Socialism

[Irock]

Owing money is in no way threatening to anyone.

owing money for too long means foreclosure on your house and loss of property which means

• homelessness
• no money for food
• no money for water
• no money for healthcare

not a threat huh? 
Those are your basic needs (shelter, food, water, health) and they're all gone because you owed too much money.

There is medical financial aid. Most people are able to make the payments on their medical bills. Everyone has the opportunity to be able to get health insurance. It's your job to pursue that opportunity.

Welcome to America, everyone is equal, but the rich are more equal than the poor.

Do you know how they became rich? They tried, and they worked.

Get some life experience, man. I've been broke, I've seen how shit works. I'm a parent trying to make a future for my kids. I don't know where you get these ideas from but I'd give it serious thought. I hope you understand things a little better when it's your time to fend for yourself, 'cause the way things are now, it's just you against the world. Do you have ANY idea how hard that is? I'm willing to bet no.

Life experience will only make your opinion less valid. Since you've been broke, you want things to be handed out to you. If you've been rich, you may not want health reform because it has a negative effect on you. It's supposed to be you against the world. I never said life is easy. Everyone still has the opportunities to become successful, but it's not easy. Tough luck. I'll never ask for a handout from anyone. You get what you earn.

[tSwitch]

There is medical financial aid. Most people are able to make the payments on their medical bills. Everyone has the opportunity to be able to get health insurance. It's your job to pursue that opportunity.

What do you think Socialized Healthcare provides?
The exact same opportunity, but more readily accessible.
I never knew Accessible Healthcare was such a detriment to society.

Don't like it, then go pay for expensive private healthcare.
It's the same exact thing, you pay a monthly payment for access to the healthcare benefits, all socialized healthcare provides is a much cheaper option for people who can't afford the high private healthcare rates.

Do you know how they became rich? They tried, and they worked.

So they deserve better opportunities?  
I don't think so.

Life experience will only make your opinion less valid. Since you've been broke, you want things to be handed out to you. If you've been rich, you may not want health reform because it has a negative effect on you. It's supposed to be you against the world. I never said life is easy. Everyone still has the opportunities to become successful, but it's not easy. Tough luck. I'll never ask for a handout from anyone. You get what you earn.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
I love Irock's ideal world, where nobody helps anyone but themselves.

People like you are why society is declining.

[firerain]

Get some life experience, man. I've been broke, I've seen how shit works. I'm a parent trying to make a future for my kids. I don't know where you get these ideas from but I'd give it serious thought. I hope you understand things a little better when it's your time to fend for yourself, 'cause the way things are now, it's just you against the world. Do you have ANY idea how hard that is? I'm willing to bet no.

Life experience will only make your opinion less valid.

what the fuck

[tSwitch]

[Irock]

Get some life experience, man. I've been broke, I've seen how shit works. I'm a parent trying to make a future for my kids. I don't know where you get these ideas from but I'd give it serious thought. I hope you understand things a little better when it's your time to fend for yourself, 'cause the way things are now, it's just you against the world. Do you have ANY idea how hard that is? I'm willing to bet no.

Life experience will only make your opinion less valid.

what the fuck

You forgot to debate against the part where I explained my point. That's sort of the point of a debate.

[Irock]

There is medical financial aid. Most people are able to make the payments on their medical bills. Everyone has the opportunity to be able to get health insurance. It's your job to pursue that opportunity.

Don't like it, then go pay for expensive private healthcare.
It's the same exact thing, you pay a monthly payment for access to the healthcare benefits, all socialized healthcare provides is a much cheaper option for people who can't afford the high private healthcare rates.

But everyone has to pay for it, even if they don't take advantage of it. Make those who use socialized health care pay for it. Not those who choose not to use it.

Do you know how they became rich? They tried, and they worked.

So they deserve better opportunities?  
I don't think so.

They worked for it.

Life experience will only make your opinion less valid. Since you've been broke, you want things to be handed out to you. If you've been rich, you may not want health reform because it has a negative effect on you. It's supposed to be you against the world. I never said life is easy. Everyone still has the opportunities to become successful, but it's not easy. Tough luck. I'll never ask for a handout from anyone. You get what you earn.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
I love Irock's ideal world, where nobody helps anyone but themselves.

People like you are why society is declining.

Don't take words out of my mouth. People are free to help others, and I'm all for that. However, I'm not for being forced to use your money to solve other people's issues.

Anyway, I'm done debating. It doesn't do anything other than get everyone fired up.

We could argue our opinions all day, but they'll never change.

Nobody's right, since it's all opinion. We'll never know who is right unless we could see what would have happenned if we would have gone with __ plan, then compare it to what really happened.

[EvilM00s]

Okay, let's put it to bed. Now I'm really dying to see what's going to happen in the next 10 years or so. Thank you all for such stimulating conversation!
















Even you, Irock.... I guess.....

[SirJackRex]

Irock you seem to think the Government shouldn't help us when we need it most, but to simply sit on the sidelines calling new rules whenever they see fit.

That's why we have Welfare, it's a very big thing. Sure it gets taken advantage of, what doesn't?

Public libraries, you're really at the loss here. You technically get all of the information for free, since you don't pay taxes yet. You're
technically wasting money by not using it. Not saying you should just because you can, but other people do use it. That's why it's here.
It's also great, they contain tons for shelf space than book retailers do and they also archive local news papers.

I don't think anyone mentioned public schools, but for those who can't afford an education for their children. Our country needs educated people, just like it needs healthy people. Those cannot pay for simple things like a healthy living and a good education shouldn't be any less entitled to it.

That being said, it is your responsibility for your own well-being. And Irock, I don't think a public plan will cover face-lifts and other miscellaneous shit like that.
For those who would take advantage, the government obviously has to make sure they don't. It has yet to truly happen, but hopefully it will someday.

[Malson]

that's what confuses me about irock's stance entirely. i dont understand how one would take advantage of free healthcare. it's not like people are going to intentionally hurt themselves all the time just so they can get free treatment out of it. that's why i feel like he's really just arguing welfare, not socialized health care.

[Irock]

Take advantage means to draw advantages from.

To take advantage of socialized heath care would be to use it to your advantage (getting free health care)

[tSwitch]

Take advantage means to draw advantages from.

To take advantage of socialized heath care would be to use it to your advantage (getting free health care)

it's not free, you pay for it in taxes.

[Irock]

Take advantage means to draw advantages from.

To take advantage of socialized heath care would be to use it to your advantage (getting free health care)

it's not free, you pay for it in taxes.

With Obama's health care plan, only people who make an income of $200,000 or more will pay for it. Something tells me the majority of those people are going to have private health care.

[tSwitch]

With Obama's health care plan, only people who make an income of $200,000 or more will pay for it. Something tells me the majority of those people are going to have private health care.

Can you link me to where it says that?

[Kokowam]

A 15 YEAR OLD COMES TO DEBATE ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT AND LIFE!

Get some life experience, man. I've been broke, I've seen how shit works. I'm a parent trying to make a future for my kids. I don't know where you get these ideas from but I'd give it serious thought. I hope you understand things a little better when it's your time to fend for yourself, 'cause the way things are now, it's just you against the world. Do you have ANY idea how hard that is? I'm willing to bet no.

Life experience will only make your opinion less valid.

what the fuck

I understand what Irock means here. Yes, life experience will give you a better understanding of the system and how it works in real life and not just paper, but it will make your opinion more biased. As he said, if you've been broke, you're going to tend to want help. If you've been rich, you'll want to keep the money to yourself (most of the time). This is just my interpretation of Irock's argument for that.

A fellow employee here asked me once, "If capitalism is so bad, what should we do instead?"  I don't know. I wish I did. Capitalism has its useful aspects, but so does socialism, or a monarchy. Hell, feudalism worked for a while. I wish there was a way to get the working parts of all those different systems, cram them in a box and say, "here's yer perfect government".

You don't need to use a pre-existing type of government. The Framers developed the system of "federalism" all on their own through compromises and whatnot (although refined throughout the years of US history). You could always make a new system (but that's a pretty bad idea, lol).

Also, I remember my... 7th grade algebra teacher telling me that NASA once built some rocket that costed a couple million or billion dollars (I forget, but I think it's the latter). I think he said the rocket failed. Hooray! However, he went on to say that, even though the rocket was paid for by taxpayers, it costed everyone in the US about a cup of coffee. So, as others said, the distribution of payment for a government service by the taxpayers (does that make sense) is a load off most people.

Another thing: There's always that saying about "1% of the world controls 99% of the wealth and 99% of the world contrls 1% of the wealth." I have no idea if that's a statistical truth, but, whether it's a hyperbole or not, I'm sure it's something along the lines of that. Also, the US would most likely be representative of that as well. If we take from 1% of the population and give to 99% of the population, doesn't the government fulfill the needs of the common good?

Overall, I'm pretty split between this issue, lol. Just your average, moderate American here. I hate the idea of paying for other people's problems, but I do hate the poor being neglected. Coupled with being moderate, I'm about middle-class, so I become fairly apathetic to the issue. I kinda avoid politics anyways because my parents take care of anything so it's not my turn to worry completely about life.

[Tezuka]

Tezukake     - I wonder what today will bring? says:
*http://rmrk.net/index.php/topic,35313.25.html
*Irock makes me want to rage
*Sure, healthcare like the NHS isn't the best

Purge the unclean! Destroy the righteous! says:
*i know
*i read through it all
 
Tezukake     - I wonder what today will bring? says:
*But if I break my arm, I know that I don't have to pay a shitload of money to get it treated

That's all I have to say on the matter.

[Sophist]

that's what confuses me about irock's stance entirely. i dont understand how one would take advantage of free healthcare. it's not like people are going to intentionally hurt themselves all the time just so they can get free treatment out of it. that's why i feel like he's really just arguing welfare, not socialized health care.

I highly doubt Irock even thought of what I can rebuke to this, and if he says he did, he's probably bullshitting but;

People can abuse themselves to get drugs out of the system, morphine and all that shit that would normally be given as a procedure and take home for personal treatment.

[SirJackRex]

I heard it as like 20% of the wealthiest people control in USA 80% of the its money. Maybe it was 2%/80%.

With Obama's health care plan, only people who make an income of $200,000 or more will pay for it. Something tells me the majority of those people are going to have private health care.

So? I don't see your point. If you're saying those people can afford private healthcare then yes, they can afford it. It gives them more benefits I'm going to assume. And what's wrong with that? Just like some people don't use libraries, but others do and they appreciate being able to.

The whole point of public plans is that it won't kill insurance companies and create competition. If they see that people are getting healthcare from someone else for less (and in many ways the the insurance company itself ends up paying for it) they'll want to rethink their policies to make them more attractive.
Now elaborating that parentheses bit, I'd assume the less people on the public plan the taxes will go down.

It seems likely that people who are abusing the system by being able to afford private healthcare would be dropped.
The way I see this is for the people who honestly cannot make ends meat while paying for healthcare.

[Kokowam]

that's what confuses me about irock's stance entirely. i dont understand how one would take advantage of free healthcare. it's not like people are going to intentionally hurt themselves all the time just so they can get free treatment out of it. that's why i feel like he's really just arguing welfare, not socialized health care.

I highly doubt Irock even thought of what I can rebuke to this, and if he says he did, he's probably bullshitting but;

That was my impression to what Irock's stance was the whole time. I thought the socialized health care was just an example.

[Malson]

[22:06:17] <@Malson> do you feel that paying a small extra amount in taxes is a breach of your personal rights?
[22:06:33] <@Malson> even though that extra amount could easily save lives?
[22:06:53] <+Irock> blah blah blah lives lives lives
[22:06:55] <+Irock> fuck lives
[22:06:57] <+Irock> they can all rot
[22:07:12] <+Irock> if they don't want to pay for their life, let them die

I think that should bring this thread to a close.

[EvilM00s]

I second the moton.

[Esmeralda]

Europe sees america as a bunch of weirdos who say no to human rights. In France you'll pay up to 10€ for a hospital visit and their taxes aren't steep or anything and they're known as happy, outgoing people. If you were born in poor conditions with no hope of education and proper work in the US then you're basically screwed. Why wouldn't you opt for a system that make the inhabitants happier? Most of your money goes toward benefits that make you happier and leaves you with less money to spend on totally useful stuff like videogames and a third TV.

Coming from a family with poor economic capabilities I am quite happy the system we have here works as it does. It should be especially relevant because of this recession we're going through causing people to get fired left and right; tons of people here have lost their jobs and they predict it'll get worse. But in the end we know it'll be okay because we have those who are still lucky to have jobs to look out for us less fortunate while we look for a new one.

[tSwitch]

Skanker, the problem with America is greed, and that nobody cares about anyone but themselves.

That's why people are against stuff like socialized healthcare. 
"It's -my- money, why should -I- ever pay to help someone else?" etc...

[modern algebra]

I live in Canada, so obviously healthcare is socialized here and I think that it's a better system than in the States. But I think you should probably be a little cautious about it - a lot of you don't seem to be questioning the system at all, as if it's going to be equivalent or roughly equivalent to the healthcare you receive now except not as expensive. It's not going to be, especially in rural areas; it's going to get a lot worse. Cancer patients shouldn't have to wait several weeks for diagnostic surgery or treatment. Waiting times, on average, are bad in Canada, but even that average is brought up a lot by the cities. When a hospital needs new equipment, they have to petition an administrative body of the government, and the government will react faster to places with larger populations or areas that have a lot of people who would vote for their party. A majority of doctors would probably prefer to live in a city with good equipment than move to some rural town with shit for equipment. Where there is a market demand, that is an incentive - when you make the same money no matter where you go, many of the best doctors will choose cities. The fact is that as with any government program, money is going to be stretched thin, and they can't update medical services everywhere they need to. Further, the cost of providing healthcare increases with time, which means to continue high quality treatment the government would have to continually raise taxes, but governments don't do that because the population complains and they don't get re-elected. So not only is it going to be worse immediately, but it's going to get even worse as time passes.

I think you guys shouldn't be so reactionary about it. The system you have is bad, and socialized healthcare is better, but it seems to me that because people like Irock are so against it others are just championing it as the best thing ever. You have to take care to design the best possible healthcare system before it's implemented, because it's going to be next to impossible to change once it is. I think the supporters of it should be a lot more critical than they have been. I do think that worse healthcare is a morally correct tradeoff for increased access to healthcare, but there are better and worse ways to implement socialized healthcare. If the supporters of socialized healthcare are so partisan and uncritical of it because you're trying to react to proponents of the current system, then you end up rejecting good arguments that would make a socialized system better if they were considered in its implementation. I think you guys should be more careful before dismissing the arguments because, yes, the increased access is worth the costs, but it will exact a higher cost if people who support socialized healthcare aren't critical of its implementation, and I haven't seen much of that in this thread.

[tSwitch]

Of course there are problems that need to be ironed out, I agree as well. 
However I don't agree with Irock's reasons for opposing it.

[Irock]

If there were government controlled healthcare, I'd want only those who don't have private healthcare to pay for my medical treatment. Obviously, there would be a lot of people who use the government controlled healthcare, and a system like this could work.