religion its a concept thats not specific to any one society what do i think about religion? i think its bullshit if there really was a god why would he let so many fall under the sway of false religions? and why is it that all the prophets and signs from god (like when he turns inanimate objects into snakes) seem to have happened thousands of years ago would god not still intervene? and the story of that tower... it was like the babylon tower or something where god (this is from the christian religion) gets all pissed off because the people tried to build a tower to heaven but yet we have launched things into space and god didn't get pissed off at us and break them its like the founder of scientology told "starting you own religion is the best way to make money" all religions are either a scam to earn money, power and/or fame or they are just people who are afraid of death trying to reassure themselves or they are people who want an answer to where everything came from and why they are here
religion is just the easy way out in my opinion it means you don't have any confusion as to what happens to you after you die it means you don't have to be afraid of death and it means you don't need to understand how anything works (like the especially confusing concept of time) and that is why so many people follow it
however scientology while being a money scam is also something different entirely its... hard to describe why i think people follow it but its similar to the reason i am furry and unless you have experienced something similar to what i am talking about its probably something you will never understand
that does NOT mean however that i think there is anything good about scientology DO NOT JOIN IT YOUR LIFE WILL BE AT GREAT RISK! im not kidding many people have died because of scientology simply by saying this i put my life at risk (a very small risk but a risk none the less)
P.S. remember this is a debate i'm not just flaming religion i want to hear some good arguments in favor of religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_stop
yes i know this is a controversial topic but these are the reasons i don't believe in a religion i don't think differently of someone because they believe in something i think is bs and i do actually want to hear some good arguments defending religion obviously theres something i don't see that others do i did after all put a warning in the title
and besides if anyones faith is shaken by anything i say they probably already had doubts in the first place
WE'VE NEVER HAD A RELIGION DEBATE BEFORE.
You can't prove religion true or false. There's nothing to debate.
i didn't mean controversial on this forum i meant in general
you don't need to prove it wrong or right i just suck at making titles i want someone who strongly believes in a religion (scentology and christianity especially) to tell me why they believe in it and dispute my claims that it is bs and full of holes
Quote from: BanisherOfEden on April 15, 2008, 05:41:19 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_stop
Quote from: Sabre_of_Pain on April 15, 2008, 06:11:46 AM
yes i know this is a controversial topic but these are the reasons i don't believe in a religion i don't think differently of someone because they believe in something i think is bs and i do actually want to hear some good arguments defending religion obviously theres something i don't see that others do i did after all put a warning in the title
and besides if anyones faith is shaken by anything i say they probably already had doubts in the first place
...
Did you even follow BOE's link? You really should. =x It might help people understand what you're saying in your posts, because right now, it's too hard to read without getting a headache.
oh i see i was thinking because it was full stop that he meant... oh whatever and no i cant i honestly don't know how the only english class i ever took in school was grade 8 and that was nothing to do with punctuation
1. My English was bad before and no one read my posts (they still don't ;-;) but I tried to improve lol. This forum becomes a real ass killer if you don't know English ;-;. That's why I always say, Kids.....Do a spell check once a day and then you are ready to become gay
also,
2. Yes, there is a God and some people think there isn't. I think there is and there's not much you can debate on it. We've had such debates before which ended up in flaming but you cant prove if God is there or not so...just eat apples and experience the Newton Theory.
Quote from: Irock on April 15, 2008, 06:17:10 AM
You can't prove religion true or false. There's nothing to debate.
I'm not religious but I think something is there... The amount of times I almost died but haven't lol.
But yeah, maybe there is something.
I'm not entirely sure how to respond to this topic, seeing as the range of possible discussion is pretty close to infinite, but I will clarify something regarding the tower of Babel.
It had nothing to do with building a really huge tower. *looks for his Bible*
Genesis 11:3
QuoteThey began saying to each other, "Let's make bricks and harden them with fire." (In this region bricks were used instead of stone, and tar was used for mortar.) 4 Then they said, "Come, let's build a great city for ourselves with a tower that reaches into the sky. This will make us famous and keep us from being scattered all over the world."
I don't remember specifically where it was, but God had commanded them to spread and populate the world. (Or something similar, makes me feel like a bad Christian for not knowing lol ;_; ) They were building the tower to, "...keep us from being scattered all over the world." This wasn't just an "oops, I didn't realize you meant we should 'scatter' right now", what they were doing was in direct opposition to what God had commanded them.
Think about it. A human king tells one of his subjects to make him a cup of coffee. The subject says no and the king has him executed because he's the king and it's against the law to disobey him. Since they didn't "scatter" themselves, God "scattered" their languages so they would have no choice but to "scatter", seeing as they couldn't understand each other enough to cooperate and build the tower.
Though I'm sure none of you really cared.
i did! thats why i started this topic... thank you for the correction
but you say you are christian after everything i said surely you have something else to say in defense of your religion or at the very least you could say why you follow a religion at all
Yes there are religions, case closed.
Well, as for starting a religion for fame and money:
Nobody would have profited from Christianity. In fact, the early followers of Jesus (http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_extrabib.html) were scorned and probably hated by their families. The Jewish people wanted Jesus (hereto after referred to as 'the Christ') executed and tried many times to trick Him into breaking the laws of the land so He could be punished. Eventually they charged Him with blasphemy and crucified Him. He had fulfilled all of the prophecies of the Torah concerning the Christ but they still hated Him and "hung Him on a tree" - thus fulfilling one of the last prophecies concerning the Christ (the Messiah, the Son of Man, et cetera). I can't even begin to describe how unappealing Christianity was.
If you want to discuss the authenticity of the Bible, start another topic.
Now, why do I believe in Christianity?
It has been backed up by history and archaeological discoveries.
http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/Bible-Archaeology.htm
(haven't read the site, but it looks like it's legit, aka not blind facts. If you require it, I'll try to find some diary entries during the excavations or something like that)
There's no way there can't be a God (most atheistic arguments against the existence of a God say that since everything must have a beginning the existence of a God is not possible, simply because He has no beginning. There are other arguments against the existence of a God, if you want me to answer to them, just ask :) ) and after studying the Biological makeup of numerous species, the complexity of their makeup and how everything works perfectly and if one thing was different the whole species would fail, aka die horribly far before being given a chance to reproduce, all but vocally tells me that there was an intelligent creator (once again, refer to an argument and I will do my best to answer.)
Religion isn't the easy way out, in fact, it's the hard way out. Atheism says that there's nothing beyond death. Christianity says that there is indeed an eternity after death (and after several horrible plagues and scourges released upon the earth in the end times) and that you are accountable to a being who is eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, perfect, and in charge of you. Not entirely sure how that's the easy way out.
No offense to any Scientologists in here, but Scientology is popular because it is a fad. Just like all those people who believe that pokemon and digimon (and in our case DBZ :tpg: ) are real even though we have undeniable proof that they are just cartoons. (well, not really undeniable, there's always the chance that the author had a 'vision' while being 'inspired'.
There are many religions that should not be followed.
Example : The Church of the Fonz :tpg: (http://youtube.com/watch?v=YqQDsyVcbrA) (No sound ;_; )
I don't think I've fully explained why I'm Christian, but that takes a lot of words and I'm tired of typing right now.
Also, I agree with Forcystus. There will always be religions. There will always be conflicting religions. There will be intelligent religions. There will be idiotic religions (Church of the Fonz xD ).
Point being, it's gonna happen, might as well try to make it as peaceful as possible.
well it's about time someone took this thread seriously THATS what i wanted not just people coming in with remarks like these
Quote from: ForcystusYes there are religions, case closed.
ROFL forcystus your so fucking original and funny
well ok most of what you said makes alot of sense but what about all the fossils of past life forms
Quote from: Tsunokietteafter studying the Biological makeup of numerous species, the complexity of their makeup and how everything works perfectly and if one thing was different the whole species would fail, aka die horribly far before being given a chance to reproduce
yes that makes perfect sense and many species did die out but if even one species no matter how simple they were even if it was a mere single cell organism after the billions of years that passed could evolve into many things but if god created man in the beginning then where did all these fossils come from? did god just put them there for fun?
i seriously doubt anyone over the age of 9 who is sane of mind believes that pokemon or digimon are real
Quote from: TsunokietteIf you want to discuss the authenticity of the Bible, start another topic.
erm that was to be one of my arguments yes but ok whatever
Quote from: TsunokietteAlso, I agree with Forcystus. There will always be religions. There will always be conflicting religions.
perhaps in the future there wont be you never know but i do agree that is is extremely likely that religion will be around for quite a long time and possibly forever the point of this thread was not to deter anyone from their religion... unless its scientology in which case i fear for their lives
Quote from: Sabre_of_Pain on April 17, 2008, 08:53:17 PM
i seriously doubt anyone over the age of 9 who is sane of mind believes that pokemon or digimon are real
What does this have to do with religion?
Quote from: Sabre_of_Pain on April 17, 2008, 08:53:17 PM
perhaps in the future there wont be you never know but i do agree that is is extremely likely that religion will be around for quite a long time and possibly forever the point of this thread was not to deter anyone from their religion... unless its scientology in which case i fear for their lives
Scientology is a FAD not a religion. The odds of it lasting as long as long as established religions is absurd. As much as I don't like Chistianity, it has some philosphies that make sense, hence why it has lasted. I personally go by Norse Paganism, though not the most popular religion it has valid philosophies hence why it's stayed. Also Buddhism as much as I DESPISE it, has valid points hence why it's been around so long. Scientology is gibberish, it makes less sense that the bloody Necrominon for Odin's sake. Arg, I'm getting side tracked. My original point, YES valid religions will stay with us untill the end of time, but scientology sure as hell won't.
lol, it's funny that no matter how much we all disagree when it comes to our religions, we can all agree Scientology is just a fad.
BBL: Dinner, and then my sis is gonna get on computer, I should be able to answer then. :)
(somewhat off-topic)
Thats because scientology is basiclaly 1 big walking contradiction to itself, it means nothing and makes no sence, therefore its a fad that alot of people for some reason believe in.
Although the best religious name i heard of was "the gospel of the flying spaghetti monster" XD
The Flying Spaghetti Monster is awesome.
(https://rmrk.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg132.imageshack.us%2Fimg132%2F2508%2Ffsmhb2.jpg&hash=e8f8e3f6ceb7d01d8a42913b5ded9eae1219d62f)
There is actually someone in my collage who follows that religion, they have a "dress like a pirate day" thing or something.
It's not a real religion though. Some people were making a point that religious people are gullible and believe things without much proof. They said it would be like if saying there was such a thing as a flying spaghetti monster and people believed it. They would believe not because they've seen it, but because they haven't. And after all, how can you disprove something you've never seen?
It's a stab at the faulty logic of religions.
lol. True. (my brain hurts, been studying biology for a quiz tommorow ;_. )
About the authenticity of the Bible. This is a broad topic under the broad topic of "Do Relgions have anything to back them up?", which is what I'm assuming was the main question of this topic. The reason I say to make a separate topic for that is, well, let's face it, that would stem into another debate entirely and be split into a separate topic anyways, so might as well start it as one.
But, once again, if you want to discuss it, just ask (in here) and hopefully we can stay on topic :) .
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking about the fossils, so if I don't answer your question, just tell me.
If you're refering to evolution, I've debated it a few times (I'm in favor of spliting evolution into macro and micro evolution. Where my belief is that macro evolution does not happen but micro evolution can be seen everywhere, especially in people) but I'm not as educated on the subject as I'd like to be. I have several reference books, so I might be able to debate that fully in a month or two (I have to write a research paper on evolution anyways, so that just give me more reason to read them).
Focusing on the fossils though.
I believe there was a great flood and that we live in the post-diluvian(sp?) time (post-diluvian: after flood). Science has proven that a cataclysmic(sp? what's up with my spelling? lol) event such as a sudden large flood can account for massive fossilization and for things such as the Grand Canyon, etc.
What I think you're leaning towards with your question however, is a combination of the two topics. Fossils that "prove" evolution.
I'll start with dinosaurs. As a Christian, I have never doubted the existance of dinosaurs, well, before the flood. The Bible itself refers to the Behemoth and the Leviathan (please correct me if I'm wrong, I've gotten the names wrong before).
For fossils that show the "instar" stages of evolution. (I use instar because the system of incomplete metamorphosis is similar to macroevolution, barring the whole shedding of skin thing :P )
I'm not saying that people didn't look different and didn't have different bone structures way back when. You can see changing bone structures in the face (imo the most noticible area) with each new generation. But there are some people who have claimed that they've found fossils of the so-called "missing-link". There are many cases throughout history where people have found fossils or bones and recreated skeletal structures incorrectly. This is how we got the "cyclops". I can't find a reference right now, but it was outside some Greek town I think. They found bones, put them together wrong (probably bones from separate species) and got the form of a rather large human with a single eye socket.
no what i meant was there have been fossils that have been dated back before the time of man so that means either the dating is wrong or man wasn't here since the beginning
and as for the bible i think many aspects of it are true but i think much if it is just made up and a very large portion of it is embellished as stories tend to become when passed from one person to another for example there was this one part in the bible where some character or another i think it was moses was opposing some egyptian person or another (i don't know much about this) and supposedly god turned flowers into snakes or was it a staff i don't remember but the point is a story like that could easily have been something totally different and when passed on through a few people could be drastically altered before the writer wrote it
also there have been many people who interpret the bible in many different ways over the years having only read a small portion of it myself i can only assume that much of it means many different things to different people
and one thing i forgot to mention earlier while jesus may not have used christianity for earning money many of the churches did they would sell the people things like get out of hell free cards (i don't remember what they were actually called the the principle was the same) and they would use fear of excommunication as blackmail to get tax cuts and power
Sabre, it's really hard to read your posts. Please use periods. I'm not trying to be an ass, but it's impossible for me to add to this debate if I can't understand your posts.
fine i shall try to put in some periods here and there but don't expect them to be in the right places
Quote from: Sabre_of_Pain on April 18, 2008, 09:04:42 AM
fine i shall try to put in some periods here and there but don't expect them to be in the right places
Here, I'll help you out.
Quote from: Sabre_of_Pain on April 18, 2008, 09:04:42 AM
Fine I shall try to put in some periods here and there. Don't expect them to be in the right places.
That is where they go. Just put them where you would pause while talking.
Getting grammar advice from me. =X
Quote from: Sabre_of_Pain on April 18, 2008, 03:46:19 AM
(i don't know much about this)
If you dont know much about a subject, why are you using it in a debate?
Quote from: shadowdude on April 18, 2008, 05:28:16 PM
Quote from: Sabre_of_Pain on April 18, 2008, 03:46:19 AM
(i don't know much about this)
If you dont know much about a subject, why are you using it in a debate?
Because those who do know about the subject can add on to it.
@Sabre : One method used to date fossils is carbon dating. The problem with carbon dating is that it's all relative. If I think a rock is 20 million years old and I find a skeleton of something that died 20 years before the rock was formed, I automatically assume the skeleton is 20,000,020 years old. Once again, this is relative. If the rock was really only 300 years old then my initial hypothesis of the skeleton's age is far from correct.
There's another method used to date fossils where they are dated based on the layer of earth they're found in. (I forget the name) For example, the deeper you dig into the earth, the older the layers of earth are. This can be used in conjunction with carbon dating to "prove" fossils existed millions of years ago. This is where I'm going to bring in a theory known as the Omphalos hypothesis (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-creation-theory.htm).
I personally believe that God created the Earth in its mature form. That is to say it was already a huge (well, tiny compared to the stars) clump of earth and all vegetation and life was in its adult or mature stage. The time it would take the layers of earth to form (apart from this divine act)
would take millions of years. The reason I believe in a mature earth is if God created a young earth with young vegetation and young people, it would have failed. The people would have been too young to gather their own food. Assuming the earth was young and the people were mature, there wouldn't be any food and by the time the animals and vegetation had developed to the point they could be used for consumption mankind would have already died of starvation.
I agree with your last comment. The church (or more specifically, the Roman Catholic Church *traditional*) did indeed use Christianity to get economic benefits. The "get out of Hell free card" you speak of is the concept of indulgences. For example: You rape a woman, pay the church $5.00 and your sin is forgiven. This is not supported by the Bible or any of the Christ's teachings.
That, however, was humans using something Godly for their benefit. A majority of Christians (or at least the ones who have read the Bible and haven't been brainwashed) don't agree with the concept of indulgences.
Though, no offense intended: The point you're trying to make about how Christianity benefited people would only work if Christianity benefited people from its conception.
I have people waiting to get on the computer, I'll be right back in a bit. (I'll get to moses, the staff, etc. then)
This thread should be locked seeing as you can't start a debate over something you don't know too much about
Or
Can't be proven right or wrong.
i don't care what your opinion is. i'm having fun and learning things that i otherwise wouldn't have learned. if you don't have something to contribute to this debate, go away
I wasn't stating my opinion, this isn't supposed to be "fun"
You can't prove religion right or wrong.
Quote from: Sabre_of_Pain on April 18, 2008, 10:20:06 PM
i don't care what your opinion is.
Cant really say that here, since everyone has an opinion, cant really say you dont care.
Quote from: shadowdude on April 18, 2008, 10:58:41 PM
Quote from: Sabre_of_Pain on April 18, 2008, 10:20:06 PM
i don't care what your opinion is.
Cant really say that here, since everyone has an opinion, cant really say you dont care.
That's your opinion :V . lol
From what I see Sabre is genuinely trying to understand why people who are religious believe what they believe.
The point of a debate is to share ideas and answer each others questions. If you leave a debate and haven't learned anything, then the debate wasn't very productive. Part of a debate is listening to what other people have to say instead of thinking of your rebuttal before they finish speaking.
If there are willing debators then the topic shouldn't be closed. Just because you disagree to a topic being open doesn't mean others won't benefit from it.
Thread fails. :lock: