PM by Blizzard »
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i would define good according to my Super Ego (the moral decision making process in our mind). Good is good and bad is bad. Killing a human and eating him is wrong even if it is cultural. What do you gain from eating a human? Pride, victory, self confidence? No offense, but i think this is the same way for gay people. I think that laws should go against them because gay people are focused on sexual desires. They are gay because they like men, that is the only difference. They value sexual desires some much that they see themselves as a people. you like men because you want engage in intercourse with them, not to be friends or have a good time. If you did, you can a friend who is a girl. As you can see here, to a gay person it is okay to be gay, but the another it is not. We have to understand and see the real purpose of ones actions and determine if it is good or not. Many people would terrorist are freedom fighters, but in reality, terrorists kill more civilians then armies. If they truly want to be freedom fighters, they should attack the enemy only or use the power of speech. You can't be a freedom fighter if you kill your own people. Religion is corrupt but some parts aren't. Being good, respecting elders and parents, does that seem corrupt to you? The key points of religion are not about how the world was created or who is better, it is how to be good. What is corrupt is who is better, how deserves to live or die. These concepts contradict religion totally. If Islam is about peace, then why does it say that all non-believers should be converted or killed. Those who do not believe in Allah are doomed to hell. Everyone is different and everybody will not bow down the same way. If you enter a room with 100 people and tell them to look right (with a mike to project you voice when everybody is listening), 30% will turn right, 30% will ask why, 10% will look left, 10% will not listen, and 10% will ask what was the question. 

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i would define good according to my Super Ego (the moral decision making process in our mind). Good is good and bad is bad. Killing a human and eating him is wrong even if it is cultural. What do you gain from eating a human? Pride, victory, self confidence?
Grow out of the faerie tail, nothing is black and white. Good and evil hardly exist and just tell me why it's your  perception of good and evil that are correct..? Actually, let me answer that, it's because you grew up were you did, in the place you did and with your particular guardians. Point's of morality aren't pre-programed, they're made.

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No offense, but i think this is the same way for gay people. I think that laws should go against them because gay people are focused on sexual desires.
Wow. Pull out the white cross... Homosexuals are just as capable for love as you are. Just focused on sexual desires..? Have you ever been gay? No? Then your going on hear-say, and a twisted idea.

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They are gay because they like men
Isn't that being sexist? Women can be gay too by the way.

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that is the only difference. They value sexual desires some much that they see themselves as a people. you like men because you want engage in intercourse with them, not to be friends or have a good time. If you did, you can a friend who is a girl. As you can see here, to a gay person it is okay to be gay, but the another it is not. We have to understand and see the real purpose of ones actions and determine if it is good or not.
Who the fuck made you the judge and jury..? You sound like the rest of the religious sheep, how the hell did you get this notion?

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If they truly want to be freedom fighters, they should attack the enemy only or use the power of speech. You can't be a freedom fighter if you kill your own people.
Sometimes the enemy is  their own people, and often in certain countries people are killed for speaking their mind. That's why there are freedom fighters. Also the last major terrorist attack was on their enemy, it was called 9/11.

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Religion is corrupt but some parts aren't. Being good, respecting elders and parents, does that seem corrupt to you?
Try reading into the whole thing rather then just stating the parts that where stapled to your brain.

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The key points of religion are not about how the world was created or who is better, it is how to be good. What is corrupt is who is better, how deserves to live or die. These concepts contradict religion totally.
No the key points are a bunch of fables and death threats. The "be a good fellow" parts are rare in between and contradicted.

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If Islam is about peace, then why does it say that all non-believers should be converted or killed. Those who do not believe in Allah are doomed to hell.
Uhhh, Christianity says the same thing. But then again, I don't really see a difference between the two.

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If you enter a room with 100 people and tell them to look right (with a mike to project you voice when everybody is listening), 30% will turn right, 30% will ask why, 10% will look left, 10% will not listen, and 10% will ask what was the question.
And I guess the missing 10% would have killed them selves because of your pointless rambling.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 07:37:08 PM by Deliciously_Saucy »

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Are you saying that 9/11 is good? It is bad no matter what you say. US blowing up Iraq, bad too. Good and bad, black and white, positive and negative. They don't look alike, they don't sound alike, they aren't alike. People thought 9/11 was a good thing, right. Because of 9/11 Iraqi is in the gutter. Because of 9/11 so many lives are gone. Can you say that the line between good and bad is blurred? Now about the gay comment. What is the definition of gay or lesbian (i am going to us gay because it is easier to write)? one who has prefers the same sex. Why do they prefer the same sex? Is the reason a positive or negative one. Are the values involved efficient enough to justify the choice. NO. you can never tell if something is good or bad if you look at it from one angle or another. you have go into every angle and see the true motives for their actions. Why did 9/11 happen? What were their intentions? Was there any other way? Was is neccesary to start a chain reaction which smashed Iraqi?

I thought Christian were suppose to respect all religious and accept them. Can you tell me exactly what it says?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 08:32:01 PM by oneray »

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"General 9/11 why did they do it"
What happened to the post were you conceded defeat..? People read things pretty fast around here...

1) Yes it was more then 'just' to them. I fully understand their point of view.

2) It was caused as a retaliation to an American attack on their people.

3) It has nothing to do with the lines of morality being "blurred". Do some research, people all over the world do have different ideas then you. Many cultures even sacrificed family members in joyous ceremonies. I assure they didn't think down inside "damn, we're fucking evil, but hey, how about we pretend  we're going good!"

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NO. you can never tell if something is good or bad if you look at it from one angle or another. you have go into every angle and see the true motives for their actions.
You just contradicted yourself.

5) There are plenty of ways to do things, but not many when you live in a dirt poor, dictated and deaf country. "Please America, don't bomb us anymore! K?"

6) And finally good and evil are identical in my  perception. As with many of people.


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I thought Christian were suppose to respect all religious and accept them.
No, that's Buddhism.

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Can you tell me exactly what it says?
Exactly? It says to kill all other faiths and those who don't follow Yahweh. Yeh, that's pretty much exact.

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seems I can't change your perception of good or bad.  :-\As there are those who:
6) And finally good and evil are identical in my perception. As with many of people.
there are those who can or do see the difference of good and evil. But i would like to ask you: Is good and bad, the same as right and wrong?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 09:25:58 PM by oneray »

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seems I can't change your perception of good or bad.
You can't get your own story straight, why would you influence me in the slightest? Conquer yourself and your own ideas before trying to change others.

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there are those who can or do see the difference of good and evil.
Yes, the ignorant and those who believe they are pre-existing.

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But i would like to ask you: Is good and bad, the same as right and wrong?
In the sense that they don't exist outside of cultural perseption? Absolutely. All actions are equal to them selves.

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you are ignorant. you haven't once agreed to what i said. I atleast did and respect you but all you do is critize me in everyway! That is why we are damned as you say. People like you! You think your preception is number one the only way. Accept that there always an infinite number paths to one goal.

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you are ignorant. you haven't once agreed to what i said. I atleast did and respect you but all you do is critize me in everyway! That is why we are damned as you say. People like you!
I criticize and don't agree with you because I think you are wrong. This was a poor reply.

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You think your preception is number one the only way. Accept that there always an infinite number paths to one goal.
Paths and ideas are different things. I accept the idea of multiple choices to a goal, I just think you happen to be wrong and your points to be weak if not confused.

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Yes, the ignorant and those who believe they are pre-existing.

You happen to fit into one of these categories don't you? You've stated that good and evil/ right and wrong are set in cement and fully identifiable. I wasn't wrong there.

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You can't get your own story straight, why would you influence me in the slightest?
You appear to change your opinion every second post. I'm not attacking you, I'm simply stating what I see.

This is called debate, as arle said, we all turn into hard-asses here. I respect many peoples different ideas, even those that are different to mine, take LoS for instance... Just because I disagree and debate your thoughts doesn't mean I'm attacking you. Oh, just to let you know, I haven't put your rep down once. 




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I thought Christian were suppose to respect all religious and accept them. Can you tell me exactly what it says?

Christians say, if you were once Christian and are not anymore, then you are doomed. It doesn't accept others, it just says, somebody who has never "heard Jesus' word" (aka was never a Christian) isn't neccesary doomed if (s)he does the right thing all his life (you know what I mean (>.<) ).

Locking this now because it is turning into a POINTLESS religious debate AGAIN and because I am too lazy to split the topic.
If you want to talk about "What's Good and what's Evil", make another topic or wait until somebody splittes this here.

@Saucy: Some Christians are so annoying trying to convert people. You're really being as annoying as them with trying to convert people the other way. =/ Always saying "little religious puppet", "religious sheep" and stuff like this. =/ I thought you were cooler than that.

GOOD AND EVIL WERE, ARE AND ALWAYS WILL BE POINTS OF VIEW. END OF DEBATE.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2007, 04:10:25 PM by Blizzard »
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