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Jesus - Man or Myth?

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Hey, here's a little question for you, why can Jesus walk on water?

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Nobody said he can. It's a translation mistake. It should've been "net to the water".

Not that I am basing this on anything...and this isn't the first I've heard of this...I doubt that that is actually true.

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No wonder, I've posted that at least 3 times on the forums now. (-_-')
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I'm sorry, but the answer is....
because shit floats.

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But he DID NOT walk over the water. He walked next to it. ::)
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No he didn't he walked on glass, he didn't heal sick peaple he told them to pretend to be sick, he was just the first magician

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I'm sorry, but the answer is....
because shit floats.
<3  http://loljesus.com/category/perverted/


But he DID NOT walk over the water. He walked next to it. ::)
Your right, he didn't walk on water, it was a mistranslation, because Jesus never existed.

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You have the proof he never did? Show me. =P

@Link: Let's not exaggarate it. That's the stuff he did. And now stop talking intelligent in spam OR I WILL BE FORCED TO MOVE THIS TOPIC TO INTELLIGENT DEBATE! >:(

(lolz~)
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You have the proof he never did? Show me. =P
Actually it's the job of the person with accusation to prove what they're saying, your the one with the wild stories, how about you try showing some evidence of his existence past the bible ( which has been shown as a horrible source of history )?

There isn't one documented and backed history location or mention of Jesus out side of his little black book, I have no problem believing that he was past a faerie tale, but you better show me some reliable showings first.

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How about you just prove me the entire human history? Then we're done with this matter. When you can prove that history is 100% accurate, I will prove you Jesus 100% accurate. =P
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Oh, so sad Blizz, you can't even come up with one? You should know being an educated man that Jesus will never be recognized as an existing person without more evidence past the bible. After all, I'm afraid science needs more then faith to believe in some thing as being real. =)

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Nothing in human history ican be taken for sure. A good example is what's taught in school. I was taught that the assholes American did this and that, while in U.S. the children are taught how they honorly did this and that. See my point? Half of the history could have easily been made up. =(
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EDIT: You changed your post... Cheap shot. Check the time of this quote, it is different then the first time this was mentioned. This was a reply to the previous post, which has now been changed or deleted. I was replying to blizzard repeating this statement and saying that they have recently discovered that certain men of history that we believed to have existed have recently been proven to not have.

How about you just prove me the entire human history?
Proving the history of the entire length of humanity is not in the same field, nor is it related to showing evidence of one man. It's a cheap, poorly used question by a Christian backed in a corner, just like "you can't prove he didn't exist!". I'm not saying he didn't exist, I'm just saying without enough evidence to show that he was a real figure of history then I will believe the most likely option shown by the current evidence, and that is: There was never a man named Jesus who claimed to be born of a virgin.

Using cheap throws won't win you this one Blizz.

Edit to your reply: Then your telling us to believe in a man who has even less evidence then some other men who we had plenty of yet we now know don't exist? Your not making any sense I'm afraid, if that is the case then we would need more evidence to take the likely hood of a man of olds existence. Your attacking your own side.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2007, 02:38:26 PM by Deliciously_Saucy »

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Adventures of black Jesus, boondocks. I felt I needed to do something to stop this from being intelligent.  Lets just say that Jesus doesn't exist, and leave it at that.

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Why not just say he did? That would solve the matter as well.

@Saucy: Without enough evidence that he didn't exist you have no right attacking my faith and beliefs. Ok, then only prove me that Caesar existed, only one man, not the entire human history.

Let's turn this game around. You BELIEVE he doesn't exist. Prove your beliefs.
I don't say he DID exist, I believe he existed, because I have my reasons to do so. Because life has shit on you, doesn't make him not exist. Because you don't believe in him anymore doesn't make him not exist. It's easy to blame somebody else, it really is. So tell me, can you still hear his voice? Can you hear him calling for you?

(I gotta go now, can somebody split this thread? (^__^') )
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Nothing in human history ican be taken for sure. A good example is what's taught in school. I was taught that the assholes American did this and that, while in U.S. the children are taught how they honorly did this and that. See my point? Half of the history could have easily been made up. =(

Haha what. You basically just gave an answer that does way more damage to your (religious) side of the argument?
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I seriously doubt 12 men would have given their life for a lie.
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Let's turn this game around. You BELIEVE he doesn't exist. Prove your beliefs.

He did it again? Lol another one: ATEHISM IS A BELEIF!

Atheism is a lack of beleif =o If it isn't, then I'm not an atheist.

I seriously doubt 12 men would have given their life for a lie.

Just a few days ago in a zoo in the UK, a guy lowered himself into a LION'S DEN, shouting "GOD WILL SAVE ME". He was ripped to shreds within a minute :tpg:
« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 11:12:46 PM by Silverline »
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I seriously doubt 12 men would have given their life for a lie.
You might want to edit that part out. Besides, I'm sure it's more in the tens of thousands of people that have died for a certain lie ^.~

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Why not just say he did? That would solve the matter as well.
Because we are here to uncover truth, not extend a lie ( either way mind you ).

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@Saucy: Without enough evidence that he didn't exist you have no right attacking my faith and beliefs.
Actually I do, as you are stating he was a real figure of history. I have full right to ask for proof of this. I don't have a problem with anyones faith, but if Christians want Jesus to be shown as a "real little boy" then they better damn well better be able to back it.

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Ok, then only prove me that Caesar existed, only one man, not the entire human history.
Again, more poor choices. Which Caesar..? You know that word means 'King' don't you?

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Let's turn this game around. You BELIEVE he doesn't exist. Prove your beliefs.
I've already stated, it's not the job of science ( or me ) to disprove every theory that comes in its face, it's the job of the presenter to show evidence, other wise no one would ever get any real work done. Quite frankly my evidence that he didn't exist, is lack of evidence that he did. It just seems odd that he isn't mention in one ( known ) place outside of the bible, no?

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I don't say he DID exist, I believe he existed, because I have my reasons to do so. Because life has shit on you, doesn't make him not exist. Because you don't believe in him anymore doesn't make him not exist.
No, but lack of evidence does give me a reason not to believe. Oh, and my life has actually been very good to me.

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It's easy to blame somebody else, it really is. So tell me, can you still hear his voice? Can you hear him calling for you?
Blame some one else for what? No, no I can't hear his voice, what is he saying? If I did mind you, well we have a different story don't we? If he did speak to me I would assume some type of latent schizophrenia had emerged and have myself committed.

Oh, don't get so personal, this is a debate, you look like you can't handle it.

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He did it again? Lol another one: ATEHISM IS A BELEIF!

Atheism is a lack of beleif =o If it isn't, then I'm not an atheist.

You believe that there is no God, you don't know it. By definition this makes atheism a belief.

Just a few days ago in a zoo in the UK, a guy lowered himself into a LION'S DEN, shouting "GOD WILL SAVE ME". He was ripped to shreds within a minute :tpg:

Was he traveling with Jesus 2000 years ago as well?

thousands of people that have died for a certain lie ^.~

Were at least they traveling with Jesus 2000 years ago?

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Why not just say he did? That would solve the matter as well.
Because we are here to uncover truth, not extend a lie ( either way mind you ).

Who said it's a lie? You can't prove it to be a lie.

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@Saucy: Without enough evidence that he didn't exist you have no right attacking my faith and beliefs.
Actually I do, as you are stating he was a real figure of history. I have full right to ask for proof of this. I don't have a problem with anyones faith, but if Christians want Jesus to be shown as a "real little boy" then they better damn well better be able to back it.

Then ask for proof. Nobody will give it to you, but sure, you can ask. You fail to see my point here, I'll explain it further below.

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Ok, then only prove me that Caesar existed, only one man, not the entire human history.
Again, more poor choices. Which Caesar..? You know that word means 'King' don't you?

Sure I do. I mean the one who was really called Caesar, the one who lived about half a century before "Jesus was born".

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Let's turn this game around. You BELIEVE he doesn't exist. Prove your beliefs.
I've already stated, it's not the job of science ( or me ) to disprove every theory that comes in its face, it's the job of the presenter to show evidence, other wise no one would ever get any real work done. Quite frankly my evidence that he didn't exist, is lack of evidence that he did. It just seems odd that he isn't mention in one ( known ) place outside of the bible, no?

Well, he was executed like a criminal. Are there records of criminals everywhere else? Also you say he's only mentioned in the Bible. I'll explain what I think about that further below as well.

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I don't say he DID exist, I believe he existed, because I have my reasons to do so. Because life has shit on you, doesn't make him not exist. Because you don't believe in him anymore doesn't make him not exist.
No, but lack of evidence does give me a reason not to believe. Oh, and my life has actually been very good to me.

You told me different last time. You said it was "a tragic event" that made you finally lose your faith. That's what I meant.

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It's easy to blame somebody else, it really is. So tell me, can you still hear his voice? Can you hear him calling for you?
Blame some one else for what? No, no I can't hear his voice, what is he saying? If I did mind you, well we have a different story don't we? If he did speak to me I would assume some type of latent schizophrenia had emerged and have myself committed.

Lol, you fail to see my point again. (-_-') Of course I didn't mean that LITERALLY. You atheists always have to take things literally. You guys tend to get like that when you get backed in a corner. ;)
Now to the part with God. So, let's forget all what we know about God, Jesus, etc. It is WELL KNOWN that energy cannot be created nor destroyed. So we couldn't have just started to exist without any special reason. Obviously there IS something that created everything. Well, this is what I call God. You have a problem with that? Want me to prove it? Simple:
We are here and we DO exist. If we don't then I wouldn't even bother explaining. Since we could not just start to exist there HAS TO be an origin. End of story. I don't care how we were created, I don't care when we were created, I don't care by whom we were created, I don't even care if the creator still exists. The point it that there is one. And I pay my damn respect to my creator by at least praying every night even if he isn't there. When my parents die one day, I will go to their grave and I will talk to them as well and pay my respect. That's why I Believe. There IS or WAS something that created us all.
I don't care what the Bible says in this matter, I don't care what people say in this matter. By all logical means there is a God. Even if it's maybe far from what the Bible teaches, there has to be one. We all wouldn't exist if there is none.
Now, why I accept the Bible and Jesus in general is a different story. Whether Jesus exited or not, this wouldn't make any difference today. We don't know, we never will. Jesus' principles are what gives life a sense. For one thing it's the stuff with having a sould and hell and heaven, blahblah. EVEN IF all of that is just made up, I would rather enjoy my life by being a good person than just killing of myself. I mean, what's the point of life if there is nothing beyond?! Let's just go and kill us all, it's pointless to live anyway.

Oh, don't get so personal, this is a debate, you look like you can't handle it.

Well, you were the first one who said "He doesn't exists. Your belief and faith is void." Attack religions as much as you want, I don't care. I was merely stating out that is was a translation mistake and you have to go all over the way "You're dumb to believe he existed. He never did.". If you didn't notice you were attacking me first. I think if you have a problem with religion, you don't have to take it out on me. I mean, c'mon, you started a debate in spam. ::)

@alr: Read the part above to see why it got intelligent debate.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2007, 11:34:27 AM by Blizzard »
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You believe that there is no God, you don't know it. By definition this makes atheism a belief.


Check the actual definition, it has nothing to do with a "belief" in no god(s), it has to do with because there is a lack of evidence in one, the idea isn't worth entertaining. Atheism is built on believing in things with factual, evident surrounds and dismissing things that do not have such.

I promise you that the majority of Atheist would get on their knees and start worshiping with real proof. Honestly.
You obviously believe in the second coming of Jesus to at least some extent, no? Then how will you know that it is really Jesus? I assume that he will have to preform miracles, and heal the sick, no? With that being said, then let me ask you a question: Why can't you just believe..?

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Was he traveling with Jesus 2000 years ago as well?

No, but he was going on teachings that where 2000 years old =)

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Were at least they traveling with Jesus 2000 years ago?

Ditto.

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Because we are here to uncover truth, not extend a lie ( either way mind you )
.

Who said it's a lie? You can't prove it to be a lie.


I'm not arrogant, and I'm willing to admit all possibilities. With balance of evidence I would even believe in your god, but you really have no more evidence then Buddhists, who happen to be much more peaceful.

Oh and that again, really was pointless. It's impossible to disprove a negative, i.e: You can't disprove Santa Clause, but do you believe in him? Oh and please tell me why you don't believe in him. ( if your going to reply to only one question, this would be the one ).

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Then ask for proof. Nobody will give it to you, but sure, you can ask.

Yes, that is one difficulty of proving a mans existence, handing up the evidence...

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Sure I do. I mean the one who was really called Caesar, the one who lived about half a century before "Jesus was born".

Well he has more then one group of people saying he exists... That's one up on him.

But the last time I checked, I wasn't the one who claimed he existed, nor are we debating that.

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Well, he was executed like a criminal. Are there records of criminals everywhere else? Also you say he's only mentioned in the Bible. I'll explain what I think about that further below as well.

Well if these records exist, and they have been authenticated, then please link them up for me.

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You told me different last time. You said it was "a tragic event" that made you finally lose your faith. That's what I meant.

You have a bad memory my friend, please check your records. I said to you that before the end of my belief I had some crazy notions about my faith because of the introduction of science and religion, in other words I was trying to rationally think out and dissect my belief. I came to the conclusion that the only possibility that made sense with out irrationality was the non-existence of god.

I actually feel that people who stop believing due to a tragedy have no right to call them selves Atheistic, unless of course their now lack of faith tells them to gain the knowledge to understand.

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Lol, you fail to see my point again. (-_-') Of course I didn't mean that LITERALLY. You atheists always have to take things literally. You guys tend to get like that when you get backed in a corner. Wink


Then please tell me how I was meant to take that.

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Now to the part with God. So, let's forget all what we know about God, Jesus, etc. It is WELL KNOWN that energy cannot be created nor destroyed. So we couldn't have just started to exist without any special reason.

Obviously, so the conclusion is that the energy has always existed, and why that is not a god will be explained further down.

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Obviously there IS something that created everything. Well, this is what I call God. You have a problem with that?

Yes I do. Why add in one step to the mix? The next obvious question to ask would be "then who created god?", but I already know your answer, that being "it always existed". So let me ask you, if it's not so improbably that something can "always" exist, then why wouldn't it be possible for just energy to have always existed? There is no need to add a creator to the mix when it is not necessary, especially a personal one.

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We are here and we DO exist. If we don't then I wouldn't even bother explaining. Since we could not just start to exist there HAS TO be an origin. End of story. I don't care how we were created, I don't care when we were created, I don't care by whom we were created, I don't even care if the creator still exists. The point it that there is one. And I pay my damn respect to my creator by at least praying every night even if he isn't there. When my parents die one day, I will go to their grave and I will talk to them as well and pay my respect. That's why I Believe. There IS or WAS something that created us all.
I don't care what the Bible says in this matter, I don't care what people say in this matter. By all logical means there is a God. Even if it's maybe far from what the Bible teaches, there has to be one. We all wouldn't exist if there is none.


Alright, then now would be the correct time to ask, who created your god if you don't have the empathic Christian views..? You do realise that the reason why a timeless being couldn't be self aware would be because the origin of life, yes something without time, would have to be a simple equation..? I always heavily studied specific points when I believed, one of those main points would be "how could god have always existed?", not pondering the possibility of something always being, but the possibility that it would be quite difficult for a self aware entity to have "always" existed. Let's try this one:
 
How far back can god remember in time?

Alright, if time is meaningless to a god, could it have separated thought?

If so then it must of had a "first" thought, right?

Well obviously not... Then perhaps god thinks, and is as one, time literally is nothing and non-existent ( or was ) to him. If this is the case, and it would have to be if god has no separate thought, which would obviously debunk agelessness if he did, because things have memory of separate thought. Then, can god separate time flowing?

If so, how? If a god doesn't have separate thoughts and exists beyond time then how could he differentiate between passing moments in order to create without having the ability of time, there fore have separate thought? Even if it created time, then it would still need a way to differentiate between it.

If so, then that separate thought would show the difference in time passing, that would have to have some sort of effect were time is actually meaningless, no? Also that would mean that god would have memories and a past and present, destroying what it essentially was, in fact this would mean it changed, something omnipotence doesn't do.

An omnipotent, timeless being is an impossibility if it were self aware as well. If there was an omnipotent being then it evolved from a timeless existence, a simple, stupid existence. Only non-intelligence can be timeless...


If your only reply is going to be, "you can't think in the mind of a god", then don't waste your time.

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Now, why I accept the Bible and Jesus in general is a different story. Whether Jesus exited or not, this wouldn't make any difference today. We don't know, we never will. Jesus' principles are what gives life a sense. For one thing it's the stuff with having a sould and hell and heaven, blahblah. EVEN IF all of that is just made up, I would rather enjoy my life by being a good person than just killing of myself. I mean, what's the point of life if there is nothing beyond?! Let's just go and kill us all, it's pointless to live anyway.

I enjoy my life quite profusely, I feel better now then I did as a Christian, I even feel better now then when I believed I would live forever in heaven! Life has plenty of meaning, and we don't need an afterlife to be immortal, we live through history and what we make of our existence.

I don't see why a god is necessary for man to conceive of its origins, as I'm afraid the simplest explanation is often the correct. The simpler explanation being we evolved ( evolved as in "changed" ) from something very simple and ageless. Possibly parallel universes. I would link up some recourses, but this is not something I put my faith in or currently believe. It's simply a more "simple", logical explanation ( compared to a creator ).

As to why this created, omnipotent thing wouldn't be called a "god": Because it is an evolved, living being. Giving an alien the title of god would be the thing a non-understanding society would give it. If this being did exist by the way, and if it did create us, it would certainly not interfere with us on any level past observation, it would also have had to have been un-omnipotent at the time as an all knowing being would have no reason to create. In fact an omnipotent being would in some way or anther "end" its self having nothing left to learn. Mind you, the idea of actual, factual omnipotents is another impossibility.



When I was Christian, I said, knew and told that I didn't have full faith in my god ( just like you ), and was told many reasons as to why this was ( one of them Satan, of course ) I was also told that everyone at one stage or another in their lives went through the same thing. But as soon as I finally allowed myself to let go, it was like the clouds clearing, and ( while not at first ) I have never had the same amount of sureness in what I believe then I had ever had in Theism. In the weakest times of my doubt in Atheism, I am still stronger in my beliefs then I when was with Christianity.

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Well, you were the first one who said "He doesn't exists. Your belief and faith is void."

I said the first, but don't put words in my mouth. I was saying that Jesus the Christ does not have enough evidence to validate his existence in a non-biased historical, scientific way. That's what faith is, no? Believing "just because"? If it wasn't, then it would be called "science".

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Attack religions as much as you want, I don't care. I was merely stating out that is was a translation mistake and you have to go all over the way "You're dumb to believe he existed. He never did.". If you didn't notice you were attacking me first.

Ever thought that your attacking my beliefs..? You also replied did you not, meaning that you wanted to defend your faith and prove me wrong... If this wasn't the case, then you would have said nothing to what I had posted. Don't try to claim the high ground, you have dirt on your clothes as well.

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I think if you have a problem with religion, you don't have to take it out on me. I mean, c'mon, you started a debate in spam. Roll Eyes

I'm not taking this "out on you", I'm debating with you, I enjoy it and I certainly won't think one thing less of you because of this or what you have said, if anything I now like you more :).

Oh, I started this in spam because the intelligent debate section is in a stage of drought.

Edit: I see it's been moved...
 

« Last Edit: March 15, 2007, 02:06:19 PM by Deliciously_Saucy »

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Nothing in human history ican be taken for sure. A good example is what's taught in school. I was taught that the assholes American did this and that, while in U.S. the children are taught how they honorly did this and that. See my point? Half of the history could have easily been made up. =(
Funny, I don't remember this being said the first time... I have edited into my post below it what I was actually replying to.

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Holy shit. Deliciously_Saucy, you are my god.
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I'm tempted to say "you go girl!" but, its in intelligent debate.  Continue to amaze people, DS.

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You believe that there is no God, you don't know it. By definition this makes atheism a belief.


Check the actual definition, it has nothing to do with a "belief" in no god(s), it has to do with because there is a lack of evidence in one, the idea isn't worth entertaining. Atheism is built on believing in things with factual, evident surrounds and dismissing things that do not have such.

Well, ACTUALLY we're both not wright and not wrong. It's just undefined. =/ I just checked wiki and it says there is still the debate going on whether it is a belief or not. Could be a matter of personal taste? ?_? I mean like in "What do I think of me as an atheist? Do I believe in that or...?".

You obviously believe in the second coming of Jesus to at least some extent, no? Then how will you know that it is really Jesus? I assume that he will have to preform miracles, and heal the sick, no? With that being said, then let me ask you a question: Why can't you just believe..?

First off the second coming of Jesus has nothing to do with the "Real World". This might only mean, we're all gonna die someday. I don't know. In the Bible he said something like we would recognise it's him and stuff. My best guess is to just trust in those words. Maybe it even means something completely different. Maybe the second coming of Jesus is individual for every person. Could it be death then and meeting him? I don't know.

No, but he was going on teachings that where 2000 years old =)

Well, I was talking about 12 men who actually WERE traveling with Jesus. Or let me rephrase it, since you believe he never existed.
12 men making up a lie and giving their lives for it? 12 men who have never met before? Those 12 men are not the same as one who just HEARD of Jesus, even if they made it up. That means whether there was a Jesus or not, those 12 guys DID know the truth behind it.

I'm not arrogant, and I'm willing to admit all possibilities. With balance of evidence I would even believe in your god, but you really have no more evidence then Buddhists, who happen to be much more peaceful.

In Buddism there is as good as no mentioning of a god if you didn't know. If you're admitting all possibilities nd would believe with evidence... Well, that's not belief anymore. But I know what you are trying to say, no need to reply to this part.

Oh and that again, really was pointless. It's impossible to disprove a negative, i.e: You can't disprove Santa Clause, but do you believe in him? Oh and please tell me why you don't believe in him. ( if your going to reply to only one question, this would be the one ).

You just said, you would admit all possibilities. =P

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Then ask for proof. Nobody will give it to you, but sure, you can ask.
Yes, that is one difficulty of proving a mans existence, handing up the evidence...

How can I be sure that everything around me is real? How can I be sure that everything exists? I am here, I do exist. I think, so I am. But everything else? It can be an illusion, it doesn't have to. =/ All I can do is believe. Hey, maybe it's me who's unreal, it might be only you who's real. But for me, I am real. Are you real?

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Sure I do. I mean the one who was really called Caesar, the one who lived about half a century before "Jesus was born".

Well he has more then one group of people saying he exists... That's one up on him.

But the last time I checked, I wasn't the one who claimed he existed, nor are we debating that.

I am only trying to say it's hard to 100% prove the past. Sure, you can give an ammount number of evidence, but that doesn't make it 100% fact. And there are not only 12 guys who witnessed Jesus.

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Well, he was executed like a criminal. Are there records of criminals everywhere else? Also you say he's only mentioned in the Bible. I'll explain what I think about that further below as well.

Well if these records exist, and they have been authenticated, then please link them up for me.

There are none, that's what I was trying to say. No "record" except for the Bible.

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You told me different last time. You said it was "a tragic event" that made you finally lose your faith. That's what I meant.

You have a bad memory my friend, please check your records. I said to you that before the end of my belief I had some crazy notions about my faith because of the introduction of science and religion, in other words I was trying to rationally think out and dissect my belief. I came to the conclusion that the only possibility that made sense with out irrationality was the non-existence of god.

I actually feel that people who stop believing due to a tragedy have no right to call them selves Atheistic, unless of course their now lack of faith tells them to gain the knowledge to understand.

Alright, my bad, I kinda misunderstood then. I thought the "tragic event" was the overwhelming part.

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Lol, you fail to see my point again. (-_-') Of course I didn't mean that LITERALLY. You atheists always have to take things literally. You guys tend to get like that when you get backed in a corner. Wink


Then please tell me how I was meant to take that.

Maybe you just don't want to see the answer. ;) It's in the quotes just below.

Obviously, so the conclusion is that the energy has always existed, and why that is not a god will be explained further down.

Why is it obvious that it always existed. You want to say time and space have always existed? Sorry, but this doesn't make sense at all. Especially because time is "going only into one direction" and never repeats. Time and space don't exist for eternity. Time is a limitation of eternity, therefore it can't be eternal.

Yes I do.

That your problem then, not mine. So why are you annoying me with it? I'm not annoying with my problems about atheism either.

Why add in one step to the mix? The next obvious question to ask would be "then who created god?", but I already know your answer, that being "it always existed". So let me ask you, if it's not so improbably that something can "always" exist, then why wouldn't it be possible for just energy to have always existed? There is no need to add a creator to the mix when it is not necessary, especially a personal one.

Time is the only limit of eternity (as I said above). If God created time, he set a limit. If he was existing outside of this limit he "always existed". Simple as that. I already said, it doesn't have to be a personal one. I don't know what or who God is.

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We are here and we DO exist. If we don't then I wouldn't even bother explaining. Since we could not just start to exist there HAS TO be an origin. End of story. I don't care how we were created, I don't care when we were created, I don't care by whom we were created, I don't even care if the creator still exists. The point it that there is one. And I pay my damn respect to my creator by at least praying every night even if he isn't there. When my parents die one day, I will go to their grave and I will talk to them as well and pay my respect. That's why I Believe. There IS or WAS something that created us all.
I don't care what the Bible says in this matter, I don't care what people say in this matter. By all logical means there is a God. Even if it's maybe far from what the Bible teaches, there has to be one. We all wouldn't exist if there is none.


Alright, then now would be the correct time to ask, who created your god if you don't have the empathic Christian views..? You do realise that the reason why a timeless being couldn't be self aware would be because the origin of life, yes something without time, would have to be a simple equation..? I always heavily studied specific points when I believed, one of those main points would be "how could god have always existed?", not pondering the possibility of something always being, but the possibility that it would be quite difficult for a self aware entity to have "always" existed. Let's try this one:
 
How far back can god remember in time?

Normal Christians are short-sighted. Read the part before for the rest. And I think if there was no time and space, there is nothing to remember back, since remembering is something that is only possible within time. You can't remember this moment right now or something that hasn't happened yet.

Alright, if time is meaningless to a god, could it have separated thought?

If so then it must of had a "first" thought, right?

Well obviously not... Then perhaps god thinks, and is as one, time literally is nothing and non-existent ( or was ) to him. If this is the case, and it would have to be if god has no separate thought, which would obviously debunk agelessness if he did, because things have memory of separate thought. Then, can god separate time flowing?

If so, how? If a god doesn't have separate thoughts and exists beyond time then how could he differentiate between passing moments in order to create without having the ability of time, there fore have separate thought? Even if it created time, then it would still need a way to differentiate between it.

If so, then that separate thought would show the difference in time passing, that would have to have some sort of effect were time is actually meaningless, no? Also that would mean that god would have memories and a past and present, destroying what it essentially was, in fact this would mean it changed, something omnipotence doesn't do.

An omnipotent, timeless being is an impossibility if it were self aware as well. If there was an omnipotent being then it evolved from a timeless existence, a simple, stupid existence. Only non-intelligence can be timeless...

I told you, I don't know how, I don't know "when", I don't why and I don't know who. I'm just human. But obviously there is something or someone. I don't know what God thought, I don't know if he even could think. It's a very similiar relation like people creating virtual reality. You think the guys within REALLY knew who created them if they weren't told that by the creator?

If your only reply is going to be, "you can't think in the mind of a god", then don't waste your time.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha! That's a good one. What is "god" by definition to you?! For me, it's the origin of all.

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Now, why I accept the Bible and Jesus in general is a different story. Whether Jesus exited or not, this wouldn't make any difference today. We don't know, we never will. Jesus' principles are what gives life a sense. For one thing it's the stuff with having a sould and hell and heaven, blahblah. EVEN IF all of that is just made up, I would rather enjoy my life by being a good person than just killing of myself. I mean, what's the point of life if there is nothing beyond?! Let's just go and kill us all, it's pointless to live anyway.

I enjoy my life quite profusely, I feel better now then I did as a Christian, I even feel better now then when I believed I would live forever in heaven! Life has plenty of meaning, and we don't need an afterlife to be immortal, we live through history and what we make of our existence.

Then it's pointless. If there is not goal to reach, it's pointless to go towards it, since... well, there is nothing you could go towards to... And yeah, you have money, you couldn't care less.

I don't see why a god is necessary for man to conceive of its origins

God is the definition of origin, he isn't necessary to explain origin. Religion is used to bring origin closer, science to explain it. Well, we didn't get so far with science so far, lol!

The simpler explanation being we evolved ( evolved as in "changed" ) from something very simple and ageless. Possibly parallel universes. I would link up some recourses, but this is not something I put my faith in or currently believe. It's simply a more "simple", logical explanation ( compared to a creator ).

Who created the parallel universes then? If parallel universes just start to exist by "splitting up" from an already existent universe, the allover energy is doubled. Again, non-sense. Well, on the other hand, God is supposed to be omnipotent. O_o If he IS energy, I guess he can do whatever he wants if he wants, etc.

As to why this created, omnipotent thing wouldn't be called a "god": Because it is an evolved, living being. Giving an alien the title of god would be the thing a non-understanding society would give it. If this being did exist by the way, and if it did create us, it would certainly not interfere with us on any level past observation, it would also have had to have been un-omnipotent at the time as an all knowing being would have no reason to create. In fact an omnipotent being would in some way or anther "end" its self having nothing left to learn. Mind you, the idea of actual, factual omnipotents is another impossibility.

Ok, one more time: I DO NOT KNOW WHAT GOD IS, I DO NOT KNOW HOW GOD DID IT. Creator is God, no matter who Creator is. An alien can't be God, because the alien was created by God as well. There is/was one universal God. Everything has a start and an ending within time. Since time had to have a start as well, there has to be something outside of time that actually "started" time. Since God is outside of time, he can't "end".

When I was Christian, I said, knew and told that I didn't have full faith in my god ( just like you ), and was told many reasons as to why this was ( one of them Satan, of course ) I was also told that everyone at one stage or another in their lives went through the same thing. But as soon as I finally allowed myself to let go, it was like the clouds clearing, and ( while not at first ) I have never had the same amount of sureness in what I believe then I had ever had in Theism. In the weakest times of my doubt in Atheism, I am still stronger in my beliefs then I when was with Christianity.

What, you afraid of Satan? Yes, then it's easier not to believe in God as well. Yeah, I guess you're just weak in faith, just like you said.
In my case I am more afraid to what would happen if there is a God and I let my just human mind let me guide the wrong way. I'll rather stick to the idea, since I like it more anyway. If you would know my true psychological state, you would know that's the only thing to keep me alive...

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Well, you were the first one who said "He doesn't exists. Your belief and faith is void."

I said the first, but don't put words in my mouth. I was saying that Jesus the Christ does not have enough evidence to validate his existence in a non-biased historical, scientific way. That's what faith is, no? Believing "just because"? If it wasn't, then it would be called "science".

No, I said "It was a translation mistake.". You said "Yes, because he didn't exist. *wink*" Those were your words. If you're clearing it up here, fine, but don't expect me to interprete sentences with quite a double meaning like you meant them.

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Attack religions as much as you want, I don't care. I was merely stating out that is was a translation mistake and you have to go all over the way "You're dumb to believe he existed. He never did.". If you didn't notice you were attacking me first.

Ever thought that your attacking my beliefs..?

I said "It was a translation mistake.". How was I first attacking your belief?!

And you just said, Atheism is belief.

You also replied did you not, meaning that you wanted to defend your faith and prove me wrong... If this wasn't the case, then you would have said nothing to what I had posted. Don't try to claim the high ground, you have dirt on your clothes as well.

Defending my faith doesn't include proving you wrong. I'm not intending in proving your wrong, I'm intending in defending my faith.

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I think if you have a problem with religion, you don't have to take it out on me. I mean, c'mon, you started a debate in spam. Roll Eyes

I'm not taking this "out on you", I'm debating with you, I enjoy it and I certainly won't think one thing less of you because of this or what you have said, if anything I now like you more :).

Currently yes, you are. You're doing both, lol. Just like I could have just ignored your statement, you could have ignored mine first, since I was posting first merely stating a fact.

Oh, I started this in spam because the intelligent debate section is in a stage of drought.
Edit: I see it's been moved...

Yeah. I said, somebody should split the topic, because I had to leave. When I was back, nobody has done it yet, so I did.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2007, 07:00:47 PM by Blizzard »
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