Are Save tutorials necessary?

[Irock]

This topic has been split from The Insanity

Died on the second chapter, wasn't given the option to save before I died, and quit because I didn't want to do two chapters over again.

The first chapter is a bit boring, honestly, but it was sort of exciting when I got to fight, at least until I died.

And, the mapping could use some work. It seems a bit plain or empty in a lot of areas.

save crystals bro.

and yeah, I'm working on mapping, but I can only do so much with the tileset I have for the school (bleh)

I only recall seeing one save crystal in the room you start in. Maybe you should make them stand out more, or ask the player if they want to save after every chapter?

And with the mapping, I know the school tileset doesn't have much, but you could do more with the RTP, such as in this map. There are a lot of empty spaces. Maybe you could make the room smaller, fill in some spaces with furniture, and add some decoration to the walls. =o

Oh, and the desks' shadows are supposed to be semi-transparent.

there's also one right outside the door of the school, if you missed it you're blind.

I'm not blind, but I shouldn't have to look around for things that were never pointed out to me. Maybe if you said "THIS IS A SAVE CRYSTAL. IT SAVES YOUR GAME. LOOK FOR THEM" then I might have noticed it. >:|

[tSwitch]

<blah>

it's a big shiny crystal in an RPG.  OBVIOUSLY it does -something-.

[Redwyn]

Died on the second chapter, wasn't given the option to save before I died, and quit because I didn't want to do two chapters over again.

The first chapter is a bit boring, honestly, but it was sort of exciting when I got to fight, at least until I died.

And, the mapping could use some work. It seems a bit plain or empty in a lot of areas.

save crystals bro.

and yeah, I'm working on mapping, but I can only do so much with the tileset I have for the school (bleh)

I only recall seeing one save crystal in the room you start in. Maybe you should make them stand out more, or ask the player if they want to save after every chapter?

And with the mapping, I know the school tileset doesn't have much, but you could do more with the RTP, such as in this map. There are a lot of empty spaces. Maybe you could make the room smaller, fill in some spaces with furniture, and add some decoration to the walls. =o

Oh, and the desks' shadows are supposed to be semi-transparent.

there's also one right outside the door of the school, if you missed it you're blind.

I'm not blind, but I shouldn't have to look around for things that were never pointed out to me. Maybe if you said "THIS IS A SAVE CRYSTAL. IT SAVES YOUR GAME. LOOK FOR THEM" then I might have noticed it. >:|

Nice contradiction, Irock. Oh, and if you saw a BIG BLUE CRYSTAL in your room, would you not go wtf and check it? Why didn't you check it? Instead of bitching about it weeks after the game came out?

[Irock]

Died on the second chapter, wasn't given the option to save before I died, and quit because I didn't want to do two chapters over again.

The first chapter is a bit boring, honestly, but it was sort of exciting when I got to fight, at least until I died.

And, the mapping could use some work. It seems a bit plain or empty in a lot of areas.

save crystals bro.

and yeah, I'm working on mapping, but I can only do so much with the tileset I have for the school (bleh)

I only recall seeing one save crystal in the room you start in. Maybe you should make them stand out more, or ask the player if they want to save after every chapter?

And with the mapping, I know the school tileset doesn't have much, but you could do more with the RTP, such as in this map. There are a lot of empty spaces. Maybe you could make the room smaller, fill in some spaces with furniture, and add some decoration to the walls. =o

Oh, and the desks' shadows are supposed to be semi-transparent.

there's also one right outside the door of the school, if you missed it you're blind.

I'm not blind, but I shouldn't have to look around for things that were never pointed out to me. Maybe if you said "THIS IS A SAVE CRYSTAL. IT SAVES YOUR GAME. LOOK FOR THEM" then I might have noticed it. >:|

Nice contradiction, Irock. Oh, and if you saw a BIG BLUE CRYSTAL in your room, would you not go wtf and check it? Why didn't you check it? Instead of bitching about it weeks after the game came out?

Uh, I'm not bitching. I'm simply telling him how I feel he could improve the game. It's a little thing called 'criticism'.

And I didn't even contradict myself.

[Sophist]

Died on the second chapter, wasn't given the option to save before I died, and quit because I didn't want to do two chapters over again.

The first chapter is a bit boring, honestly, but it was sort of exciting when I got to fight, at least until I died.

And, the mapping could use some work. It seems a bit plain or empty in a lot of areas.

save crystals bro.

and yeah, I'm working on mapping, but I can only do so much with the tileset I have for the school (bleh)

I only recall seeing one save crystal in the room you start in. Maybe you should make them stand out more, or ask the player if they want to save after every chapter?

And with the mapping, I know the school tileset doesn't have much, but you could do more with the RTP, such as in this map. There are a lot of empty spaces. Maybe you could make the room smaller, fill in some spaces with furniture, and add some decoration to the walls. =o

Oh, and the desks' shadows are supposed to be semi-transparent.

there's also one right outside the door of the school, if you missed it you're blind.

I'm not blind, but I shouldn't have to look around for things that were never pointed out to me. Maybe if you said "THIS IS A SAVE CRYSTAL. IT SAVES YOUR GAME. LOOK FOR THEM" then I might have noticed it. >:|

Nice contradiction, Irock. Oh, and if you saw a BIG BLUE CRYSTAL in your room, would you not go wtf and check it? Why didn't you check it? Instead of bitching about it weeks after the game came out?

Uh, I'm not bitching. I'm simply telling him how I feel he could improve the game. It's a little thing called 'criticism'.

And I didn't even contradict myself.

Irock is right.

Either way you both argue too much.

[modern algebra]

Not an explicit contradiction. But you do specifically say that you saw and knew what the save crystal was in your room, and then claimed that you did not know to look for save crystals at a later point in the game.

In any case, I agree that this game lacked a tutorial. That may not be a bad thing, as it is not too hard to get the hang of and the confusion of being thrust into the situation has thematic resonance. But, it can be disorienting all the same.

[Irock]

Not an explicit contradiction. But you do specifically say that you saw and knew what the save crystal was in your room, and then claimed that you did not know to look for save crystals at a later point in the game.

I assumed if there was an actual need to save, then it would have been pointed out. In most games they make it pretty clear that you need to save before a boss or mini-boss. =x

[Sophist]

Not an explicit contradiction. But you do specifically say that you saw and knew what the save crystal was in your room, and then claimed that you did not know to look for save crystals at a later point in the game.

I assumed if there was an actual need to save, then it would have been pointed out. In most games they make it pretty clear that you need to save before a boss or mini-boss. =x

They even did it in Eye of the Tiger 4

Anyway, I say let's stop this and leave the rest of the topic to NAMKCOR's game, and bitch about not putting in clear saves somewhere else, alright?

[tSwitch]

Not an explicit contradiction. But you do specifically say that you saw and knew what the save crystal was in your room, and then claimed that you did not know to look for save crystals at a later point in the game.

I assumed if there was an actual need to save, then it would have been pointed out. In most games they make it pretty clear that you need to save before a boss or mini-boss. =x

I wonder what kind of games you've been playing.
It's entirely the player's responsibility to save and keep track of the last time they recorded their data.

yeah, I should have probably made the first fight into a tutorial, but I didn't :/

[Irock]

Not an explicit contradiction. But you do specifically say that you saw and knew what the save crystal was in your room, and then claimed that you did not know to look for save crystals at a later point in the game.

I assumed if there was an actual need to save, then it would have been pointed out. In most games they make it pretty clear that you need to save before a boss or mini-boss. =x

I wonder what kind of games you've been playing.
It's entirely the player's responsibility to save and keep track of the last time they recorded their data.

I've been playing games where they don't leave you completely clueless.

[tSwitch]

I presented the game as a story, as though it was being told and acted out.  It broke the 4th wall enough when I put giant floating crystals inside modern society, it would have disrupted the flow of the story to say LOL LOOK HERE ITS A SAVEPOINT HURRR.

[Irock]

I presented the game as a story, as though it was being told and acted out.  It broke the 4th wall enough when I put giant floating crystals inside modern society, it would have disrupted the flow of the story to say LOL LOOK HERE ITS A SAVEPOINT HURRR.

No it wouldn't have. You need basic tutorials in a game. If the first battle was about to happen, that would be a good time to say "There's a save crystal, I should use it."

[tSwitch]

I presented the game as a story, as though it was being told and acted out.  It broke the 4th wall enough when I put giant floating crystals inside modern society, it would have disrupted the flow of the story to say LOL LOOK HERE ITS A SAVEPOINT HURRR.

No it wouldn't have. You need basic tutorials in a game. If the first battle was about to happen, that would be a good time to say "There's a save crystal, I should use it."

again, it breaks the flow of the story, therefore, I didn't do it. I am not going to bicker with you over this further.  The fact of the matter is, you're the ONLY person to have this issue.

I don't 'need' anything in a game.  There is no criteria that I have to follow, this isn't a school essay with a rubric.  This is my work, this is my presentation, and it happens on my terms.  It's my creation, and whether or not I feel it necessary to point out a fucking glowing crystal is up to me to decide.

[Irock]

I presented the game as a story, as though it was being told and acted out.  It broke the 4th wall enough when I put giant floating crystals inside modern society, it would have disrupted the flow of the story to say LOL LOOK HERE ITS A SAVEPOINT HURRR.

No it wouldn't have. You need basic tutorials in a game. If the first battle was about to happen, that would be a good time to say "There's a save crystal, I should use it."

again, it breaks the flow of the story, therefore, I didn't do it. I am not going to bicker with you over this further.  The fact of the matter is, you're the ONLY person to have this issue.

Everyone says you're thrown into that game clueless. I don't see why you're getting so upset that not everyone finds your game to be the best game ever made.

[tSwitch]

Zxmelee said you were thrown into the game clueless, and people said that they had trouble with the battles because of lack of a tutorial.  I agree that I could have and should have put in a battle tutorial.

Zx is hardly 'everyone'

You are telling me that I should have to tell the player when to save.  That is entirely NOT my responsibility.

Also, taking it all out of context to say I get pissed when you say that my game isn't 'the best game ever' is a childish response created for the sole fact that you can't defend your point anymore.

This little argument is over.

Keep bitching that you weren't smart enough to save all you want, I really don't care at this point.

[Irock]

Zxmelee said you were thrown into the game clueless, and people said that they had trouble with the battles because of lack of a tutorial.  I agree that I could have and should have put in a battle tutorial.

Zx is hardly 'everyone'

You are telling me that I should have to tell the player when to save.  That is entirely NOT my responsibility.

This is your responsibility, as the player shouldn't have to try to guess when it's necessary to save. If you don't point it out, the player could go the whole game without saving and die on the last boss, especially non-gamers. Just about every game I've played tells you how to save. The simple fact that it's telling you how to save tells me that it might actually be a good idea to do it. If a game doesn't tell you to save, I assume I won't need to save, since it's not important enough to point out.

Also, taking it all out of context to say I get pissed when you say that my game isn't 'the best game ever' is a childish response created for the sole fact that you can't defend your point anymore.

No, I said it because YOU'RE acting childish over a little criticism. I stopped defending my point in the previous post because you said "I am not going to bicker with you over this further."

Keep bitching that you weren't smart enough to save all you want, I really don't care at this point.

Once again, I'm not bitching. I'm criticizing. My criticism is valid.

[modern algebra]

Valid yes, but you have to admit it's a bit silly to carry on with it. You've informed him that the lack of a saving tutorial has turned you off the game and he has noted your objection and refused as he believes that having a narrator or whatever talk to the player breaks the mood of a story. Thus, there isn't really anything to discuss with him Irock.

As a game creator, it is not his imperative that he appease every person who plays his game. He has answered your criticism and has the right to reject it, and he has.

[Irock]

As a game creator, it is not his imperative that he appease every person who plays his game. He has answered your criticism and has the right to reject it, and he has.

But as a player, I have a right to respond to remarks he makes about my comments.

[modern algebra]

Well, in that case I'll split the topic and send this portion of it to Game Creation General Chat. There's no need to clutter this topic.

[Irock]

An entire save tutorial isn't necessary. The game telling you in one line how to save is, though.

[droginator]

An entire save tutorial isn't necessary. The game telling you in one line how to save is, though.

I agree, because at the start of a game, you won't know "Look for these crystals; They're save points" or "You can't save in dungeons or anywhere except the world map", without the game telling you.

[tSwitch]

I've played several games in which, saving was noted in the instruction manual and never in the game itself, and this is not an issue.  I didn't make an instructions manual, as I don't have the proper tools to create a decent .pdf file at this time.

it is the player's responsibility to manage their own game data, not the creators.

I'm not going to have an anonymous faceless voice come into the story to say OH BY THE WAY THAT GLOWING CRYSTAL IS A SAVE POINT! when the entire point of the game is to tell a story, and to maintain the flow of the story.

it's a glowing crystal, I -couldn't- have made it any more obvious.

[madriel222]

NAM is right, it's the player's responsibility to manage their own game data.  Tutorials to save your game are never needed unless 1) You use a unique, inconspicuous way to save or 2) There are other things to do at your save points besides manage game data.  The author can only do so much, there comes a point where the player can't have everything spoon fed to them. If, as a player, you fail to find the save points, or fail to manage your game data right, it's your fault. Just like not finding a key or other key object falls on your shoulders, so does not finding your save points.  Lack of curiousness or attentiveness for the loss.

[Irock]

It's the player's responsibility to save, but it's the game designer's responsibility to tell the player if saving is necessary or not. If they don't mention something, then you shouldn't have to do it. If you're supposed to take a pencil sitting on a desk in a game, but you're not told to do it, you wouldn't think it's necessary, thus causing you not to take it.

I'm not going to have an anonymous faceless voice come into the story to say OH BY THE WAY THAT GLOWING CRYSTAL IS A SAVE POINT! when the entire point of the game is to tell a story, and to maintain the flow of the story.

IT IS NOT GOING TO KILL thE FLOW OF YOUR STORY. IT WILL MAKE YOUR GAME SEEM LIKE IT HAS A LITTLE DIRECTION.

[Arrow]

NAM is right, it's the player's responsibility to manage their own game data.  Tutorials to save your game are never needed unless 1) You use a unique, inconspicuous way to save or 2) There are other things to do at your save points besides manage game data.  The author can only do so much, there comes a point where the player can't have everything spoon fed to them. If, as a player, you fail to find the save points, or fail to manage your game data right, it's your fault. Just like not finding a key or other key object falls on your shoulders, so does not finding your save points.  Lack of curiousness or attentiveness for the loss.

I agree 100%.