North American Metal vs. International Metal

I know this makes me sound even more of an elitist than you guys. But really, it's just a plead for acceptance and maturity. I don't care if you hate rap, Halo. I don't care if you detest modern music, Fu. What I care about is you guys throwing around your insults to these categories of music as if they were fact. Music can be very enjoyable to plenty of people. If you don't like them, fine. But there are plenty of people who do, and your abrasive comments only serve to insult those who like bands of that nature.

And in all honesty, you shouldn't care what we hate. You shouldn't even care too much about what we like, if at all. The fact of the matter is, you should just like or dislike whatever you want, no matter what other people say about it. However...

Maybe it's just me, but I find about 90-95% of the music I hear sounds good. Even people like Ludacris and Fall Out Boy, I find myself listening to. Perhaps I'm just easily pleased. But I know it's stupid to be an elitist about the music you like. I'll start with rebuttal of Halo's statement about rap. Rap is certainly music, and not just by the dictionary definition. Sure, rap songs don't have strong melodies, sometimes no melody at all. But there's plenty of elements to it that make it music. Not to mention rap is poetry, no matter what way you look at it. Sure, you may not like it, but it's music, and there's no way around that.

You are right that rap is poetry... which makes it art, not music. Good poetry? In some cases, I've heard rap that has some pretty good lyrics actually. It's usually not what's on the radio though...

But music? I still disagree with you. We have in a large amount of rap music: lyrics, drum beats, and MAYBE a synthesizer.

You have lyrics, which aren't sung, so this constitutes nothing towards being music.

The drums are very rarely played by a human, but rather by a drum machine, which means they just selcet the beat they want, set the tempo, and voila, you have your very own "drummer". Still no musicallity added at this point.

Synth: The ones that have a synthesizer have a tiny bit of musicianship, if you can even call it that. Anyone can plink out a succession of three or four notes, add a drum machine behind it, and then rap about whatever the hell you want. The actual writing of what the synthesizer is playing takes very little talent. Creating the sounds for it on the other hand, when they do actually use custom sounds, takes a bit of talent.

I cannot find what elements you're looking at that makes it music.

It has phrasing, but you need that in poetry as well. It has rhythm, I suppose... which is an element of music... but a washing machine has rhythm as well. Washing machines don't make music.

Let me give you a better example. In the music world there is something called a "cadence". You may have heard of that, of course, but there is another definition (sort of) for it, which is used primarily in marching band, and in parades: when the drums are playing this cool little groove. Yes, we write out the music for it, but it isn't a song, because all it contains is three elements: Rhythm, dynamics, and phrasing. So, hence we do not consider the percussionists'cadences music.

It lacks melody, counter melody, moving parts, dynamics, cadences (in the traditional sense, not the cadence from above), point, counterpoint... all the necessary elements for music other than rhythm. Hence, rap = art, but rap doesn't = music.

Now, let's look at a band like Green Day. I hate Green Day. Maybe you don't and that's perfectly fine. They just don't appeal to me. I don't think they're very talented, but that's not really the reason most people listen to them. Even still, whether I think they're talented or not, they have all the necessary elements of music in their songs. Except maybe dynamics... which really isn't necessary come to think of it.

My washing machine makes music...I call him George.

But I read all that. You also present a valid point. I would agree about the rap comment, and Green Day, heh. I think a combo of both of your posts could be a good philsophy for any musician.

In all actuallity it makes no difference to me what music people listen to. I may make fun of Fall Out Boy, or other bands, but that isn't enough of a reason for me to dislike somebody.

I still stand by my belief that rap isn't music, and everyone I know that knows anything about music agrees. However, society has labeled it music, and so it will stay...

I can't wait til there's an Oldies station that plays rap...

I was listening to 'classic fm' and it had on 'todays special' which was the black eyed peas. I only listened to it becuase its on classic fm. Its kewl.

Your "lack of melody = not music" argument is something we can just agree to disagree on. However, I noted that you mentioned how the use of drum machines meant there was hardly any musicianship. You don't have to play any instruments whatsoever to create music, which is why I'm confused why you, as a composer, would say something like that.

True, I suppose I should've elaborated a bit.

Thinking now, I can't be 100% sure, but I would say the rap artists do not program the drum machines themselves, it seems ridiculous to say they do. They just buy them, (or the studio does?) and choose the drum beat, they don't write the drum beat, they don't play the drum beat, they just... choose it, and the machine plays it. That doesn't take musicianship or talent, it takes 1 finger.

Now, granted, I've never used a drum machine, I can't be too sure that's the entire process of using one, but I DO know, that it basically does all the work for you.

As a composer, whether you're like me and you use standard notation, or you prefer tabs or even sequencing, that takes talent and musicianship. To be good anyway. While we are just writing out the music, we have to know what we're doing, you can't just write random crap. It takes at least a small level of understanding music.

Actually, nevermind, that's going down a different path other than the one you brought up.

True, you don't have to be able to play an instrument to create  music. For example, I can't play the violin, it doesn't mean I don't know how to write music for it. The use of a drum machine is not the same as composing on a computer, you don't have to know anything about music to use one efficiently, yet to write music well, you need a general understanding at the very least.

Agh, I'm doing several things at once here. I'm not able to think very clearly at the moment, but hopefully you get what I'm trying to say.

Your "lack of melody = not music" argument is something we can just agree to disagree on. However, I noted that you mentioned how the use of drum machines meant there was hardly any musicianship. You don't have to play any instruments whatsoever to create music, which is why I'm confused why you, as a composer, would say something like that.

This isn't exactly the conversation I expected to find here. I'm way to lazy to find out what the debate is about, but just from this statement I'd have to say I agree with Zypher.

Meh, the term 'music' was a vocabulary created by humans anyhow. And like all terms, things evolve and change and differ in their meaning from person to person as from time to time. So imo there's no set definition for such matters.

And to those that disregard rap as music (I myself am not a fan of it neither by the way); society has labeled it as music and hence it is music in that sense. Sure there are compelling arguments here and there, but in cases like this what can be argued for does not really matter at all. There are those who enjoy it, and they call it 'music'; then it is music to them.


Edit: How'd you guys manage to get off-topic to this anyhow~

I'm still trying to figure out part of Zypher's comment, as I never said you had to play an instrument to create music. My point was clearly about how rap isn't music - it isn't exactly rocket science.

It doesn't matter, if you like rap, it's likely you'll take offense from someone commenting about it not being music and completely ignore all logic that suggests it isn't. And if you don't like it, it's likely you'll just agree because you don't like it.

It's hard to have an intelligent debate with people who don't quite understand...

No matter what I say here, it's going to sound as though I'm putting myself above other people, simply because I know about music theory and so on, and thus my comments actually making it seem like I'm narrow minded about music, which is definately not true.

Also I'm straining to see how you can view something without melody to be music. It has to have melody. The melody may be beautiful, or even very dissinent, but either way, it's melody. There's no way around it. That's what a song is. Maybe that's where everyone is getting confused; maybe they view melody as something that has to be catchy, or pretty, or whatever, but this isn't always the case.

Meh, none of this matters, I can see you're not changing your mind, just as I'm not changing mine.

Reives, you posted while I was typing ~ That's basically what I had said before, it's been labelled as music, thus there is no changing it. Yet, your first sentence is insignificant, all terms are created by humans.  I know what you mean though, heh. But the point I'm making is, you can like rap, and yes it is art, but it lacks musical quality and elements, sans the exceptions to this generalization as stated earlier.

Heheh, well I guess my intended point for stating the creational nature of the term was that creations change. And as society evolve, not only will things like this be labeled as one; but as time goes on the actual literal meaning will most likely come to include it as well.

I'm pretty sure heavy metal or even just rock would be seen as noise rather than music back in the classical period; to the majority at least. 'Revolutions' happen, even when it's not accepted by many.


I can definitely see where you are coming from though. Morally, I share your view completely. But realistically speaking my comprehensions are numb and harsh.

(Gotta go now, 2:00 already I'll have to make up for all the sleep lost when I get outta college.)

I'm pretty sure heavy metal or even just rock would be seen as noise rather than music back in the classical period; to the majority at least. 'Revolutions' happen, even when it's not accepted by many.

The same can be said for the "oldies" (50s rock), and, up until the Romantic period), jazz, and nearly all music from the early 1900s and on, even the new symphonies that are being today.

I actually thought I had mentioned this earlier, but it's apparent I didn't. Oh well, I'm done with this topic. >_>