Global guild rules and Timeframe discussion

There's a lot of intense discussion going on about the best process for the guilds to take. Many of you are putting a lot of thought into this and that is much appreciated.

However, it's obvious no one is going to come up with something that everyone can agree on, at least not any time soon. So I'm going to have to take the likely unpopular approach and pull rank on all of you. I'm going to go with NAMKCOR's idea:

I'd say that every so often we should have some sort of "press release" in the guilds' main threads for the community to view, but that it shouldn't be required to be a specific type of release.  There should be points taken off the final judging for missing press releases.  Of course it'd have to be something new and show progress, and it'd have to be somewhat substantial, but it doesn't have to be a specific type of update. 

That way we discourage procrastination and allow guilds to set their own goals as they see fit.  It also allows guilds to keep big guns secret if they want.

The reason being is that this allows for specific intervals where a condition must be met. Every so often the guild must make a "press release" or otherwise suffer a penalty. This will help to keep everyone motivated without being too constricting and complex. In addition it lets the community at large see what the guild has planned, without the guilds giving too much information away early and helps to build hype for their project. This also allows guilds to work on their project in a manner most fitting for them.

I feel this option is a good middle-of-the-road approach from what everyone else was suggesting and feel that most of you will accept this as the best approach, as it still allows a lot of freedom while keeping things organized and in line.

Huge thanks go out to modern algebra, grafikal, Zeriab, Falcon and Irock for your discussions on this matter. I would also like to extend an invitation officially for modern algebra to help oversee all this and make sure things are running smoothly.

Feel free to discuss this here, especially if you have questions. We still need specifics set for this method, especially concerning a timeline (we don't even have a timeframe set yet for how long the guilds will have to work).

I think 5 months (it'll be spring by then ._.) is good. Press releases would take place monthly, and the final month will be the full game,

Or, 5 months is a long time. Maybe 3 or 4. ._.

Considering this probably won't officially start until January, you're putting this lasting through May. That's a long time and I think interest would start to dwindle well before then.

I would suggest nothing longer than 3 months, but if most of you want more than that, then so be it

EDIT: ninja'd

Three months is ace.

That sounds fine to me. The guild leaders are responsible and I'm sure they will be able to strike a balance that works for their respective guilds.

As for the overseeing thing, I'd prefer not to if you are OK with doing it by yourself. If you ever need or want my help, then I would be happy to do what I can, but I think I will be pretty swamped by life this coming term and would prefer to keep my obligations to a minimum. Thanks for the invitation though, and if you ever need to take a break or if you would prefer not to do it by yourself then I will be happy to do what I can.

And yeah, no more than three months would be my suggestion as well. I think two months would probably be a better goal really. Maybe allow for an extension to three if necessary, but ideally I think it could be done in two. But I'm happy with anything.

That sounds fine to me. The guild leaders are responsible and I'm sure they will be able to strike a balance that works for their respective guilds.

As for the overseeing thing, I'd prefer not to if you are OK with doing it by yourself. If you ever need or want my help, then I would be happy to do what I can, but I think I will be pretty swamped by life this coming term and would prefer to keep my obligations to a minimum. Thanks for the invitation though, and if you ever need to take a break or if you would prefer not to do it by yourself then I will be happy to do what I can.

Sure, I think I can handle it well enough. Thanks a lot for offering to begin with and thanks for offering to help if I need it. I hope you continue to offer your input too.

I like this.

Perhaps every 3 weeks, a release? All that within 3 months. So that's a total of 4 releases. The 4th release could either be the Final Release of the game, or final touches and then there would be a 1 week period after the 3 months to maybe organize a sexy topic for release and add literally final minute touches.

I like Grafikal's idea.

Let's to that,

Which part? "The 4th release as FINAL" -- or "the 4th release as final updates and then a 1 week extension for the sexy topic + final touchups"?

The part where it's 3 months and the part that gets this over with faster by agreeing with you.

ok

I like this.

Perhaps every 3 weeks, a release? All that within 3 months. So that's a total of 4 releases. The 4th release could either be the Final Release of the game, or final touches and then there would be a 1 week period after the 3 months to maybe organize a sexy topic for release and add literally final minute touches.

Are there no objections to this? There have been a lot of views on this topic but not many posts.

I think with that kind of goal, it might be better to stagger them a little and make them different, not just demo, longer demo, longest demo, final game. I think a better approach is something like (and assuming prep and organizational time not included in the competition time) at two weeks - teaser w/ text and screens and chars or something - so basically like a decent project topic; at six weeks - playable demo; twelve weeks - final product. I think that would be more interesting from a public perspective - one demo is much like another and it's boring to play through the parts of the previous demo anyway. I also think that preparing things for public display requires time to finesse superficial details and to bug test demos and stuff that takes time away from the project as a whole, and while that stuff needs to be done at some point anyway, the less frequently the better and it might be stuff better reserved for the latter end of the competition, so it seems to me more sensible to have a more staggered approach with less public releases. But that probably makes Irock's head explode with fury, so whatever works.

Press release != demo

HURR DURR

Press release != demo

HURR DURR

Not necessarily. In NAMKCOR's post even, he has press release in quotes, implying it's not necessarily a press release. It could be a demo. It could be a press release. It could just be a post with screenshots. Nothing has really been discussed yet as far as what it could or should be.

Aside from which, both you and grafikal mentioned Zeriab's plan in fairly recent posts, and that involved demos. Please excuse my complete and utter stupidity if I have misunderstood you in any way, shape or form, sir.

Press release != demo

HURR DURR

Not necessarily. In NAMKCOR's post even, he has press release in quotes, implying it's not necessarily a press release. It could be a demo. It could be a press release. It could just be a post with screenshots. Nothing has really been discussed yet as far as what it could or should be.

NAMKCOR specifically said a few times in IRC that he didn't like the idea of releasing demos of the games. I'm sure he put it in quotes because it's technically not a press release if you're not actually releasing it to the press, and "press release" was the best title he could come up with.

Press release != demo

HURR DURR

Not necessarily. In NAMKCOR's post even, he has press release in quotes, implying it's not necessarily a press release. It could be a demo. It could be a press release. It could just be a post with screenshots. Nothing has really been discussed yet as far as what it could or should be.

NAMKCOR specifically said a few times in IRC that he didn't like the idea of releasing demos of the games. I'm sure he put it in quotes because it's technically not a press release if you're not actually releasing it to the press, and "press release" was the best title he could come up with.

I didn't see him say that, so excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me. You're such a fiddlenanny. >

Regardless, I think if the guild decides to release a demo in place of the press release, then that would be acceptable. Maybe NAMKCOR's guild won't, but the other could.

I like modern algebra's staggering idea, sounds like it would work very smoothly.

Press release != demo

HURR DURR

Not necessarily. In NAMKCOR's post even, he has press release in quotes, implying it's not necessarily a press release. It could be a demo. It could be a press release. It could just be a post with screenshots. Nothing has really been discussed yet as far as what it could or should be.

NAMKCOR specifically said a few times in IRC that he didn't like the idea of releasing demos of the games. I'm sure he put it in quotes because it's technically not a press release if you're not actually releasing it to the press, and "press release" was the best title he could come up with.

I didn't see him say that, so excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me. You're such a fiddlenanny. >

Regardless, I think if the guild decides to release a demo in place of the press release, then that would be acceptable. Maybe NAMKCOR's guild won't, but the other could.

Yeah, it will be acceptable. It's their decision though, not Modern Algebra's.~

He was just using an example. Besides, the important thing right now is the timeframe, which was the main point of his post.

I know he was using an example, but I think it should be up to the guilds themselves what content to release. If they make it boring, that's their own fault.

Also, talk about a timeframe. I still like the 3 month total with 3 week press releases.

No Absolutely not What I say goes and if anybody tries to transgress my omniscient and omnipotent will I will smite them. HARD. My primary objective is to control the guilds with an iron fist and I have trained and devoted my entire life to attaining this elusive and unimportant goal. These are my true colours, finally revealed

No Absolutely not What I say goes and if anybody tries to transgress my omniscient and omnipotent will I will smite them. HARD. My primary objective is to control the guilds with an iron fist and I have trained and devoted my entire life to attaining this elusive and unimportant goal. These are my true colours, finally revealed

I don't agree with that. We should try to keep the guilds fun and open to as many possibilities as possible. It's not really fair to try to control everything, because it makes the competition not as fun. :[

You are about to get lampmoosed beyond your wildest dreams, mister.

BIGARADE!

you are so going to be smitten for trying to impede my vision. it does not behoove me to do so today, but you're living on borrowed time penisbreath.

Heil mein fuhrer, modern algebra.

MA vs. Irock, round one. FIGHT.

*waits for the first fatality*


Oh, and I like the idea of starting January 1st, going to maybe the end of March.

haha, this topic got funnier the further down i read.

Uhm. So about the time period. I like the 3 months and 4 releases. I mean, I don't care if it ends up being like 4 months and 4 releases or something. But I still like 3-4. Also, I don't think anyone said that each release would be a demo. Or at least I missed that part and just automatically assumed it'd be up to the guilds as to what they would release. I just thought it was a good idea to have a required release of some sort. Lol, actually, come to think of it, I don't think anything different was suggested since I mentioned the 3 months 4 releases. That's basically MA's staggering thing anyways. They're not all demos. Idk, I thought I mentioned multiple times that at the first release it would be up to the guilds as to what they release. I think I keep using the example: 1 Guild would release something like a story and character development at the first release, while the 2nd Guild would feel like releasing a title screen and a story.~ I don't really care what each guild releases as long as it's somewhat substantial. Not something like releasing main characters one release then releasing just their history the next release and stuff. I think releasing a demo would be up to each guild if they even want to, or maybe that'll just be the 3rd release that they have and the 4th release is the game. Something like that.

3 month isn't very much time if the users on average put say 4 hours of work per week.
I would personally say we start the 1st of January and then finish the 30th of June with a looming deadline never being more than a month away.

I think Nammy had a good point in not wanting to releasing a demo. Seeing the finish demo without having seen the intermediate demos does sound more fun for the people outside. They get their teasers :3
I can tell that if I become a guild leader then I will force the build per month over my team. (I'll try to even if I don't become one)

*hugs*
 

I said I didn't want to release demos because they are decryptable, more than because it'd give away information.

Decrypting them is a lot of effort, and I doubt whoever did it wouldn't learn a lot of importance. They'll basically be seeing whatever is in the demo or game from just playing it anyways, if it's something that absolutely must not fall into the wrong hands they can hold from implementing it until they have to (a script or something, maybe?). Yeah ._.;;

not really, there are programs that have been written, you feed them an archive and they decrypt it for you.

Event systems, scripts, database information, anything that is encrypted would be up for grabs, which defeats the purpose of encryption.

Dirty bastards.

not really, there are programs that have been written, you feed them an archive and they decrypt it for you.

Event systems, scripts, database information, anything that is encrypted would be up for grabs, which defeats the purpose of encryption.

The only way to be really safe then is to not release it, which sort of defeats the purpose Custom scripts and graphics are sure pretty heavy stuff to steal, but if you have none of that and simple event systems then I see no harm in it. We're a relatively small community too and any blatant theft would be noticed. We get people from .org and RRR anyway.

I don't care if it's decrypted after the thing is over, I just don't want them decrypting and stealing our work while it's still being made.

If we're making games and one team steals another team's work, and turns out an identical system, it causes so many issues, I want to avoid it.

Well yeah I guess, but the guilds are being pretty closely monitored. Anyone would notice if someone stole from the others game, lol. I think we're above that

Lol, I don't think our team would be stealing from you ._.
We have a pretty good grasp on things we're probably going to be using anyways, and I know for certain that Joy and I would be looking out for things like that. I know that I can easily recognize a lot of resources and if it was a certain person's or not. I'll be asking all of the members that have any resources to contribute to supply with credits and a source link if necessary. If we find something very suspicious, we'll ask Halo or MA about it and they'll check to see if you guys are using it or have been hiding it or something. Plus, I thought that's what Halo and MA were basically going to do anyways as overseeing the projects at the same time, unless I was mistaken.

I'm just paranoid enough grafikal :p

Besides, you can't say that your game won't be influenced by what you see, nor can we.  What if you see a concept in our demo for something, which causes you to change or modify or even try to reverse engineer to apply it in some way to your game.  Do you see where I'm trying to go with this?

Yeah, I mean, everyone is influenced by everything we see everyday, so I can't disagree that we would be influenced by your information just as much as you'd be influenced by ours. That's understandable.

I know what you mean about then taking information and trying to directly incorporate it into our game, however I think that'd be cheating. I know that I'm not a cheater unless it's an art history exam. So I know that I wouldn't be the one to do this. I'm very confident in Joy that she wouldn't either. If what you post would be made public and that if any of our members tried to suggest things directly related to your game then I know both Joy and I would reject it. Just as an example, if we saw that you were making your game and you used A LOT of green or maybe blue tints for a strong ambient feeling throughout your game (or if it were to help a major concept in your game), I would think that taking that same similar colors would be stealing, or even perhaps just tinting our game redish for the same reasons would be stealing. However, it'd be possible that instead you would influence us to think "Oh hey, using tints to set the ambience of a map or cutscene is an important idea that would work well with our already existing information". Like that kind of stuff is the influence I would expect to see from either of us. It ends up making either game better. I used that example since I pretty much do the whole tinting thing a lot anyways. So don't steal it lol. Idk, I'm pretty trusting in people and I place my full trust in both you an Irock that you wouldn't plagiarize work either.

If you're concerned about a story or something about a story were stolen, then I would imagine that even less likely. I mean, I've asked all the writers to come to the guilds with ideas already flowing. My reason is that when we get around to coming up with the story, it's where we would just meet and bounce these ideas around until we find a decent very basic naked plot. Then from there we work the details. I would also imagine that the story would be in the first release. So I would imagine that you guys could pretty much compare/contrast from what we said and what the final game ends up being. (Also, if you guys have like your own Story Forum or Topic like I imagine we would have, then MA or Halo could just check up on us on occassion.) I don't think a demo should really include any plot twists and stuff unless it's 1 plot twist right at the end of the demo to make people want more or something lol. I think if we were to steal that 1 plot twist, it'd be pretty obvious

All games are going to have overlapping concepts/systems, it's just the limitation of the system and the genres. There's varying levels of similarities between games, and while no one will cry foul over two games both having a system where you battle monsters and gain exp, who's to say at what level of similarity someone will become suspicious at?

I think because of that, even though I trust everyone involved completely, in order to remove any suspicion we should keep playable builds private until the final release. That way there's no way there can be any form of theft, and any similarities will be coincidence or just due to similarity of the programming and genres.

For gameplay updates, or if you just have to show off a system/scene for publicity, I think we should limit it to screenshots and videos.

There is absolutely no way we can prevent each other's games from impacting one another on some level, but you have it from me that, in the interest of the community having a varied experience between the two games, if I make any changes in response to your guild's work, it'll be to diversify our project from it.

There...I was long-winded.

I know you can't prevent influence, I just think demos would influence far more than just screenshots or information.

That's cool. I can agree to not release playable demos. It doesn't really bother me. I like what Joy had said about screenshots and videos. Instead of demos, we could post videos.

I'm not talking about actually releasing the build. Other than MA & Halo nobody outside my guild would see the builds.
As for efford in decrypting the encrypted games. It took me an hour or two to write a java file and compile it into an executable .jar files so you can put the .jar file in the game directory, press enter and wait a couple of minutes before it's been decrypted.
It's piece of cake really, if you know what you are doing, and it's not time consuming. It took 5 minutes to decrypt 80 MB.

*hugs*

I'm inclined to agree with Skanker; I think we as a community value originality so much that theft is out of the question. Then there's all the scrutiny- if theft of any idea or script or the like occurs, it would be found immediately. I also like what joy says, though- to prevent theft from occuring altogether, don't post a build. Screens and such would work fine, I think. Video even better.