Socialism

[Irock]

Socialized Health Care

[Holkeye]

What a stupid website. Propaganda.

[chewey]

In Australia we have both private and public hospitals. Public hospitals are free but yes, there is often a waiting time. There is a huge problem with Australian healthcare right now but it's because we just don't have enough hospitals/people to staff them, rather than a problem with the system.

If you have the money, you are welcome to immediate care in a private hospital.

[S.K. Ren]

I don't understand why people are whining about socialized health care. Granted the implementation is where all the criticism should go, but most people I've encountered seem to get hung up on the socialized part of the name. Hell, here in the US we've had a socialized welfare system since 1935, its called Social Security. It has social in the name but no one complains about that.

[Irock]

Socialized health care = have someone else pay for your medical bill. It's not my fault you can't afford health insurance-- it's your own. I shouldn't have to pay for deadbeat drug atticts because I decided to work my ass off in life and get a good job. Success should be rewarded, not punished.

The Obama administration wants America to depend on them. If America is depending on them, America is going to vote for them. Just listen to these idiots. Who do you think they voted for? Why do you think they voted for him? What do you think they've done to be successful in life?

Welfare is stupid too. Nobody should get free shit because they didn't work hard enough. If you're disabled and are unable to get a job after honestly trying, then I'm fine with them getting enough to live. I don't know where you get "no one complains about that" from.

[chewey]

Socialized health care = have someone else pay for your medical bill. It's not my fault you can't afford health insurance-- it's your own. I shouldn't have to pay for deadbeat drug atticts because I decided to work my ass off in life and get a good job. Success should be rewarded, not punished.

The Obama administration wants America to depend on them. If America is depending on them, America is going to vote for them. Just listen to these idiots. Who do you think they voted for? Why do you think they voted for him? What do you think they've done to be successful in life?

Welfare is stupid too. Nobody should get free shit because they didn't work hard enough. If you're disabled and are unable to get a job after honestly trying, then I'm fine with them getting enough to live. I don't know where you get "no one complains about that" from.

How much do you think is going to be added per person in tax to fund this social healthcare system? Answer: not a lot! If you're unwilling to pay a tiny bit more in your taxes to provide everybody with decent healthcare (it turns out there are those less fortunate in the US and, for several reasons [such as a poor education], they are unable to get a high paying job that would fund their x operation [which are fucking costly, you arsehole]) then you're pretty much just a big jerk. Cool, man.

[Holkeye]

Irock only has healthcare because his parents have it. Get out in the word a little, and then have an opinion.

[Irock]

How much do you think is going to be added per person in tax to fund this social healthcare system? Answer: not a lot! If you're unwilling to pay a tiny bit more in your taxes to provide everybody with decent healthcare (it turns out there are those less fortunate in the US and, for several reasons [such as a poor education], they are unable to get a high paying job that would fund their x operation [which are fucking costly, you arsehole]) then you're pretty much just a big jerk. Cool, man.

The amount is irrelevant and unknown. It's the principle. I don't want anyone to pay for me, and I don't want to pay for anyone else. If everyone actually tried to be able to afford health care, they could. There are people that have come from the shittiest projects and the shittiest schools to being successful. You just have to apply yourself. Anyone who thinks someone else is obligated to pay for them is a real asshole.

Irock only has healthcare because his parents have it. Get out in the word a little, and then have an opinion.

Even if I didn't have healthcare, I wouldn't want socialized health care. I'm not a greedy leech like so many other people. I prefer to work for my benefits. I don't want people to work for me.

[EvilM00s]

Yeah? Bullshit. I work in the healthcare industry in the US. Emergency medicine, to be exact. The fact that I can't afford healthcare aside, the number of patients who have chosen to suffer rather than go to the hospital and pay a bill is fucking staggering. If I could have helped them pay the bill, I would have. It's not a question of working for what you need, it's a question of society taking care of its members. Even cows have enough sense to protect the herd.

[SirJackRex]

The fun irony of this is that in the end the Insurance Executives will be paying for other people's healthcare while denying those who can't go through them.

[Irock]

Yeah? Bullshit. I work in the healthcare industry in the US. Emergency medicine, to be exact. The fact that I can't afford healthcare aside, the number of patients who have chosen to suffer rather than go to the hospital and pay a bill is fucking staggering. If I could have helped them pay the bill, I would have. It's not a question of working for what you need, it's a question of society taking care of its members. Even cows have enough sense to protect the herd.

Maybe we should have socialized water too! People need water to survive! We should have socialized electricity so people don't freeze to death! We could have socialized home insurance as well! Ah, I know. Let's give all our money to the government, and they can give us all everything! They can distribute an equal amount of water, electricity, give us all the same health insurance, let us all eat the same food, give everyone home insurance, give us all the same living facilities, give us all the same clothes, and everyone would be happy! We'd all be equals, and any money we made would go to the government to pay for everyone else! What a perfect world. The government is supposed to take care of us. :]]]

[Holkeye]

That's a dumb comparison. It might be valid if there were "water insurance" but there isn't. Another case of someone with no knowledge on a subject trying to form an opinion.

[Irock]

It's valid because it's an example of how ridiculous it would be if everything were socialized.

Your only argument seems to be "you're a kid you don't now anything lol"

[EvilM00s]

Maybe we should have socialized water too! People need water to survive! We should have socialized electricity so people don't freeze to death! We could have socialized home insurance as well!

Maybe we should.

The government is supposed to take care of us. :]]]

No? Then what is it for?

Ah, I know. Let's give all our money to the government, and they can give us all everything! They can distribute an equal amount of water, electricity, give us all the same health insurance, let us all eat the same food, give everyone home insurance, give us all the same living facilities, give us all the same clothes, and everyone would be happy! We'd all be equals, and any money we made would go to the government to pay for everyone else! What a perfect world.

I'd agree with you, except that history has shown that a totally socialist society does not work. I think we need to have a balance of free enterprise AND gov't organized programs. I will say, though, that before we do that, we as a country need to get the politicians under OUR thumb instead of the other way round.

And Irock, just for the record, I don't think you're a dumb kid. In fact, you strike me as a very intelligent, witty and articulate individual. You must be, or you couldn't piss me off so much! I just think that once you start REALLY taking care of yourself and see how tough it is, maybe you opinion will change about a few things.

[Kebin]

The government is supposed to take care of us. :]]]

No? Then what is it for?

To govern us. Hence the name. They're only here to make sure we don't all kill ourselves. Without the people, there is no government.

[EvilM00s]

Exactly. So shouldn't a government run by the people take care of its people? What is the ultimate purpose of the making and execution of law? Shouldn't law be for the benefit of the country in all aspects? And if so, why not have law that provides for the people's basic needs?

Look, I don't want a totalitarian government. I do want a government that offers me a choice between going it alone and having help when I need it. While there are programs that do offer help to those in need, they are flawed because of the stark and sudden cutoffs. If you make x amount of money per year, you get a, b, and c help. If you go a cent above the cutoff, you get no help. That's just one aspect among many. The system does not work. Other systems do- at least better than ours. I think we are entitled to something better.

[Irock]

Maybe we should.

We shouldn't.

No? Then what is it for?

They're here to make and enforce rules, laws and regulations. They're here to protect the country and the people in it. They're also here to provide necessary services such as law enforcement, fire protection, emergency services, the national weather service, public schools, and the military.

Law enforcement - Enforces the law. Without law, there's chaos. Keeps people safe.
Fire protection - Keeps people safe. Prevents properties from being destroyed.
Emergency services - Keeps people safe.
The National Weather Service - Keeps people safe.
Public schools - Enables people to get an education, eventually leading to people being able to pay for themselves.
Military - Keeps the country safe.

We don't need unnecessary services such as Cash for Clunkers, public libraries, Welfare for those who can get jobs, and socialized medicine.

Cash for clunkers - Trading less fuel efficient vehicles for fuel efficient ones.
Public libraries - It's like a video rental store except with books and everyone pays for it even if they don't use it. It's like if they made a blockbuster tax.
Welfare - This is given out to lazy people who don't want to succeed in life so they can pay to live, or disabled people who can't get jobs. It should only apply to the latter if they absolutely can't get a single job that pays enough to live.
Socialized medicine - Free health care for people who don't make enough to afford health insurance, won't get a job that provides health insurance, don't plan on advancing in their career to pay for health insurance, don't want to go to college to get a good enough job, and don't plan on trying to pay their personal medical bills.

If you want to help people afford things that aren't necessities, do it with your own money. It's not the government's job to steal money from those who make money and give it to those who don't.

[EvilM00s]

Welfare - This is given out to lazy people who don't want to succeed in life so they can pay to live, or disabled people who can't get jobs. It should only apply to the latter if they absolutely can't get a single job that pays enough to live.

Agreed. I can't say the same for anything else you said, though. As far as the government stealing money, well, they have other agencies in their corrupt little pockets to do that for them. Look into the background of the previous administration and you should see what I mean. Or mandatory auto insurance.

I am totally mystified that you would say putting more fuel efficient cars on the road is bad. How is that bad? Public libraries are supposed to house information and culture. How is that bad?

As far as fire and emergency services goes, that's what I do. The past three years the two departments I work for have received barely enough to pay salaries- funny, considering the highest paid among us makes $17.50 an hour- never mind keeping our equipment in repair. So much for the government holding up their end of things.

On that note, I'm a fire medic. I've gone to school, gotten training and work my ass off every day. Yes, there are people who want to have everything handed to them and don't do shit to improve their position in life, but not me. If the lazy fuck across the street gets free healthcare, why don't I, the working stiff who provides some of that care, get anything? If he's entitled to it, so am I and so is everyone else, and I defy you to tell the mom whose little girl just got hit by a car that health insurance is not a necessity.

[Irock]

Agreed. I can't say the same for anything else you said, though. As far as the government stealing money, well, they have other agencies in their corrupt little pockets to do that for them. Look into the background of the previous administration and you should see what I mean.

I don't know what you mean.

I am totally mystified that you would say putting more fuel efficient cars on the road is bad. How is that bad? Public libraries are supposed to house information and culture. How is that bad?

It's not a necessity. Better cars are something people should pay for themselves. The government shouldn't even be involved in car trading.

As far as fire and emergency services goes, that's what I do. The past three years the two departments I work for have received barely enough to pay salaries- funny, considering the highest paid among us makes $17.50 an hour- never mind keeping our equipment in repair. So much for the government holding up their end of things.

I think it's time to consider a new career.

On that note, I'm a fire medic. I've gone to school, gotten training and work my ass off every day.

That's why you should have researched and planned your career goals, if you honestly can't afford health insurance.

Yes, there are people who want to have everything handed to them and don't do shit to improve their position in life, but not me. If the lazy fuck across the street gets free healthcare, why don't I, the working stiff who provides some of that care, get anything? If he's entitled to it, so am I and so is everyone else, and I defy you to tell the mom whose little girl just got hit by a car that health insurance is not a necessity.

Everyone's entitled to the opportunities to be able to have health care. Everyone gets these opportunities, unless they're unable to work due to a disability. Nobody's entitled to free health care, unless maybe they're disabled and unable to work.

[firerain]

Agreed. I can't say the same for anything else you said, though. As far as the government stealing money, well, they have other agencies in their corrupt little pockets to do that for them. Look into the background of the previous administration and you should see what I mean.

I don't know what you mean.

when people elect a third party to make decisions in their best interest, it never happens, they make decisions in their own interest.

[Irock]

Agreed. I can't say the same for anything else you said, though. As far as the government stealing money, well, they have other agencies in their corrupt little pockets to do that for them. Look into the background of the previous administration and you should see what I mean.

I don't know what you mean.

when people elect a third party to make decisions in their best interest, it never happens, they make decisions in their own interest.

We elect parties to govern us. Not make decisions for us. It's a democracy, and everything should be voted on.

[firerain]

Capitalism is a system of equal responsibility without equal opportunity. Work for those more fortunate than you or live on the fringe of society.

These are the options of a proletarian.

[EvilM00s]

A fellow employee here asked me once, "If capitalism is so bad, what should we do instead?"  I don't know. I wish I did. Capitalism has its useful aspects, but so does socialism, or a monarchy. Hell, feudalism worked for a while. I wish there was a way to get the working parts of all those different systems, cram them in a box and say, "here's yer perfect government".

[Irock]

Capitalism is a system of equal responsibility without equal opportunity. Work for those more fortunate than you or live on the fringe of society.

These are the options of a proletarian.

Nobody has equal opportunity. Some people are more lucky than others. However, everyone has the opportunity (not an equal one) to become the person others work for. Not everyone chooses to pursue that opportunity, however.

[EvilM00s]

If not everyone has the same opportunity, the system doesn't work.

But again, I cannot argue that some are more apt to pursue bettering themselves than others.

Here's the post I accidentally put in the sewers:

I think it's time to consider a new career.
That's why you should have researched and planned your career goals, if you honestly can't afford health insurance.

Woah, buddy. Not cool. What if everyone in my field "considered a new career"?

By your own argument, emergency services are essential and should be provided by the gov't. If that is true, gov't funds should go towards fire departments' upkeep and payroll, and thet are not. With the addition of healthcare alone, my salary would be enough to support me and my family of four others.

I planned my career around service, as does anyone else in my position. If the gov't was dispensing funds to FD's the way it should, I could afford insurance. I maintain, they are not holding up their end of the deal. And why not?

While I agree that the gov't should be involved in free enterprise as little as possible, more fuel efficient cars are just good for everyone, and the environment. Isn't that everyone's responsibility?