Separation of Church and State.

@1st - It's saying that if you accept our money you CAN NOT be a Christian school. I know this is a minor example.

That's because it would be showing favor to a religion if they funded a Christian school. If they gave fundings to one religion, they would really have to fund them all if they didn't want to look like dictators. A very bad financial move.

Another example.
You can't publically display a Nativity Scene, unless you have things pertaining to other holidays put up. But of course you're allowed to publically display any of the other things by themselves. Once again, I know this is a minor example, but it should get the point across.

But it doesn't. I'm heavily offended by religious themes in public areas. How could it be it be, or why should the government persecute the rights of minorities? It doesn't do any good what so ever for a country to participate in religious matters of any kind. They should stick to the actual problems and try to run a successful land, NOT save my soul from damnation.

Where in the constituion does it say there can be NO religion in state?

Does it have to? Again, a country doesn't need religious leaders for it to be prosperous and healthy. Religion can be used as a tool to gain votes, but that's its only real use in the world of politics. We should be stepping froward, you can have a Christian nation without Christian leaders...

Oh and Gilgamesh was joking... Sort of... ...

Not only sort of. It's just his kind of humor, lol!

But it doesn't. I'm heavily offended by religious themes in public areas. How could it be it be, or why should the government persecute the rights of minorities? It doesn't do any good what so ever for a country to participate in religious matters of any kind.

Basic human rights.

They should stick to the actual problems and try to run a successful land, NOT save my soul from damnation.

What point does it have if you're living your life and go to hell after that? So like, 70, 80 and whatsoever years of life and you're doomed? "So, ok let's just go steal and kill, who cares. I'll get myself a wealth, give a shit about the rest of the world and live a good life and laugh at all the idiots who believe I'm going to hell. I'll just have a nice life, since it's gonna end quickly." I think religion is fine where it is now. If not good for anything, at least bringing in some order. I forgot who said it, but he's right if I like it or not:

"If God wouldn't exist, it would be a good idea to invent him."

Does it have to? Again, a country doesn't need religious leaders for it to be prosperous and healthy. Religion can be used as a tool to gain votes, but that's its only real use in the world of politics.

I totally agree with that.

We should be stepping froward, you can have a Christian nation without Christian leaders...

I don't know how good or bad this would be, but I get your point. I know what you mean in context with the quote before.

Seriously, you were taking my words out of context, copying uncomplete sentences and commenting on them with stupid replies, trying to belittle my arguments by asking me to explain things which are obvious to a 5 year old.

Example:

every animal knows how to survive, they find food and they build nests, but humans somehow fucked that up too,

We did?? Yeh I guess that roof over my head and that pasta I just ate was me fucking up survival. Rephrase your question.

we lack the capacity to understand even the simplest things like how not to die.

Wtf? Are you talking about gaining immortality? If your not, the last time I checked I know I was alive, and so was my neighbor. Animals kill each other too, just on a smaller scale because there's less of them.

Obviously my point is:
Animals + Nature = Symbiotic existance
Humans + Nature = Everything dies

I meant: C'mon, you don't really believe God is some old guy sitting on a cloud?!

Of course not, I was ridiculing the religion and trying to get the message across that even something as stupid as an old man on a cloud is more beliveable than evolution.

"Energy can't disappear or be created, it only changes from one form into another".

Yes, I'm familiar with the first law of thermo-dynamics and the concepts of the Conservation of Matter and Energy.

You're jumping over to philosophy. People tend to quench their thirst for knowledge, but you're saying here they haven't done anything. You are saying people have no idea what's going on. You're saying the entire human knowledge gathered for thousands of years is in vain. I am not putting words in your mouth, you said that, literally

Basically, yes.. I am saying that thousands of years of knowledge (of which we don't even know 1%, these days) is for no reason. In fact the more knowledge people gain concerning the material world, the harder it is for them to see the reality of it all.

(And sorry for copying and pasting, but I decided to separate the matters in your post)

It's the humans intelligence, curiosity and compassion for other humans which destroyed the planet. If we would act like animals, there wouldn't be 6 billion people on Earth now. We would kill each other instead*. But then we would be nothing more than animals.

You are telling us how people have a need to believe to be in ctontrol and how pathetic it is while you are doing actually the same by telling us how people have no idea what's right, but you do. I ma refering to the part where you describe humans as nothing more than disorientated animals.**

*But thats exactly what we are doing, is that so hard to see? There are wars in Iraq, Palestine, Somalia, Turkmenistan, basically everywhere in africa there are civil wars all the time, Lebanon, Pakistan, Sudan, Yemen..

**It's hard to see it any other way, they way people are acting.

Yes, I'm familiar with the first law of thermo-dynamics and the concepts of the Conservation of Matter and Energy.

Of course not, I was ridiculing the religion and trying to get the message across that even something as stupid as an old man on a cloud is more beliveable than evolution.

Smart words, but you've just contradicted yourself.

Basically, yes.. I am saying that thousands of years of knowledge (of which we don't even know 1%, these days) is for no reason.

Let me correct that: 0.000000001%. Yet it's still pretty much. Just try to gain all the knowledge people have collected over years. You will die before you succees with that.
If you didn't notice, that thing you are just looking in, seeing my post here is based on this knowledge.

In fact the more knowledge people gain concerning the material world, the harder it is for them to see the reality of it all.

What makes you believe that?

(And sorry for copying and pasting, but I decided to separate the matters in your post)

Meh, no problem. Sometimes when I'm in a hurry, I do it as well.

It's hard to see it any other way, they way people are acting.

You are generalizing humans. Only because Bush is an idiot and powerhungry and there were more of these individuals during the humans history who manipulated people doesn't mean every human is like that.

But thats exactly what we are doing, is that so hard to see? There are wars in Iraq, Palestine, Somalia, Turkmenistan, basically everywhere in africa there are civil wars all the time, Lebanon, Pakistan, Sudan, Yemen..

People are fighting for their right, because... *points to the text written already above*. As long as there are people who think that they are better than others and as long as there are powerhungry idiots and as long as there is supression/inhibition (sp?) of poeple and/or minorities, the world will never find peace. Again, you are generalizing. And alone the fact that there are 6 billion people on Earth prooves that we are killing LESS than animals.

Wow, just wow.

I'm just facing the facts, humans are dim-witted creatures

Compared to what? Other animals?

every animal knows how to survive, they find food and they build nests, but humans somehow fucked that up too,

We did?? Yeh I guess that roof over my head and that pasta I just ate was me fucking up survival. Rephrase your question.

we lack the capacity to understand even the simplest things like how not to die.

Wtf? Are you talking about gaining immortality? If your not, the last time I checked I know I was alive, and so was my neighbor. Animals kill each other too, just on a smaller scale because there's less of them.

Do you really think a creature that does something like that is capable of understanding how everything came to be?

Something like what? I really am quite down on your lack of faith in humanity, which is causing you to attack them without proper cause or real evidence. You sound foolish...

People 500 years ago did research things, they didn't have the same technology as now but they did the best with what they had.

Did you know that when it was introduced that the world was round people where killed for stating that? That doesn't sound like an enlightened people. It sounds like a people ruled by god and superstition, as I said.

And the scientists today use their religion to back their claims aswell.

Perhaps you can give me the name of their "religion"...?

that everything thats alive and all the different animals and plants and everything in the world was, over billions of years formed out of a wet rock, which itself came from nothing, which suddenly exploded...

Again I'm struck with words that really bring me back to your quote of "humans being stupid". Please oh please, study the matter before saying these things...

I think I find the first choice more believable.

And that says more then a lot to me .

And personally I haven't seen nothing spontaneously blow up lately, have you?

I'm not going to explain to you the idea behind the bigbang but NO ONE has claimed that the explosion came from nothing. Your lack of knowledge on this theory shows you shouldn't be speaking on it.

Please feel free to add on from your original quotes to make them into a completely different expressions .

Obviously my point is:
Animals + Nature = Symbiotic existance
Humans + Nature = Everything dies

Humans are  of nature you know. Everything..? You put up an equation to something that hasn't happened yet, your trying to predict the future, as I can only assume your referring to things that haven't taken place ( "Everything"  dies ). For some one who takes such pleasure in down falling science and human knowledge you certainly are putting yourself in a god-like position of knowing the fate of humanity.

Of course not, I was ridiculing the religion and trying to get the message across that even something as stupid as an old man on a cloud is more believable than evolution.

Perhaps you would like to explain why an old man in the clouds has more plausibility and proof then evolution. Last time I checked, evolution wasn't in dispute, how it occurred certainly was but not that it happened ( excluding those who's faith it clashes with )...

Basically, yes.. I am saying that thousands of years of knowledge (of which we don't even know 1%, these days) is for no reason. In fact the more knowledge people gain concerning the material world, the harder it is for them to see the reality of it all.

What percentage are we talking about here? In total? Because your 1% would be laughable, I doubt, in total, if we know close to 0.000(c)1%. Yet I still think we know a lot, and certainly don't think we should stop our quest for knowledge. Just because something is difficult doesn't mean it's not worth doing. ( Edit: Beat me to it Blizz... ).

Oh and what "reality" are you talking about? Again I'm lost with these "obvious to a 5 year old" rants of yours.

(And sorry for copying and pasting, but I decided to separate the matters in your post)

Lol. your taking what he said out of context! Oh no!

*But thats exactly what we are doing, is that so hard to see? There are wars in Iraq, Palestine, Somalia, Turkmenistan, basically everywhere in africa there are civil wars all the time, Lebanon, Pakistan, Sudan, Yemen..

As I've said, animals kill other animals all of the time. We just do it with guns. If animals could use sophisticated tools, they would. Just because they're their intelligence isn't on par with us, doesn't mean they're any less violent.

It's hard to see it any other way, they way people are acting.

And yet the majority disagrees with you. I guess we're all just disorientated animals... Let me guess: your not huh?
 

@1st - It's saying that if you accept our money you CAN NOT be a Christian school. I know this is a minor example.

So I guess you're discriminating when you give money to a Christian institution but not to an Islamic one? When you give money to Creationist organisations but not to evolutionist ones? The government is and indeed should be secular, abstaining from funding religious activities whilst respecting their right to carry on with what they are doing (assuming, of course, that these activities are reasonable and don't involve harming other people or breaking the law).

You can't publically display a Nativity Scene, unless you have things pertaining to other holidays put up. But of course you're allowed to publically display any of the other things by themselves. Once again, I know this is a minor example, but it should get the point across.

I guess this law isn't very enforced because I've seen many more nativity scenes than Stars of David and menorahs or anything. I can tell you've been paying attention Sunday morning, can you pray for me?

@2nd - Where in the constituion does it say there can be NO religion in state?

I guess the writers just thought it was common sense!

Obviously my point is:
Animals + Nature = Symbiotic existance
Humans + Nature = Everything dies

Wow. First off, animals (including humans) = nature as has been said. Secondly, humans aren't destroying the environment- they're merely changing it.  Do you also think that the Aboriginal cultures have great love and respect for Nature and are much smarter than the civilised European when it comes to conserving it?

Of course not, I was ridiculing the religion and trying to get the message across that even something as stupid as an old man on a cloud is more beliveable than evolution.

...What the fuck?

*But thats exactly what we are doing, is that so hard to see? There are wars in Iraq, Palestine, Somalia, Turkmenistan, basically everywhere in africa there are civil wars all the time, Lebanon, Pakistan, Sudan, Yemen..

Except we don't fight each other the way animals do- on a day to day basis, everywhere fighting to eat or not be eaten, for small pieces of territory, etc. Animals aren't all that pacifistic.

Obviously my point is:
Animals + Nature = Symbiotic existance
Humans + Nature = Everything dies

Humans are  of nature you know. Everything..? You put up an equation to something that hasn't happened yet, your trying to predict the future, as I can only assume your referring to things that haven't taken place ( "Everything"  dies ). For some one who takes such pleasure in down falling science and human knowledge you certainly are putting yourself in a god-like position of knowing the fate of humanity.

That humans are of nature is your personal faith, and the fate of humanity isn't a mystery if you open your eyes.
Just like the fact that water in it's solid form doesn't run upwards, humanity will kill itself very soon.
(sad that I had to add that but without it you probably would have made some remark about steam)
And I have no problem with science, I have a problem with evolution, and as I've stated before, evolution is a religion, or a creed if you'd rather me call it that, but it's certainly not a science.

Of course not, I was ridiculing the religion and trying to get the message across that even something as stupid as an old man on a cloud is more believable than evolution.

Perhaps you would like to explain why an old man in the clouds has more plausibility and proof then evolution. Last time I checked, evolution wasn't in dispute, how it occurred certainly was but not that it happened ( excluding those who's faith it clashes with )...

Evolution has always been in dispute, more than anything by scientists.

The more one studies paleontology, the more certain one becomes that evolution is based on faith alone; exactly the same sort of faith which is necessary to have when one encounters the great mysteries of religion... The only alternative is the doctrine of special creation, which may be true, but is irrational.

I reject evolution because I deem it obsolete; because the knowledge, hard won since 1830, of anatomy, histology, cytology, and embryology, cannot be made to accord with its basic idea. The foundationless, fantastic edifice of the evolution doctrine would long ago have met with its long- deserved fate were it not that the love of fairy tales is so deep-rooted in the hearts of man.

The chance that higher life forms might have emerged in this way is comparable with the chance that a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein... I am at a loss to understand biologists' widespread compulsion to deny what seems to me to be obvious.

Basically, yes.. I am saying that thousands of years of knowledge (of which we don't even know 1%, these days) is for no reason. In fact the more knowledge people gain concerning the material world, the harder it is for them to see the reality of it all.

What percentage are we talking about here? In total? Because your 1% would be laughable, I doubt, in total, if we know close to 0.000(c)1%. Yet I still think we know a lot, and certainly don't think we should stop our quest for knowledge. Just because something is difficult doesn't mean it's not worth doing. ( Edit: Beat me to it Blizz... ).

Oh and what "reality" are you talking about? Again I'm lost with these "obvious to a 5 year old" rants of yours.

I'm talking about the only reality there is.

(And sorry for copying and pasting, but I decided to separate the matters in your post)

Lol. your taking what he said out of context! Oh no!

Hilarious, why did you feel that it was relevant to the subject to include this?

*But thats exactly what we are doing, is that so hard to see? There are wars in Iraq, Palestine, Somalia, Turkmenistan, basically everywhere in africa there are civil wars all the time, Lebanon, Pakistan, Sudan, Yemen..

As I've said, animals kill other animals all of the time. We just do it with guns. If animals could use sophisticated tools, they would. Just because they're their intelligence isn't on par with us, doesn't mean they're any less violent.

Again, that is your personal belief.
My personal belief is that there is nothing sophisticated about a gun, it's an idiots tool, and anyone who uses one is a disgrace to humanity.

It's hard to see it any other way, they way people are acting.

And yet the majority disagrees with you. I guess we're all just disorientated animals... Let me guess: your not huh?

I don't claim to be better than anyone, neither am I claiming to be stupid.
Doesn't take a genious to figure out that a race of creatures who care more about watching people pretend to be other people (TV.. Duh) than the 25 000 people starving to death every day, are completely oblivious to what the hell is going on in the world.

@1st - It's saying that if you accept our money you CAN NOT be a Christian school. I know this is a minor example.

So I guess you're discriminating when you give money to a Christian institution but not to an Islamic one? When you give money to Creationist organisations but not to evolutionist ones? The government is and indeed should be secular, abstaining from funding religious activities whilst respecting their right to carry on with what they are doing (assuming, of course, that these activities are reasonable and don't involve harming other people or breaking the law).

Everybody has the same rights as Blizzard said. I wouldn't mind the government giving money to an Islamic school. Just because I don't believe the religion doesn't mean I'm going to persecute it.
Also, as I've said before -- The Constitution ONLY says that the State can not make laws governing the Church (refering to ANY religion -- though at the time it meant Christianity/Catholocism -- History lesson Yay) and the Church can not make laws governing the State.

It also says that the State can not establish an official relgion. So I can see where you would get that the State should be secular. But that's not what it says.
A literal interpretation of that would be that the State can not force people to follow a certain religion. The Constitution also says that the State can not favor any religion over another.

So if they funded a Christian school, they would have to fund schools based on other beliefs as well.
As for the idea that this is a bad finnancial move being why they don't do so, think about this -

The State governments give BILLIONS to schools every year. Creating more and more schools. They've got the money and they OBVIOUSLY don't mind spending it. If they really  cared about the money, they wouldn't be WASTING all of it. The schools DO NOT NEED IT. Besides, they spend more money on the equipment than the education. :/ THAT is a bad financial move.

If the government supports one affiliated school, it'd have to support any other schools that are affiliated with other religions as well. Since the money obviously isn't an issue, what is? It could be that they don't want to be seen as supporting a religion. Okay, understandable. But do you really think other religions would let this offer go? HECK NO (lol), they'd snatch it up. If a relgion doesn't take the government up on the offer, it's not that the government doesn't support it, it's that the relgion... just... doesn't care.

It's a free country.

Also, take note of this.

http://www.adl.org/issue_religious_freedom/create/creationism5.asp

It used to be ILLEGAL to teach evolution in schools. I know this may seem like it has nothing to do with this topic, but it does. The government used to allow religion to be in schools, now it's banning it.

You can't say the Pledge of Allegience in some schools anymore because somebody was offended by the words "Under God".
FREE SPEECH. If no one could say something that would offend ANYBODY, then we'd all be mutes. This is also an example of the State governing relgion.

That humans are of nature is your personal faith, and the fate of humanity isn't a mystery if you open your eyes.

Do you even know what 'nature' means?

Just like the fact that water in it's solid form doesn't run upwards, humanity will kill itself very soon.

HUMANITY IS FALLING DOWN A SLIPPERY SLOPE A SLIPPERY SLOPE!
OH NOES!
WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE AND IT'S BECAUSE COCKROACHES ARE SO MUCH SMARTER!

(sad that I had to add that but without it you probably would have made some remark about steam)

You're not exactly class genius, are you?

And I have no problem with science, I have a problem with evolution, and as I've stated before, evolution is a religion, or a creed if you'd rather me call it that, but it's certainly not a science.

The whole concept of evolution is based on what we've observed from the fossil record, contemporary microevolution, geology, etc. etc.

Evolution has always been in dispute, more than anything by scientists.

Sure, some scientists dispute it. Some scientists dispute pretty much everything. Some scientists are idiots. To name three: L.T. More, Albert Fleischmann, and Sir Fred Hoyle. These quotes have absolutely no basis given, at least not here.

Furthermore, comparing evolution to a tornado piecing together a 747 is so fucking stupid I don't know where to begin. I think I'll start with the idea of 'natural selection', which is far from randomly throwing shit together.

Again, that is your personal belief.

No, not really. Animals don't have the capability of forming weapons, but if they did that'd be a great advantage for them. If a chimpanzee could use a gun or even something like a spear or arrow to kill or scare off prey/predators/competitors, what makes you think it wouldn't?

My personal belief is that there is nothing sophisticated about a gun, it's an idiots tool, and anyone who uses one is a disgrace to humanity.

You obviously don't know what 'sophisticated' means. DS doesn't mean 'sophisticated' as in 'upperclass' or whatever you're thinking, she means it as in complex. A gun is considerably complex. And no, people who use guns aren't disgraces to humanity. People who say shit like that, however, are.

I don't claim to be better than anyone, neither am I claiming to be stupid.
Doesn't take a genious to figure out that a race of creatures who care more about watching people pretend to be other people (TV.. Duh) than the 25 000 people starving to death every day, are completely oblivious to what the hell is going on in the world.

Speak for yourself. Were I one to be offended by dumb shit, I would be for that sweeping generalisation of mankind based on a handful of people.

Alrighty, on to Tsunokiette's post.

Everybody has the same rights as Blizzard said. I wouldn't mind the government giving money to an Islamic school. Just because I don't believe the religion doesn't mean I'm going to persecute it.

Not funding religious activities isn't persecution. Again, it's not the government's place to support (or oppose) religious activity!

Also, as I've said before -- The Constitution ONLY says that the State can not make laws governing the Church (refering to ANY religion -- though at the time it meant Christianity/Catholocism -- History lesson Yay) and the Church can not make laws governing the State.

I've already addressed this. Do you think that maybe if you repeat it again I'll buy it?'

It also says that the State can not establish an official relgion. So I can see where you would get that the State should be secular. But that's not what it says.

No religion = secular.
At least that's what I was under the impression of!

The State governments give BILLIONS to schools every year. Creating more and more schools. They've got the money and they OBVIOUSLY don't mind spending it. If they really  cared about the money, they wouldn't be WASTING all of it. The schools DO NOT NEED IT. Besides, they spend more money on the equipment than the education. :/ THAT is a bad financial move.

This isn't the place for discussion on the financial situation of the US education system. Whether or not the US or any other government has money to fund religious schools is irrelevant to whether it should.

It used to be ILLEGAL to teach evolution in schools. I know this may seem like it has nothing to do with this topic, but it does. The government used to allow religion to be in schools, now it's banning it.

Creationism is religion, and nothing more. We could get into a pointless Creationism vs. Evolution debate here, but suffice it to say that it again is not the job of the government to promote religious beliefs. It's a good step that we've eliminated Creationism from our schools.

You can't say the Pledge of Allegience in some schools anymore because somebody was offended by the words "Under God".
FREE SPEECH. If no one could say something that would offend ANYBODY, then we'd all be mutes. This is also an example of the State governing relgion.

No, it's an example of some schools avoiding potential conflict. If theists want to say 'under God', so be it. But in our schools, if indeed we should even have such a silly and meaningless pledge, it shouldn't be there.

Well gonorrhoea has pretty much jumped in and belittled your claims, btw I was laughing the entire way, good work. But I will try to comment on them suffice to say that my ideas are similar to gonorrhoea's. Even still I will do my best not to repeat said things.

That humans are of nature is your personal faith, and the fate of humanity isn't a mystery if you open your eyes.*

Just like the fact that water in it's solid form doesn't run upwards, humanity will kill itself very soon.**

(sad that I had to add that but without it you probably would have made some remark about steam)***

And I have no problem with science, I have a problem with evolution, and as I've stated before, evolution is a religion, or a creed if you'd rather me call it that, but it's certainly not a science.****

Evolution has always been in dispute, more than anything by scientists.****

*~My eyes are open, how do you think I'm typing..?
**~It will? Again this god-like psychic knowledge you have is astounding. For someone who doesn't know proper English, you certainly have no problem predicting the fate of mankind.
***~WTF is steam? I mean I just learned that "water in it's solid form doesn't run upwards", can it go in other directions??
****~gonorrhoea said it pretty much all here, but perhaps your getting this "evolution religion" thing mixed up with Darwinism..? There is current conflict ( I'm not sure who brought it on ) about the ideas of Darwin's theory of Evolution, not evolution itself.

I'm talking about the only reality there is.

K, kool.

So is is like a secret club or something? Do I need to know the secret handshake before we can talk about it?

The only conclusion I can come to by responses like this is;
1) You don't know,
2) You think it would sound stupid by giving us your beliefs,
3) Your lying.
 

Hilarious, why did you feel that it was relevant to the subject to include this?

If it doesn't matter then don't use it as an excuse when trying to avoid questions you can't answer. How many fucking times did you mention it when I did the same thing...? Not to say successfully avoid my questions...

Again, that is your personal belief.*

My personal belief is that there is nothing sophisticated about a gun, it's an idiots tool, and anyone who uses one is a disgrace to humanity.**

*~Yes it is, that's why we are here in the "debate" section.
**~As was pointed out by the teacher, class, some words have more then one meaning.

I don't claim to be better than anyone, neither am I claiming to be stupid.*

Doesn't take a genious**

to figure out that a race of creatures who care more about watching people pretend to be other people (TV.. Duh) than the 25 000 people starving to death every day, are completely oblivious to what the hell is going on in the world.***

*~No, but your posts are doing a fine job at that.
**~Obviously not .
***~Yes perhaps these corporate yuppies should just quit their job and move to Africa to help out all of the little children ( they're cute no? Just like kittens! ). But what's this? Not only has American industry started to crumble because of the lack of workers but all of those people who went to Africa have caught AIDS. Hmmm that plan didn't work....

There are many situations were it would be illogical for us to put everything down because some people are dying in a failing country. Last time I checked, that was natural selection in play. If your little emo heart can't handle all of this then please oh please start helping them and quit annoying us.

On that subject, do you even help them?! I'm not talking about sending $5 every week to some world vision cult, I mean do you actually help them? Do you wash their feet? Do YOU get them fresh drinking water? Do you even help the homeless in your own country? Oh, and by the chance that you do that crap WHY AREN'T YOU DOING IT NOW? What's that? Taking a break? Like "all those blind people watching TV"? How the fuck is sitting on your ass reading this any better then them getting home and taking a break by watching something on a different screen. It's easier to judge other people then it is to act huh?


( Oh and even though the quotes are broken I P-R-O-M-I-S-E this isn't just me manipulating your words again. If your confused as to why all of your quotes sound so bad, well it's not because I'm editing, it's because your an idiot. Oh and that's not flaming, that's just my personal opinion ).

@gonorrhoea - What conflict? There IS NO CASE. The schools aren't avoiding conflict, they're CREATING it.

The only time god should be mentioned in schools is in the study of religion which should not be done untill students are actually at an age where they can understand what they're looking at(high school level) in my opinion. Schools are places of learning, not religious bullshit.

The only time god should be mentioned in schools is in the study of religion which should not be done untill students are actually at an age where they can understand what they're looking at(high school level) in my opinion. Schools are places of learning, not religious bullshit.

Well said. Do you have any type of religion in American schools?? We actually have Religious Education in Australia... It's sickening...

Christians go under the notion that "the non-believers don't have to attend" or that "they don't have to pay attention" but that is completely asinine. Children are practically being brainwashed into believing in some cult and pay serious attention to "IT'S THIS OR HELL FIRE". It's manipulation and it is damn evil in my point of view. People should want to join a faith because they feel like it, NOT because of the threat of violence.

As you said perfectly: "Schools are places of learning, not religious bullshit.".

What's that? Religion IS about learning? Then why is your faith the correct one? Because you say it is...? Please...

Christians go under the notion that "the non-believers don't have to attend" or that "they don't have to pay attention" but that is completely asinine. Children are practically being brainwashed into believing in some cult and pay serious attention to "IT'S THIS OR HELL FIRE". It's manipulation and it is damn evil in my point of view. People should want to join a faith because they feel like it, NOT because of the threat of violence.

Whatever.

@gonorrhoea - What conflict? There IS NO CASE. The schools aren't avoiding conflict, they're CREATING it.

I don't know, maybe it's the whole bitchfit about 'under God' in the pledge? It's just easier and less of a pain in the ass to forget the whole thing.

Well said. Do you have any type of religion in American schools?? We actually have Religious Education in Australia... It's sickening...

Not aside from Religious Education, really.

Christians go under the notion that "the non-believers don't have to attend" or that "they don't have to pay attention" but that is completely asinine. Children are practically being brainwashed into believing in some cult and pay serious attention to "IT'S THIS OR HELL FIRE". It's manipulation and it is damn evil in my point of view. People should want to join a faith because they feel like it, NOT because of the threat of violence.

True story.

Christians go under the notion that "the non-believers don't have to attend" or that "they don't have to pay attention" but that is completely asinine. Children are practically being brainwashed into believing in some cult and pay serious attention to "IT'S THIS OR HELL FIRE". It's manipulation and it is damn evil in my point of view. People should want to join a faith because they feel like it, NOT because of the threat of violence.

True story.

If Gij is allowed to say it then I am too: you're a moron.

It's fucking sad that you and the cat can't stick to the subject and even attempt to defend your little bullshit religion without jumping to personal attacks, maybe thats because evolution is such a stupid idea it's hard to back it up with any claims pertaining to reality.

I haven't said anything about you two in any of my posts but in all of yours theres nothing but slander and constant repeating of your "natural selection" doctrines like a fucking mantra, you might not know this but saying something long enough and trying to belittle everything else doesn't make it true, it just makes you an idiot.

Every sane person in the world can see that evolution doesn't work out, there are no proof of it ever occurring, the concept of it is flawed, but you're too wrapped up in your little "You can't tell me what to do! You're not my father"
Self pitying innuendo to see that it's impossible for everything to have formed out of a wet fucking rock over billions of years.
Especially since it would mandate for a BEGINNING and an END of everything, there is no unlimited in your creed, and the laws of conservation state that matter and energy cannot be created nor can it be destroyed, only transformed into something else.

If everything evolved into more perfect forms, since everything started at the same time, everything should have evolved the exact same way, into one perfect creature that is better than anyone else, instead of thousands of different creatures.

I have never seen anyone who believe in evolution actually back it up with facts or reasonable theorems, it's always slander and insults.
And that is because there are no facts or reasonable theorems to support that outdated fictional crap.

"My eyes are open, how do you think I can read?"
"WTF is steam?"
-It doesn't take a genious-
"Obviously not "

And the cat is even more stupid.
Anyone who claims that humanity is moving forward must be completely blind, to think humans are smarter now than they were 4000 years ago is wrong, simple as that.
It's called Entropy, look it up.
3000 years ago people knew that everything was in essence nothing more than energy, and these scientists who are oh-so-smart just came out with a startling discovery, when you split an atom and then split the little quarks, everything is in essence nothing more than energy!
Oh my, where have I heard that before?

Everything this wonderful modern science comes up with is either destructive or useless.
And mostly both.
Weapons
Nuclear power
Cars
Airplanes
anything that runs on gasoline

Humans are the stupidest creatures on earth.

And to the cat, I know what nature means, nature is the physical world and all the animals, plants and landscapes in it.

Humans aren't a part of nature, we're not animals, never have been and never will be.

The only time god should be mentioned in schools is in the study of religion which should not be done untill students are actually at an age where they can understand what they're looking at(high school level) in my opinion. Schools are places of learning, not religious bullshit.

The only time Evolution should be mentioned in schools is when they talk about things that are completely false.

And not only that but it is illegal to teach evolution as a fact in public schools, it has to be presented as a theory.

The only reason the government supports evolution is because it's one of two religions that doesn't condemn murder, and thus they have more sacrifices for their armies.
More people who are willing to kill other people so the polticians can fill their wallets.

The only logical conclusion being that the earth came about by intelligent design.

And if the Earth was designed, there must be a designer.

The designer can not be natural, for it in itself would need a begining.

The only answer is that the earth had a Supernatural Designer. (aka God)

Every sane person in the world can see that evolution doesn't work out, there are no proof of it ever occurring, the concept of it is flawed, but you're too wrapped up in your little "You can't tell me what to do! You're not my father"
Self pitying innuendo to see that it's impossible for everything to have formed out of a wet fucking rock over billions of years.

Especially since it would mandate for a BEGINNING and an END of everything, there is no unlimited in your creed, and the laws of conservation state that matter and energy cannot be created nor can it be destroyed, only transformed into something else.

What aree you trying to say here?

If everything evolved into more perfect forms, since everything started at the same time, everything should have evolved the exact same way, into one perfect creature that is better than anyone else, instead of thousands of different creatures.

Have you given any thought to this at all? I mean, it's not as if the Earth was a featureless sphere with an even coating of nutritious slime. Environments vary widely, and available niches close up fast.

Also, you, like many people, seem to think that evolution has a "goal" beyond that of survival. There is no perfect creature, nor will there ever be.

I have never seen anyone who believe in evolution actually back it up with facts or reasonable theorems, it's always slander and insults.
And that is because there are no facts or reasonable theorems to support that outdated fictional crap.

Probably because you're an arrogant twit who dismisses evolution without even knowing what it is.

Anyone who claims that humanity is moving forward must be completely blind, to think humans are smarter now than they were 4000 years ago is wrong, simple as that.
It's called Entropy, look it up.

If you think that we were better off 4000 years ago then you are insane. Move to the Amazon and live with an indigenous tribe for a year and tell me how great it is.

3000 years ago people knew that everything was in essence nothing more than energy,

What people believed that? There were many peoples 3000 years ago.

and these scientists who are oh-so-smart just came out with a startling discovery, when you split an atom and then split the little quarks, everything is in essence nothing more than energy!
Oh my, where have I heard that before?

What is your point? You think that divine energy is radioactive?

Everything this wonderful modern science comes up with is either destructive or useless.
Nuclear power

Nuclear power is a sasfe technology, and most people fear it because of Chernobyl (which was the fault of shitty Soviet engineering) and Three Mile Island, which was a success story.

Humans aren't a part of nature, we're not animals, never have been and never will be.

As long as we continue to inhabit bodies that are the product of evolution and reproduce in what is known as the natural way, then we will be part of nature.

The only time Evolution should be mentioned in schools is when they talk about things that are completely false.
And not only that but it is illegal to teach evolution as a fact in public schools, it has to be presented as a theory.

All scientific "facts" are theories. Do you doubt gravity?

It's fucking sad that you and the cat can't stick to the subject and even attempt to defend your little bullshit religion without jumping to personal attacks, maybe thats because evolution is such a stupid idea it's hard to back it up with any claims pertaining to reality.

Why don't you shut the fuck up, eh? 'Y CANT U 2 PLAY NICE! U GUYS R IDIUTS N I HAET U[...]'.

I haven't said anything about you two in any of my posts but in all of yours theres nothing but slander and constant repeating of your "natural selection" doctrines like a fucking mantra, you might not know this but saying something long enough and trying to belittle everything else doesn't make it true, it just makes you an idiot.

Why don't you give me some proof against evolution then? Saying it's stupid over and over again won't make me believe it, either.

Every sane person in the world can see that evolution doesn't work out, there are no proof of it ever occurring, the concept of it is flawed

Right, nothing like all of the research into geology, paleaontology, biology in general...

Self pitying innuendo to see that it's impossible for everything to have formed out of a wet fucking rock over billions of years.

This is why I've insulted you. You obviously have no understanding of evolution.

I have never seen anyone who believe in evolution actually back it up with facts or reasonable theorems, it's always slander and insults.
And that is because there are no facts or reasonable theorems to support that outdated fictional crap.

That must be since the only defence for evolution you've ever heard was mismashed or out of context quotes Creationists use for their propaganda or some shit, because I've heard plenty. On the other hand, I've never heard a reasonable defence for Creationism- it mostly boils down to, 'BIBLE SAYS SO.' 'EVOLUTION CAUSED THE HOLOCAUST.'

"My eyes are open, how do you think I can read?"

I've already said DS is an idiot.

"WTF is steam?"

...

-It doesn't take a genious-
"Obviously not "

Well you're not acting very intelligent. Or intelligent at all, for that matter.

And the cat is even more stupid.

Aw, the way you and ataraxy insult me hurts so much. I'd hate for such mindnumbingly idiotic fucktards to think of me as stupid, it's rather insulting!

Anyone who claims that humanity is moving forward must be completely blind, to think humans are smarter now than they were 4000 years ago is wrong, simple as that.

We haven't advanced at all, it's true. Might as well go back to Sumeria!

(btw, sarcasm ^)

Everything this wonderful modern science comes up with is either destructive or useless.
And mostly both.
Weapons
Nuclear power
Cars
Airplanes
anything that runs on gasoline

No, you're an idiot. For example, cars and aeroplanes. Sure, they have some bad effects but they've revolutionised the world's transportation and have more pros than cons. Furthermore, they're getting cleaner.
Hey, here's some more shit that's destructive and useless:
Medicine.
Environmental science.
The Internet.
Printing.
etc.

Humans are the stupidest creatures on earth.

You are, but not the rest of us. I've already addressed this earlier in the thread, but you just ignored that.

And to the cat, I know what nature means, nature is the physical world and all the animals, plants and landscapes in it.

Humans aren't a part of nature, we're not animals, never have been and never will be.

Humans are primates. Primates are animals. Animals are nature.
So I guess you just didn't know what humans were, my apologies.

The only time Evolution should be mentioned in schools is when they talk about things that are completely false.

ahahahahahahaha

And not only that but it is illegal to teach evolution as a fact in public schools, it has to be presented as a theory.

It's not a theory, it's a scientific law. Due to semantic (sorry to make you bust out the dictionary) shift, 'fact' ~= 'scientific law' except in its strictist definition.

The only reason the government supports evolution is because it's one of two religions that doesn't condemn murder, and thus they have more sacrifices for their armies.
More people who are willing to kill other people so the polticians can fill their wallets.

I guess that would explain why the military is mostly made up of Southern Christians.
Also, war != murder.

The only logical conclusion being that the earth came about by intelligent design.

And if the Earth was designed, there must be a designer.

The designer can not be natural, for it in itself would need a begining.

The only answer is that the earth had a Supernatural Designer. (aka God)

You remind me of what I used to be like. Don't worry, you'll be cured soon enough

p.s. Pi = 3

Aw, the way you and ataraxy insult me hurts so much.

I didn't insult you, it's not my fault if you are too ignorant to accept that what I called you a moron over made no sense.

Cat, you're kinda making my point for me.

No, you're an idiot. For example, cars and aeroplanes. Sure, they have some bad effects but they've revolutionised the world's transportation and have more pros than cons. Furthermore, they're getting cleaner.

"They're getting cleaner"? This doesn't justify it, they have to have been completely clean and unaffecting nature from the very start for them to not be a step back in progress.
Anything that affects nature in a destructive way, no matter how little, is really not worth using.

And you can't shift the blame like that, you can't come up with a theory and then say I have to disprove it for it to be invalid.

Then I might aswell say aliens, shaped like beer bottles, came and built the Sydney opera house.
Now YOU prove that its false or else it's true.

Most palentologists agree that there is no proof of evolution, if species mutated into better ones
(fyi there has never been an observation of any positive mutations in a species, they have always been negative, things don't get better when they mutate, they get worse)
there would be piles of bones scattered everywhere around the globe... Seems like thats not the case since they haven't found a single one that hasn't turned out to be a fraud.

If you heard so much valid defense for evolution why is it you're not using that instead of just trying to change the subject into some childish "I know you are but what am I?" insult game?

Cat, the military is not made up of southern christians...
Most people who say they are christan, aren't.
A real christian would renounce all affiliations with any governmental institution and would NEVER sign up for service in a military power.


Only evolution and satanism allows murder.
Any one who says otherwise is a liar, you can't be christian, muslim, buddhist, hinduist etc. and kill another human, it just doesn't work.
It would be like calling yourself a vegitarian and eating meat.

And cat, evolutionism is the disease, not the other religions.

Yeh looks like I missed out again, the only thing left untouched would be the utter irony of you using personal attacks to describe personal attacks. You have provided no real evidence for your claims, you state things on science that has been taken so far out of context that I couldn't recognize them in many cases, and I'm afraid you just look like the rest of the religious slandering fools who take what little knowledge they have, and try to turn it into a weapon "OMG TEH SAID WE COME FROM MONKEYS!!!".

As to my quotes;

"My eyes are open, how do you think I can read?"
"WTF is steam?"
-It doesn't take a genious-
"Obviously not Wink"

How am I meant to come back to stupidity other then using the same..? I'm afraid you had already proven that you couldn't handle yourself ( avoiding questions, lack of restraint and of course no real knowledge or plausible sources ) so I lost respect in what you had to say. If you want to be treated with more respect then perhaps you should try answering a question or two rather then recycling the same crap over and over.

As to Saladin: Good points, are you sure you don't go by a different name..? Either way it's nice to see some more people with a bit of intelligence join us at the forums.
_________________________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________

The only logical conclusion being that the earth came about by intelligent design.

And if the Earth was designed, there must be a designer.

The designer can not be natural, for it in itself would need a begining.

The only answer is that the earth had a Supernatural Designer. (aka God)

Yeh it's easy to say that "God" is the answer because you have the oh-so delicious "He was always there" argument. I'm sure if we wanted to, we could use the same defense, but unlike religion, science tends to back things up with evidence before wildly stating things. The reason why I find your god to be so flawed and fictional is because to me, he ( it has a gender.. ) is really just a reflection of man himself.

You state that Yahweh is omnipotent:

Do we all understand the meaning of that word..? It means the top, all knowing, absolutely nothing else to know.

Do you understand that for omnipotence to be held you would have to have completed every action? You would have to know and do everything? Feel, everything? I say this because it would be impossible to become, or be, all knowing with third party information. Because there is no good or evil all choices are equal within them selves, ( in other words all paths are as good as each other because none of them are wrong ) a person who knows all of the different "sides" first hand, would actually know that there actually are no "sides" to speak of.

So without some type of personal prejudice, which would be impossible for something truly omnipotent, an all knowing being would be completely neutral and yet your god seems to claim to be pure love and "good". Morality is only something to exist for humans, not "divine" beings. You god is either lying to you or it doesn't exist.   

Also an all knowing, all powerful god would have no reason to create. I dismiss Christianity because it is flawed, heavily.

_________________________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________

"They're getting cleaner"? This doesn't justify it, they have to have been completely clean and unaffecting nature from the very start for them to not be a step back in progress.
Anything that affects nature in a destructive way, no matter how little, is really not worth using.

And how do you suppose we get them fully clean..? By not doing anything about it? It's called trial and error.

And you can't shift the blame like that, you can't come up with a theory and then say I have to disprove it for it to be invalid.

No, but you should really, really show some evidence to back your claims unless you want to look like a fool. You're blindly stating things with no back up, how can that be respected?

Then I might aswell say aliens, shaped like beer bottles, came and built the Sydney opera house.
Now YOU prove that its false or else it's true.

Wow, bravo... If you real want me to show you some evidence I would be happy to do it. Your speaking as if your points of discussion are common knowledge, which they're not.

Most palentologists agree that there is no proof of evolution, if species mutated into better ones
(fyi there has never been an observation of any positive mutations in a species, they have always been negative, things don't get better when they mutate, they get worse)

Lol, again. Uhhh random mutations..?? Who's claiming that?

If you heard so much valid defense for evolution why is it you're not using that instead of just trying to change the subject into some childish "I know you are but what am I?" insult game?

Because we're not the ones claiming wild stories. "If it where sciences job to disprove every crack-pot theory, then we would never get any real work done...", your theory is the one out of mainstream, it's not my job to fight it, it's your job to give it plausibility though...

Cat, the military is not made up of southern christians...
Most people who say they are christan, aren't.
A real christian would renounce all affiliations with any governmental institution and would NEVER sign up for service in a military power.

I guess there's no such thing as a real Christian then, I mean if you where only a Christian because you followed the rules to exact, then I guess that would make us Atheist the dominate religion out there...

Only evolution and satanism allows murder.
Any one who says otherwise is a liar, you can't be christian, muslim, buddhist, hinduist etc. and kill another human, it just doesn't work.
It would be like calling yourself a vegitarian and eating meat.

Ahahahahaha!! Do you know that in the bible it says that it's the job of every Christian to "KILL" homosexuals..? Give me a few seconds, I'll give you the page number...

And cat, evolutionism is the disease, not the other religions.

K, kool. Uhhh I don't know what he thinks about it, but you calling him "Cat" is starting to piss me off.

This list of Creationist claims puts down pretty much every argument she has made. I'd like to point her attention to one section in particular:

Evolution is not a religion.

Deliciously_Saucy - I don't like commenting on Religion threads all that much... As I tend to upset the gullable people that love reading chapter after chapter of crap that the bible consists of...

I think your topic is loosing a sense of direction.

And it's slowly becoming a debate on IF God Exsists. Or how we came about to exsist...

Instead of Seperation of Church and state... So Back on Topic

I am fed up with world leaders using religion to back their campaigns or reasons... To me Bush saying as he did in your first post, about God telling him to strike Saddam is like him saying Santa told him to do it... To me it's like he has a Mental disfunction.  People in the medical world call it being schizophrenic.

Politcis, Law and running of state in my opinion should NEVER quote a single God or relate to one ethnic or religious standing especially when we live in a multicultual world.

And Bush making that remark is almost saying he is rightious and acting out Gods decessions rather than his own, and in that notion makes him no better than thoughs Detonating them selves in the name of their Gods.

I back Deliciously_Saucy 110% on this Debate... Sorry all you God loving zombies but wake up, nobody is questioning the exsistance of God, we are saying what place does religion have in politics, and if it does hold ground why does it ?