Proof

[Nightwolf]

I can prove it to you in many ways.
Like, youw ant a birth certificate or a photo..


and the fact that I'm posting here is pretty good evidence that I

you know


exist.


;-;

like with everything else, those could all be easily fabricated.  In fact, birth certificates and photos are often manipulated or fabricated for the purpose of making people disappear or disguising as people who don't truly exist.

then tell me what you consider as proof. I'll use it to explain my existance.

heh
that was fun lol

[tSwitch]

I think with this topic you have to think outside the box...

For instance you exist in the fact that we have our senses and we can make decisions on our own free will...
However you may not exist in the fact that we can only use at the most about 7% of our brain...There are so many things we can't comprehend and/or don't know...

We could be a thought, a dream, or even a re-enactment of a parallel universe for all I know...

Yes you have a birth certificate, but that does not mean we exist.

but I don't know that you actually sense, or think, or make decisions, because I can't see inside your head.  for all I know you could be part of a grand illusion, that's the whole point of this.

then tell me what you consider as proof. I'll use it to explain my existance.

heh
that was fun lol

I don't know.
I haven't found a way to prove my existence to anyone but myself, but when I do, I'll let you know.

[Chase_Leader]

but I don't know that you actually sense, or think, or make decisions, because I can't see inside your head.  for all I know you could be part of a grand illusion, that's the whole point of this.

That is true, I could just be an illusion to you telling you what you already know in your sub-conscious...for all I know we could be deeply connected to everyone and everything having a similar connected deep sub-consciousness that will forever be un-obtainable...

However I do believe in Free Will, so maybe the two ideas are combined somehow...

I am not saying that we exist or don't I am saying that it makes more sense that the idea of us exists...IMO we are not capable of comprehending if we exist or don't exist, but if the idea of us exists then some form of existence must exist, making us at least exist on some unknown level.

I EXIST even if I don't understand how!
The new question is do you Exist?
If you truly are an illusion then I am ultimately debating this with someone that does not exist but then everyone is responding to my message meaning that either my sub-conscious is debating against itself or is responding to something that does exist...

[modern algebra]

I know I said I was done, but I'm really bad at letting things go.

Again, it could all be a very complex and clever illusion, or you could all be intelligent bots.

By this statement, are you then asserting that bots do not exist, or that when people say they have hallucinations they are lying, because hallucinations do not exist? Or perhaps they're not lying, but are rather hallucinations themselves, but then super paradox because hallucinations do not exist

If I were a not-so-intelligent bot, how does that mean I don't exist? If I were a hallucination, how do I not exist as hallucination?  Because that's what this is implying... and I don't understand why bots and hallucinations don't exist.

If this is an illusion and it does not exist, how can you experience it? If something does not exist, how can it be anything other than nothing? If nothing can exist that is false, what is the imagination?

[tSwitch]

a hallucination is in a sense a lie.
which can easily be perceived and experienced, regardless of the fact that they are untrue.

so they're not lying about having a hallucination, but if they said "dude look at that ice cream, it's talking to me", and they were hallucinating, then the statement is not true.

the idea of existing is something that is real, and true, as opposed to something that is a lie and unreal, such as an illusion or a hallucination.

if you need me to be super specific as to what I'm talking about, to leave no possible loopholes, then I will be.

Take existing to mean something true, and real.
In reference to a person, existing means that they are in fact a living, breathing, thinking, judging, etc... person.

so, 'prove to me that you exist' asks for proof that the person in question is indeed a living, breathing, thinking, judging, etc... person, and not in some way a fake person or part of an illusion or hallucination.

stop trying to redefine the question as I intended it, or your answers will not fit the question I posed.

And yeah, I'm bad at letting things go too.

[Kokowam]

I think that everyone exists. >_> Okay, what if we're a bot or someone with fabricated identities? We might not be the person you think we are, but we will still be in existence. If you acknowledge ANY sort of action/senses that a person, place, or thing does/stimulates, then the said person/place/thing exists. We don't have to be who you think we are. >_>

Doesn't existing just meaning that you are? If you wanna go about being truthful, why not just ask "Prove to me you've never lied in your life?"

[Chase_Leader]

I guess what it comes down to is faith that we do exist so we all don't go crazy...yeah that sounds good to me

[tSwitch]

I think that everyone exists. >_> Okay, what if we're a bot or someone with fabricated identities? We might not be the person you think we are, but we will still be in existence. If you acknowledge ANY sort of action/senses that a person, place, or thing does/stimulates, then the said person/place/thing exists. We don't have to be who you think we are. >_>

yes, but from where I'm sitting all of your actions, senses, things that you do, say, etc... could all very well be a hallucination or an illusion.  That's the point.

[Chase_Leader]

yes, but from where I'm sitting all of your actions, senses, things that you do, say, etc... could all very well be a hallucination or an illusion.  That's the point.

Then in that case lay off the LSD...
(I'm sorry in advance if my comments are becoming ruder as the day goes on...I have to deal with cx's calling because they dropped their $600 iPhone and want us to replace it for them at no cost and 10 Trillion other issues...so yeah...)

So in theory you would be an illusion to me, I know I exist...the thing is I don't use LSD so you aren't an illusion...
(ok I'll stop)

Even if I was an illusion its still an illusion that exists in your mind...right so I think there for I am...or if I was an illusion you think there for you are...either way one of us exists...

[tSwitch]

Then in that case lay off the LSD...
(I'm sorry in advance if my comments are becoming ruder as the day goes on...I have to deal with cx's calling because they dropped their $600 iPhone and want us to replace it for them at no cost and 10 Trillion other issues...so yeah...)

So in theory you would be an illusion to me, I know I exist...the thing is I don't use LSD so you aren't an illusion...
(ok I'll stop)

Even if I was an illusion its still an illusion that exists in your mind...right so I think there for I am...or if I was an illusion you think there for you are...either way one of us exists...

you're missing the point.

[Holkeye]

ITT: Namkcor tells you you're wrong.

[Kokowam]

I think that everyone exists. >_> Okay, what if we're a bot or someone with fabricated identities? We might not be the person you think we are, but we will still be in existence. If you acknowledge ANY sort of action/senses that a person, place, or thing does/stimulates, then the said person/place/thing exists. We don't have to be who you think we are. >_>

yes, but from where I'm sitting all of your actions, senses, things that you do, say, etc... could all very well be a hallucination or an illusion.  That's the point.

Isn't a hallucination existing? It's probably some kinda brain impulses thing that screw up your vision. So would not that brain impulse exist?

[tSwitch]

Isn't a hallucination existing? It's probably some kinda brain impulses thing that screw up your vision. So would not that brain impulse exist?

it only exists until you find that it is false, and it is dispelled.
meaning that it never -truly- existed in the first place.

read:

a hallucination is in a sense a lie.
which can easily be perceived and experienced, regardless of the fact that they are untrue.

so they're not lying about having a hallucination, but if they said "dude look at that ice cream, it's talking to me", and they were hallucinating, then the statement is not true.

the idea of existing is something that is real, and true, as opposed to something that is a lie and unreal, such as an illusion or a hallucination.

if you need me to be super specific as to what I'm talking about, to leave no possible loopholes, then I will be.

Take existing to mean something true, and real.
In reference to a person, existing means that they are in fact a living, breathing, thinking, judging, etc... person.

so, 'prove to me that you exist' asks for proof that the person in question is indeed a living, breathing, thinking, judging, etc... person, and not in some way a fake person or part of an illusion or hallucination.

stop trying to redefine the question as I intended it, or your answers will not fit the question I posed.

And yeah, I'm bad at letting things go too.

[Kokowam]

Well, you're the one defining what "existence" means. >_> I say existence means "it just is and as long as it can be imagined, thought, seen, tastes, heard, etc. then it exists." In that case:

And if you can alter the definition of existence to prove you exist to yourself, why is it off limits for me to alter the definition of existence to prove to you that I exist?

This is probably the thing that will make this whole topic into:

ITT: Namkcor tells you you're wrong.

[tSwitch]

Well, you're the one defining what "existence" means. >_> I say existence means "it just is and as long as it can be imagined, thought, seen, tastes, heard, etc. then it exists." In that case:

but what happens when it ceases to be seen, tasted, heard, etc...
did it ever 'truly' exist in that case?


alright, you know what, I'll post what I really should have in the first place.
"prove that you are a sentient being, and are not part of some grand illusion or hallucination"

[Nightwolf]

Thats not for us to prove, Nam.
If we are a part of a hallucination and you see is, then it's your hallucination.


So you have to prove to yourself if you are hallucinating or not.






I wish malson was here.

[Chase_Leader]

you're missing the point.

Maybe a little, I see what you saying...I think I just like debating a little too much at times...

Advocates of animal rights argue that all animals are sentient in that they can feel pleasure and pain, which entails the presumption of certain moral rights and ought to entail some legal rights. In eastern philosophy, sentience is a metaphysical quality of all things that requires our respect and care. In science fiction, sentience is "personhood": the essential quality that separates humankind from machines or lower animals. Sentience is used in the study of consciousness to describe the ability to have sensations or experiences, known to some philosophers as "qualia".(~Wikipedia~)

I think it all depends on the state your mind is in, if you believe it then to you it it true even if it isn't.  Which in that case the illusion would not exist it would as a thought but not as an actual sentient being...They can appear to have sensations or experience but we have no way of knowing if they really are or if it is truly an illusion...at this point I am going to step out of this debate because to be honest its going slightly over my head...maybe because its about 6:30 in the morning here in Minnesota...or the fact that I haven't done that much research on Sentient Beings...I respectfully withdraw from this debate...

[tSwitch]

Thats not for us to prove, Nam.
If we are a part of a hallucination and you see is, then it's your hallucination.

So you have to prove to yourself if you are hallucinating or not.

in all reality, yes, this is true.
However, that's not the focus of this thread.
The illusion/hallucination is just a possible explanation I used to counter certain arguments.

The main focus of this thread assumes that you are in fact real, and asks for you to find a way to prove you are.

[Holkeye]

Obviously you are of the opinion that there is no way to prove this.

[Moss.]

Truth is, you want us to be real. You want to argue with us over this topic. So in your mind, we are real enough. Unless you're going to admit you're crazy and arguing with youself...

Weirdo.

[tSwitch]

Truth is, you want us to be real. You want to argue with us over this topic. So in your mind, we are real enough. Unless you're going to admit you're crazy and arguing with youself...

Weirdo.

it has nothing to do with what I believe or not
truly, I believe you all are real.

[Kokowam]

Then there's no need for proof.

[Moss.]

Truth is, you want us to be real. You want to argue with us over this topic. So in your mind, we are real enough. Unless you're going to admit you're crazy and arguing with youself...

Weirdo.

it has nothing to do with what I believe or not
truly, I believe you all are real.

But what if the Arlen you know is a farce, and the true Arlen is nothing like he pretend to be on the internet. In that sense, the Arlen you know does NOT exist, and it NOT real.

[tSwitch]

Truth is, you want us to be real. You want to argue with us over this topic. So in your mind, we are real enough. Unless you're going to admit you're crazy and arguing with youself...

Weirdo.

it has nothing to do with what I believe or not
truly, I believe you all are real.

But what if the Arlen you know is a farce, and the true Arlen is nothing like he pretend to be on the internet. In that sense, the Arlen you know does NOT exist, and it NOT real.

exactly

[Kokowam]

But Ryan does exist. Just the way you knew him changed. If I told my friends "Hey guys, I'm gay" (I'm not, btw ) but I was actually gay, my friends wouldn't say "Omg wow, you don't exist."