More of a Rant than a DebateI watched the louis theroux show on BBC 2 last night and found the religion to be full of holes:
They said they back God 100%... If he makes some one die of Cancer, if he knocks down the twin towers... It all happens down to us being sinners...So what about when God creates some one who is gay... or feel they are trapped in the wrong sex body...?
If they are so trusting that God is all was 100% right and God creates all then how can they explain away God Creating a Gay person...?
The Bible can be looked at any way you want, you could almost make a religion based on any thing being evil from it... It's not an intelligent read, and for people to base so much of their life on it to the point that they pickett at a funeral is just sick.
Funeral's are for people letting go of a loved one... It's a time that the soul is supposed to cross over, their bodies buried in Holy Ground blessed by the church it's self... For the Westboro worshipers to be saying the dead are burning in hell is WRONG...
I think the way they are carrying on and bad mouthing those giving their lives to try and make a difference to the world is SICK...
It's a Shame really... the eldest daughter (21) seemed pretty smart and fairly good looking. I don't know why they would want to appear on TV inciting so much predijuice towards their fellow American's even if they are Gay... And to being doing it and preaching that is God's words is so wrong... The Bible was written by Jesus's followers, not God himself... Jesus was no more than a profit at best.
Why would God bother with words... if he hated Gay people he would strike them down himself... and if the Westboro Church is right then God will judge them any way... Whats 70 or 80 years when you imortal... a Human life time is a blink of an eye to a God... Why bother making such a song and dance about it...
Westboro Baptist Church should just mind their own bussiness... If they hate Gay's so much they shoudl pickett at Gay clubs and Gay perades and so fourth... NOT AT FUNERALS or other churches grounds... For them to pickett other churches makes them blasthemers also.
What's your thaughts on the whole Gays will burn in hell and this church as a whole ?
God hasn't stricken down anyone in a long time, I called him on it, and he didn't even smite me a little.
Well I can give you an answer to the why part; God creates homosexual desires as a test ;8
Personally I don't see a difference between churches like this (hell, even Christianity in a whole) as being any different then the Ku Klux Klan. Really, one inspires hatred of ethnics, the other homosexuals. Christians who don't tolerate and accept the KKK? Hypocritical.
I feel that these groups are bringing down society and twisting the idea of an accepting morality. I know first hand how these cults (any, hate inspiring religion) can twist a persons logic to accept anything. Christians, and other similar groups, may say they don't hate gays, and perhaps even like some, but I can promise that the majority feel they deserve to burn in hell for eternity, because it's a "choice".
It's things like this as to why I'm so apposed to religion, it's also why I wont tolerate it (as in I'm going to tell people off who preach anti-tolerance about gays).
QuoteWell I can give you an answer to the why part; God creates homosexual desires as a test
I guess that would be the answer I would get from a Westboro Baptist, but why would God be so Evil to condem a creation of his own to Hell from the word go...?
Westboro see God as America's Terrorist and he striked down the twin towers... Killing all those people.
In my Eye's Murder is far worst than being Gay... And that's what the attack on the Twin Towers was it was mass murder and to attribute that act to God (If there is such a devine entery) is being foolish... If that's what they truely follow that would make Bin Larden a tool of God, or God's right hand man... But they have Gay people in Iraq too.
I am not keen on the activities of the Gay community and I veiw it with a slight standoffish approach, I have a Lesbian relative and two of my friends are Gay and have stong relationships with the same sex, I don't approve or disaprove, I don't care it's not for me to say what's right and what's wrong.
When the bible was written we knew nothing of the human brain or the chemicals envolved in what makes us fancey the oppersite sex or the same sex... It's becoming for more apparent that the chemical make up of some carries more charteristics of the oppersite sex... So a Male harbouring a fair amount of female genes... There's is only one chromosone that seperates us...
For the Daughters of the Westboro church to be denying them selves a relationship that may continue their blood line is going against nature as much as Gay's are going against the bible...
I hate the way the Bible messes with people's lives... Say if every one joined Westboro, and we did out all the Gays, and all the women has no intrest in men or desier to carry or procreate, the human race would end.
And say if again their faith is correct and we are all going to burn in Hell... If Heaven and Hell ever came to have a War, Hell's Army would kick arse against Heavens puney force.
There has to be an equal balance, almost every other religion preaches this...
(Being Arl aint too bad my Rep Keeps going up now)
QuoteI guess that would be the answer I would get from a Westboro Baptist, but why would God be so Evil to condem a creation of his own to Hell from the word go...?
Because this is a god created by man, in the image of man.
QuoteWestboro see God as America's Terrorist and he striked down the twin towers... Killing all those people.
In my Eye's Murder is far worst than being Gay... And that's what the attack on the Twin Towers was it was mass murder and to attribute that act to God (If there is such a devine entery) is being foolish... If that's what they truely follow that would make Bin Larden a tool of God, or God's right hand man... But they have Gay people in Iraq too.
Why discuss "why"? Religion has a strong influence over people, from my point of view, I can ask "why" anyone would believe in any of the man-made religions in today's world, but I don't, as there is no need. People believe this because they have been raised in this light, and have been subjected to propaganda all their lives.
We should really be discussing whether it's acceptable for a group of people, to be teaching others to hate homosexuals, not why they feel that way.
Quote
When the bible was written we knew nothing of the human brain or the chemicals envolved in what makes us fancey the oppersite sex or the same sex... It's becoming for more apparent that the chemical make up of some carries more charteristics of the oppersite sex... So a Male harbouring a fair amount of female genes... There's is only one chromosone that seperates us...
Brainwashing/stupidity, doesn't really matter what we "know" now, nothing has more salesmanship then religion.
QuoteI hate the way the Bible messes with people's lives... Say if every one joined Westboro, and we did out all the Gays, and all the women has no intrest in men or desier to carry or procreate, the human race would end.
1) The majority of Christian groups (they are a Christian denomination right?) teach negative attitudes against gays. 2) LOL, their women don't have sex?? I'm going to have to check in on what they teach...
Quote
And say if again their faith is correct and we are all going to burn in Hell... If Heaven and Hell ever came to have a War, Hell's Army would kick arse against Heavens puney force.
What?
Quote
There has to be an equal balance, almost every other religion preaches this...
Equal balance of what? And why would they have to? I don't remember any religion wielding the flag of rationality.
QuoteEqual balance of what? And why would they have to? I don't remember any religion wielding the flag of rationality.
Budisium and others like Tao... An Equal Balance of good and Evil... Ying and Yang...
If the Westboro Baptist members are the only ones to reach heaven then God's Army is only going to have a few angles... But Hell's will have many a Demon.
I don't know enough about the Bible to be Quoting it... Heaven Vs Hell and them being equally as strong else one would over throw the other... Light and Darkness all that bollox and mumbo jumbo.
I am LOS by the way
(Some stupid Arl april fools thing has replaced all Ava's and stuff... Not funny just lame)... And pretty much every member on here knows I dislike the Bible.
QuoteWe should really be discussing whether it's acceptable for a group of people, to be teaching others to hate homosexuals, not why they feel that way.
Good Call "Arl"...
The show I watched last night showed kids about 5 years old holding the banners and signs, GOD HATES FAG TROOPS and louis theroux asked the child what the sign ment the kid had no idea...
Some one drove past in a car and chucked a Slush Puppy like drink and it struck one of the kids in the face... the liquid could have so easyily been acid... He was only About 8 and Ginger, he can't help being Ginger as much as a Gay person can help being Gay...
I don't think marching your Kids about the streets holding banners and signs that they don't understand leaving them open for attack is a good idea in the slightest.
The Children have no friends outside of the church and don't want friends outside the church... they don't see the point as they wont see them in the after life... TWISTED !!!
Just sent them a Message:-
QuoteHello,
I know it's wrong to go against nature and to have a same sex relationship...
(I wouldn't say God as far as I am aware God didn't write the bible and Jesus didn't write any chapters either)...
But watching the program and seeing how the Girls are sort of restricted in taking up a relationship is also kind of against nature... I know some people that give them selves to God and his preachings stay celebut, but Jesus had a child and went to France with his child and other half, they celebrate his coming to the shores yearly.
The Bibile (What I have read of it) can be looked at in what ever way you see fit... (I was given a New Testiment when I was 12).
I see Jesus as a Profit, not the Son of God... I have many reasons for not following a religion, I know your church isn't about gaining members, it's about showing the world as a pretty pervus place...
I kind of agree with you, priests are now giving unions between same sex couples yet just a few years ago most churches had the same mind set as your own... Are they just being Weak to try and up their numbers... I think so... So in that respect I think it's good you have held your faith true to the bible.
The Bible keeps getting re-written to suite the times, and looses some thing every time that happens, one of the many reasons I have no taken up the same faith as many English born and bread... I do respect your ideals, but they way your going about it and picketting at Funerals of dead soilders is very off... The soilders are being put to rest in holy ground (Yes, may be blessed by a faulse profit in your eye's)...
How could those soilders be put to rest in without you picketting, what would they need to do ?... I mean can the moarners repent, or approach your church requesting you not to be there ?...
I know you would not want those sort of signs appearing at funerals of your loved ones, for what ever reason... It did shake me slightly to see how devoted even the youngest of your members are and how they have been drafted in to hold signs they barely understand...
You all seem like very nice people in the show I watched, your eldest daughter of 21 came across very well... May be the only one saving grace your church had in the show, and the fact you have a VERY string religious centre that wont be changed.
It's not the American people fault they are blind to the points you are making... if any ones it's the goverment it's self... After all Bush claims God told him to go to war... The soilders that have gone to Iraq may have been in the Army long before the War even started, wrong place at the wrong time... And many see the War to be pointless and may even have simular views as your own... I don't think their place of rest is fair to be picketted...
You should take your work to places like Gay Bars, the White house, May be at a push Army recruitment centres... But a Church giving a ceramony to a loved one trying to send the sould of that person onto the next life is kind of disrespecting all other versions of the faith...
Their are many branches of Christianity, and some I think are much stranger than your own... Like the talking in tounges rubbish and so fourth appearing all over the USA... At least you are reading the Gospel and not trying to converse with God... if any one is mental it's those people over you...
And I think you are far from being the worst family in the USA... You don't deal drug's you don't go shooting people... your not hurting any one pysically only mentally...
When I say that I think your teaching the younger children to be predijuice... Gay people can't help being Gay, just as much as a Ginger person can help being Ginger...
If God is 100% right all the time, then he has to be right when he created a Gay or Ginger person...
I don't know enough about the Bible or what the word of God should be, I hope I have not offended you in any way with my Nieve approach... I have no religion or faith... I have no argueement with Gay people, I am not offended by them neither do I approve of their activity... I am impartial to both sides, religion and sexual orentaion to me are very little factors in our time on this planet, side lines... they don't make us who we are, we should never label ourselves as some thing... You are you, and blaming some thing for your actions is always wrong in my eye's... we are all responicple for what we say or do.
I found your view's interesting... I don't see why some many are up in arms about it... most of the modren world would have been out there with you 50 years ago... It's odd how the words in the Gospel have been altered in the last few years...
And the world is a Pervurse place... You know the Muslim and Hindu Faith's have very little time for Gay's and still outcast them to a degree, and their faith's stem back much further than that of the Bible... They have some great Gods and good theories in Demons...
I have looked at many religion's trying to find one I like... But I have yet to have found it... I would not join yours, but I wish it all the best... But most poeple in the USA are brainwashed by the flag, Bush and the leaders of the churches who back same sex relationships...
Your fighting a loosing battle... But in a country so fond of Democricy I don't see why they wont at least give you the time of day for your opions... I mean the air this Crud:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRwoAZgQf6c
Just so you know there is a least one person who doesn't hate you or think your the Worst family ever... I don't agree with you, but I am not religious and don't agree 100% with any religion... (I respect your holding of the original Gospel, and you not bending on Benders)... Not that I agree with that, I don't hate Gay people at all.
But that aside... Please cut back on the picketting of Funeral's... I know if you appeared at one of my loved ones with those signs I would be greatly saddend... No one in my family are Gay, I have friends that are... Some Gay people are the nicest people I know... Get to know them, try approaching them and try and understand them, heck try baptising them see if you can "cure" them... If it's the Devils work surely if you are blessed by God you can do some thing... (I doubt it, as God I think has no Power on changing the minds of people)
I think if God was that angry with them he would have blown away gay bars with lightning bolts by now... Or made some sort of Virus much worse than aids that lived in the backpassage...
Any way I think I have wrote enough.
Thanks for your time
Steve
Who can define what's gay and what's straight, if I make out with a guy that I find attractive, does that make me gay?
There are guys I consider attractive, and there are guys I think look extremely ugly, and the same goes for women, some women are attractive, others are not.
Does that make everyone who finds some women unattractive, gay too?
It's a rather thin line.
Quote from: landofshadowsWhat's your thaughts on the whole Gays will burn in hell and this church as a whole ?
All churches are an affront to christianty.
Quote from: Deliciously_SaucyEqual balance of what? And why would they have to? I don't remember any religion wielding the flag of rationality.
Or maybe you just don't feel like seeing the rationality in the religions because it differs from your personal view of what is and isn't rational.
To you science and logic may be the pinnacle of human understanding, but that's your worldview and like everything else in the world it's relative.
Quote from: landofshadowsBudisium and others like Tao... An Equal Balance of good and Evil... Ying and Yang...
Yin and Yang don't represent good and evil, the concepts of good and evil are definite and Yin and Yang are like the Ouroboros, they transcend into eachother as they reach their full. (This is symbolized by the white dot in the Yin and the black dot in the Yang.)
Besides, most religions practice acceptance, theres no need to bother with other people, if they want to be gay, let them, it's not your problem.
Quote from: Matthew 7:1Do not judge upon that you may not be judged. For with what judgement you judge, you shall be judged.
Yay for google.
QuoteJust sent them a Message:-
Post up the response if you get one.
QuoteWho can define what's gay and what's straight, if I make out with a guy that I find attractive, does that make me gay?
There are guys I consider attractive, and there are guys I think look extremely ugly, and the same goes for women, some women are attractive, others are not.
Does that make everyone who finds some women unattractive, gay too?
It's a rather thin line.
Lol, yeah, your gay.
Quote
Or maybe you just don't feel like seeing the rationality in the religions because it differs from your personal view of what is and isn't rational.
Yer, that's almost the definition of what an opinion is.
QuoteTo you science and logic may be the pinnacle of human understanding, but that's your worldview and like everything else in the world it's relative.
>_>, uh yeah, I do think logic to be some what swell, I can see you don't... As to the science part... You do understand it's not a preset thing..? Science is constantly changing, and correcting itself, quite sad religion isn't.
QuoteQuoteDo not judge upon that you may not be judged. For with what judgement you judge, you shall be judged.
Yay for google.
Wtf is quoting a single bible passage going to do? I also remember something about cleansing them with fire.
Seems they doth not know how to not contradict thyself!
QuoteDo not judge upon that you may not be judged. For with what judgement you judge, you shall be judged.
That is probably the most retarded translation of that passage I have ever heard. Regardless, that is pretty much the way most of the mainstream Christian religions approach the subject. This mainly translates into "hate the sin, not the sinner." which suffers from bad phrasing, but is what is taught.
I am not exactly sure what the offense is here. What is it that the family did? It sounds like you are saying they picketed a funeral, but whose funeral? The title suggests a gay man's, but I thought I read something about it being a soldier's or something ... I also have no idea what this means:
QuoteSay if every one joined Westboro, and we did out all the Gays, and all the women has no intrest in men or desier to carry or procreate, the human race would end.
I am fairly certain that if the women had no desire to procreate, the human race would end regardless if we all joined Westboro. Maybe some clarification?
Anyway, yeah, I think picketing a funeral is bad, and hatred based on sexuality is bad too (well, all hatred is bad). However, I also think that it is unlikely that whatever authority is behind the Baptist Church would approve of these actions, and so I think it is unfair to generalize it and blame it on the baptists. That being said, I do not know specifically what Baptists believe in this respect and so I suppose it is possible and in that case I will say that what they are doing is bad. I do think it unlikely though, unless they decided to ignore the New Testament, which is unlikely.
Kind of off-topic:
[spoiler]
QuoteWtf is quoting a single bible passage going to do? I also remember something about cleansing them with fire. Seems they doth not know how to not contradict thyself!
As much as the phrasing made me laugh, it is not a very effective argument. Most Christians believe that the coming of Jesus changed the way in which God interacts with humanity. In most of Christianity, the Old Testament's laws, particularly it's punishments, do not carry over past the time of Jesus. Evidence for this is found throughout the New Testament - this is not an isolated passage. Jesus even revises the ten commandments into two. I do not know what you intend to accomplish by attacking beliefs that nobody holds. The Old Testament is taken seriously by Christians as an account of humanity's relationship with God, but the laws were revised with the coming of Jesus. In particular, forgiveness of sins. Even though the things condemned in the Old Testament are still considered to be sins, neither punishment nor hatred are advocated. That can be seen pretty much everywhere in the New Testament, and Christianity is, not surprisingly, based on Christ. If you are going to try to attack Christianity, you have to attack the words and actions of Christ, not the Old Testament.[/spoiler]
Quote from: Deliciously_Saucy on April 02, 2007, 08:45:13 PM
>_>, uh yeah, I do think logic to be some what swell, I can see you don't...
I find logic to be of little use since it doesn't apply to humanity, we do things just because we can, completely independant from logic and rationality.
It's the source of alot of fucked up things, but also of the greatest things in life derive from our creativity.
Elegy QuoteWho can define what's gay and what's straight, if I make out with a guy that I find attractive, does that make me gay?
There are guys I consider attractive, and there are guys I think look extremely ugly, and the same goes for women, some women are attractive, others are not.
Does that make everyone who finds some women unattractive, gay too?
I would say your young and still trying to find out who you are... or your Bi-Sexual.
modern algebra Try Wikki on Westboro Baptist Church or U-Tube even... I mean the mosted hated family in the USA (According to BBC 2), the Phelp's...
Here go just encase you can't be asked:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church
And here is a link to all the You Tube video's:- http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Westboro+Baptist+Church&search=Search
No Reply as yet from them...
YING and YANG (Wikki Quote)QuoteYin is often symbolized by water or earth, while yang is symbolized by fire or wind.
Yin (the receptive, feminine, dark, passive force) and yang (the creative, masculine, bright, active force) are descriptions of complementary opposites rather than absolutes. Any yin/yang dichotomy can be viewed from another perspective. All forces in nature can be seen as having yin and yang states, and the two are in movement rather than held in absolute stasis.
In Western culture, the dichotomy of good and evil is often taken as a paradigm for other dichotomies. In Hegelian dialectics, dichotomies are linked to progress. In Chinese philosophy, the paradigmatic dichotomy of yin and yang does not generally give preference or moral superiority to one side of the dichotomy, and dichotomies are linked to cyclical processes rather than progress. Excessive yin or yang state is often viewed to be undesirable[citation needed]; however, Taoism often values yin above yang [1], and Confucianism often values yang above yin.
Gayness is not a sin because there is no such thing as sin. A god is what people make it, and most often its attributes are those of the men and women who create it. These people think their god hates gays because they hate gays.
I like this guy =) (contains alot of swearing)
www.godhatesfags.com
WTF
Yeah, I know about these guys... They also say that "the soldiers support the fags" They came to a soldier's funeral that was near where I live and were protesting. There was a group of old men who called our county sheriff and asked if they could sit across the road with thier guns. The sheriff said that they could but they would be arrested for not having a permit to be on that property. He said nothing about the guns... Note: I live in Arkansas.
It's strange that LoS is against Westboro but uses their terminology to refer to gays in this thread's title ("fags").
Okay, well these guys are just total lunatics. Is there anybody they don't hate? So far, by my count, it's Muslims, Mormons, Homosexuals, Jews, Catholics, America, Canada. Hell, they probably even hate Baptists. These guys are just retarded.
SaladinQuoteIt's strange that LoS is against Westboro but uses their terminology to refer to gays in this thread's title ("fags").
That's cuz their site is called:- www.godhatesfags.com
QuotePosted by: modern algebra
Okay, well these guys are just total lunatics. Is there anybody they don't hate? So far, by my count, it's Muslims, Mormons, Homosexuals, Jews, Catholics, America, Canada. Hell, they probably even hate Baptists. These guys are just retarded.
LOL... They are bonkers.
Quote from: landofshadows on April 03, 2007, 03:11:59 PM
Saladin
QuoteIt's strange that LoS is against Westboro but uses their terminology to refer to gays in this thread's title ("fags").
That's cuz their site is called:- www.godhatesfags.com
And if was called www.godhatesniggers.com would you put "nigger haters" in the title?
Yes... What's the point your trying to make ?
They hate Gays and reffer to them as Fag's... I am not calling Gay people Fags... I am using their terminology, as the thread started off as a Rant about them... And not many people know them as the Westboro Baptist Church, but if I say the Fag hater with refference to the church pretty much any one who watches the news will know who I mean.
Saladin if your not joining in with the debate, please go do some thing different... But just for you I have made the title a little more descriptive for you... and changed the word Fag to Gay.
Added the documentary to the first post, check it out:
http://rmrk.net/index.php/topic,14753.msg187489.html#msg187489
Who cares what other people do, or if everyone became homosexual? Humans suck anyways. Might as well do whatever you want to do, so long as it isn't hurting other people.
Quote from: landofshadows on April 03, 2007, 04:19:59 PM
I am not calling Gay people Fags...
Actually, it kind of implied you where...
Quote
Saladin if your not joining in with the debate, please go do some thing different... But just for you I have made the title a little more descriptive for you... and changed the word Fag to Gay.
I was going to mention it myself, but eh...
QuoteIf everyone becomes homo-sexual, where would all the babies go? That may lead to the end of the world
Did you even read that before you posted it?? Seriously, WTF.
First; I don't see how a few people being gay is going to turn the entire world queer, perhaps YOU can be sold into that position quite easily, but I guarantee most wouldn't be persuaded into homosexuality, unless it was already a dormant factor of their lives.
Second; Going by your obvious lack of knowledge that we're in the year 2oo7, we have something called artificial insemination and in vitro fertilisation. If we all turned gay, the world would continue to produce babies quite fine.
Third; THINK before you post, and remember, there is no way, at all, to justify being anti-homosexual. Please, feel free to continue posting, as this is a forum of free thinking and non-predigest, but I'm going to post right back.
Just saw the video and read what Louis actually thinks of the family on BBC 2. Overall I think it's rather sad.
These guys have all wrong and are interpretating the bible wrong. Christians are not soppose to be like and what they are saying most of it is false. Yes homosexuaility is wrong but that does not mean He hates them he just hates the wrong choices.
Quote from: cobragamer on April 04, 2007, 11:21:30 AM
These guys have all wrong and are interpretating the bible wrong. Christians are not soppose to be like and what they are saying most of it is false. Yes homosexuaility is wrong but that does not mean He hates them he just hates the wrong choices.
And even though he doesn't hate them (apparently he loves them), he still plans to have them tortured for eternity after death. Don't you just love their idea of "love"..?
Homosexuality isn't wrong or immoral. Why don't you think for yourself rather then letting your peers turn you into a gay-bashing homophobe.
What...the...heck...
Um, wow. What is there to say? This sounds more like a cult than anything else. Notice that the preacher wasn't anywhere near the protest?
There's so much wrong with this that I'm not sure I can even say anything.
he only allows people to go to heaven because they have accepted him and they realize they are sinners so he can forgive them. Yes he loves everybody but he can't have sin around him or in his presence
"See Holkeye's earlier post."
Then were do we get the system of write and wrong atheism did not create that and random chance does not create that kind of process.
We get the system of right and wrong the same place we get everything else. Trial and error. God didn't tell us what to think is right an wrong, humans came up with the concepts themselves.
Quote from: Holkeye on April 04, 2007, 08:19:33 PM
We get the system of right and wrong the same place we get everything else. Trial and error. God didn't tell us what to think is right an wrong, humans came up with the concepts themselves.
Then who decided murder is wrong? Surely not humans. The one in pain might protest, but without a pre-existing system of right and wrong, we wouldn't feel guilt and decide murder is wrong. In fact, we might actually kill people just because we think it's funny.
Humans did decide murder is wrong. People used to sacrifice humans to gods in ancient days, and then eventually those ways changed, and the word "murder" was born. Also, people do kill people all the time, in case you don't have a tv or a newspaper to do your own research.
But if being gay was wrong and looked down upon 100 years ago then why not make killing right to
Quote from: Holkeye on April 04, 2007, 08:26:13 PM
Humans did decide murder is wrong. People used to sacrifice humans to gods in ancient days, and then eventually those ways changed, and the word "murder" was born. Also, people do kill people all the time, in case you don't have a tv or a newspaper to do your own research.
But who decided it's wrong? I understand there's murderers out there who enjoy such things, but how do you explain a child who has never been told what murder is, seeing something about a killing in the news, and knowing that it's wrong?
LoLs at the uninformed.
Morality is something that happens due to (OMG!) evolution, that's right ;), and comes down to survival of the family. Even animals have a basic form of "morality" , they feel it's "right" to protect their young don't they...? They would think it's wrong to kill everyone in their tribe/group just for kicks (in most cases), right..? (and I don't think they've heard the word of god either...). Morality is a simple idea of survival, that is needed by both man and animal to survive, humans have a more complex morality, because we are more complex beings, that is all.
So no, we don't need an omnipotent being to tell us murder is wrong =)
If your going to reply "blah, blah, blah, some animals kills their own kind/similar" well morality is not black and white, it comes down to the best from of survival for that particular species. Good and evil are only defined by survival and cultural morality, which are different to all.
Tsuno - The children's parents raise him/her to the standards of their morals. Its the same way that you have been raised to be religious. Eventually, the parents influence becomes less and less, and the subject begins to make choices based on events in his/her own life. You aren't just born knowing what is right and wrong, because these are concepts made by humans.
cobragamer - I shouldn't even respond to that, but shame on you for putting murder and homosexuality on the same echelon. Also, killing is legal in certain situations such as war, or capital punishment. This has nothing to do with laws though.
Saucy - (you posted at the same time as I did.) I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I'm a little fuzzy on your concept of morality. Do you feel that morality evolved out of instinct, or that it is something that was ingrained in our minds the whole time?
Quote from: Holkeye on April 04, 2007, 08:42:59 PM
Tsuno - The children's parents raise him/her to the standards of their morals. Its the same way that you have been raised to be religious. Eventually, the parents influence becomes less and less, and the subject begins to make choices based on events in his/her own life. You aren't just born knowing what is right and wrong, because these are concepts made by humans.
Lol, once again I have to say - I wan't raised to be a Christian. I accepted Christ 2 years ago. Also, I knew it was wrong to murder people long before I even knew what it was.
@DS : The inner sense of right and wrong came from God. You don't get it from the Bible -- it's more of an instinct than a doctrine. Doctrines have to be pounded into you (usually), instinct you're born with. As for animals protecting their young, how is that sensing what is right or wrong? That seems to be more the animals protecting something they care for than anything else.
But I must ask, how exactly did
macroevolution create morals?
Nobody is talking about macroevolution. We're talking about the evolution of ideals and morals. If it was your choice to become a Christian, then it was based on your previous experiences, which I think I covered. Also, you can't say that you knew murder was bad before you knew what it was. You can't possibly remember your very early life, and imprinting takes hold even before you understand it. I find it hard to understand how anyone can think that there is a sentient god, but your belief is your belief, I'm not here to attack you for it.
Quote from: cobragamer on April 04, 2007, 08:29:27 PM
But if being gay was wrong and looked down upon 100 years ago then why not make killing right to
WTF?!I didn't even see this...
Listen here you gay bashing Christian, do you honestly believe homosexuality and murder to be the same fucking evil? How twisted your head must be.
If you would like me to be less aggressive, then perhaps you should give me some of your reasons why being gay, is such a horrible thing in your mind.
QuoteThen were do we get the system of write and wrong atheism did not create that and random chance does not create that kind of process.
Atheism being a relatively new thing, no, I don't think the atheist organisation could have possibly created morality. Perhaps you meant nature, or man??
QuoteThen were do we get the system of write and wrong atheism did not create that and random chance does not create that kind of process.
No, random chance would not create that kind of process (or at least it would be quite difficult), but shock oh my! It's not random! It's called natural
selection not "natural random mutation". It has nothing to do with random changes brining on everything. Do you even know what natural selection is??
QuoteThen who decided murder is wrong? Surely not humans. The one in pain might protest, but without a pre-existing system of right and wrong, we wouldn't feel guilt and decide murder is wrong. In fact, we might actually kill people just because we think it's funny.
Lol, what low respect you have for nature.
QuoteThe inner sense of right and wrong came from God.
Oh dear god...
QuoteAs for animals protecting their young, how is that sensing what is right or wrong? That seems to be more the animals protecting something they care for than anything else.
Lol, so then by your terms if a human protects their baby it has nothing to do with right and wrong? If we decide not to kill our child it has nothing to do with right and wrong..? What use is morality if not to further the species..? If it did not have a use, like survival, then it would be random and pointless, no?
Quote
But I must ask, how exactly did macroevolution create morals?
I'm sorry, is that a trick question?
How
evolution creates morality: As said above, it comes down to
survival. Simply put, if animals randomly killed and attacked their own kind, if they didn't care about protecting their young at even the cost of their own lives, then they wouldn't exist. The idea that murder (in the same species) is wrong is easily brought by this concept, if you
don't just kill your own for kicks, then I assure you that the species is going to have a larger chance to survive. As to the whole human sacrifice thing; weren't they sacrificing because of
religion??.
Out of all the space wasted typing "lols" to people's ignorance in that post, you didn't answer my question. I read that whole thing, and didn't find what I was looking for.
Quote from: Holkeye on April 04, 2007, 09:15:45 PM
Out of all the space wasted typing "lols" to people's ignorance in that post, you didn't answer my question. I read that whole thing, and didn't find what I was looking for.
Edited it in after I read the original... Didn't see your question
Quote
Saucy - (you posted at the same time as I did.) I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I'm a little fuzzy on your concept of morality. Do you feel that morality evolved out of instinct, or that it is something that was ingrained in our minds the whole time?
I feel morality evolves/evolved, and it's not something pre-ingrained.
Then what stopped the first human from killing the second one and ending our civilization.
Quote from: cobragamer on April 04, 2007, 09:39:29 PM
Then what stopped the first human from killing the second one and ending our civilization.
Because I don't believe that humans just magically popped up one day ^.~
One of the ancestral lines of who we where would have already obtained this ideal, it being a basic (somewhat universal) morality.
How morality forms, and how the rhino got it's horn fall under the same basic process of NS.
Humans aren't intelligent enough to create something like morals.
I was going to just delete the above post, but I'll instead just say if I see another like it after this, it'll go.
About the animal post ok if animals know instict then How come none of them start a homo clan and start being fags together
Quote from: cobragamer on April 05, 2007, 01:02:32 AM
About the animal post ok if animals know instict then How come none of them start a homo clan and start being fags together
Lol, you unlearned fool. MANY animals are involved in homosexual relationships! In the dolphins case, they on many occasions start a monogamous relationship with the same gender (yer, a sexual one). Don't drop out of school, seriously.
Thats pathetic, when they went though the rooms, they were asked if they had bfs, and they said they cant serve thems selves, them must serve god...
God is a supposedly all-powerful being....he doesnt need servents!!!
Yes silverline, because I spam the most in these forums, it's fine that you have a personal vendetta against me, but don't think I'm grateful that you "spared" my post.
Quote from: Elegy on April 05, 2007, 01:18:58 AM
Yes silverline, because I spam the most in these forums, it's fine that you have a personal vendetta against me, but don't think I'm grateful that you "spared" my post.
Are you even serious? For the longest time I was mutual on you whilst everyone else seemed to dislike or even hate you. I'd have done the same if anybody had posted that.
If anything Elegy, we're more tolerant of you then other people. If any one else had made that comment about "women being whores" I would have deleted it instantly, but I didn't. I assure you that can change if you like, stop being such an ass.
So it just because I've offended you that my opinion is considered spam then?
Twisting my words saucy, reality isn't politically correct.
Any consequences suffered from acting in a certain manner is directly to blame on that individual.
Elegy
Saying as you did on Women is kind of correct, when you look at how many Christian Weddings last, and how many end in divorse due to one of the people having an affair... The number ratio is steadly getting higher that it's the woman that cheats on the male, or at least gets caught or owns up to it...
For some reason the Christian Vaules of Marriage are not as strong as those in other faith's... And they could be in part the woman have equal rights, infact they get more rights, they get the children 9 times out of 10, the house and pretty much every thing else... It's too easy for a Christian home to be pulled apart.
In Japan the Woman have respect, but they give it in spades to their husbands, the divorse figures are much lower in the Eastern world, and respect has a higher value...
The Bible is Pervus and the western world is slowly going to pot... Most of our nations thanks to equallity and freedom have now become a breeding ground for adultry and scum to frive in... There are too many state hand outs and people know there is always a safety net...
It's only going to get worse...
I think we should slowly turn our backs on religion, as it's changing too much, it has no weight...
Back on topic
The Westboro Baptist Church also has it all extreamly wrong, rather than giving up the bible they are trying to re-write it in their own way...
Quote from: landofshadows on April 03, 2007, 04:19:59 PMI am not calling Gay people Fags... I am using their terminology, as the thread started off as a Rant about them...
"Fag" is a slur against a minority (as well as a British colloquialism for cigarette, but, we aren't talking about Brits) and using fags in the title would be like a news article with "niggers being targeted by hate groups" as a title.
QuoteAnd not many people know them as the Westboro Baptist Church, but if I say the Fag hater with refference to the church pretty much any one who watches the news will know who I mean.
Actually, pretty much anyone familiar with Westboro will probably know them by that name. Someone who uses the phrase "fag hater" doesn't do anything but show that they are, at best, backwards. Do you call Hezbollah "Kike haters"?
QuoteSaladin if your not joining in with the debate, please go do some thing different... But just for you I have made the title a little more descriptive for you... and changed the word Fag to Gay.
I'm just wondering how someone who thinks it's okay to call gays fags can expect to be taken seriously when discussing Westboro Baptist Church or any other group which opposes homosexuality.
Quote from: Saladin on April 08, 2007, 01:57:20 AM
"Fag" is a slur against a minority (as well as a British colloquialism for cigarette, but, we arern't talking about Brits) and using fags in the title would be like a newscaster referring to blacks as "niggers" because the Klansman in the report called them that, too.
This isn't a news report.
QuoteActually, pretty much anyone familiar with Westboro will probably know them by that name. Someone who uses the phrase "fag hater" doesn't do anything but show that they are, at best, backwards. Do you call Hezbollah "Kike haters"?
I'm just wondering how someone who thinks it's okay to call gays fags can expect to be taken seriously when discussing Westboro Baptist Church or any other group which opposes homosexuality.
That's your opinion. I am not prejudiced against homosexuals, but I still call people fags. The world doesn't always follow the rules to the letter. You'd do well to learn that.
Quote from: Holkeye on April 08, 2007, 02:03:35 AM
Quote from: Saladin on April 08, 2007, 01:57:20 AM
"Fag" is a slur against a minority (as well as a British colloquialism for cigarette, but, we arern't talking about Brits) and using fags in the title would be like a newscaster referring to blacks as "niggers" because the Klansman in the report called them that, too.
This isn't a news report.
QuoteActually, pretty much anyone familiar with Westboro will probably know them by that name. Someone who uses the phrase "fag hater" doesn't do anything but show that they are, at best, backwards. Do you call Hezbollah "Kike haters"?
I'm just wondering how someone who thinks it's okay to call gays fags can expect to be taken seriously when discussing Westboro Baptist Church or any other group which opposes homosexuality.
That's your opinion. I am not prejudiced against homosexuals, but I still call people fags. The world doesn't always follow the rules to the letter. You'd do well to learn that.
I call people fags, too, but I don't do it in a serious setting because I know it's not appropriate. "Fag"
is a slur, just like kike, spic, and nigger. Do you think it's okay to use these words in, say, a school project?
"George Washington Carver was a famous nigger scientist..."
This isn't a school project. Its a forum.
Quote from: Holkeye on April 08, 2007, 02:16:58 AM
This isn't a school project. Its a forum.
People are supposed to be serious in here, right? They are expected to be taken seriously? How can they be when they think that "fag" is an acceptable substitute for "gay" in a setting such as this?
Holkeye, he was giving an example. Saladin, LOS was using the term as the fag haters use the term...
Both of you - the title changed. Simple as that! :tpg:
These Westboro Baptist Church people need bullets lodged into their brains. That's going too extreme I know... but they should spread their 'word' in a positive way. Not picketing at 'dead fag soldier' funerals.
Nobody has to be that serious, just not an idiot. Also, you are getting away from the topic at hand. If you don't like it, don't post, but it doesn't seem to bother anyone else. Ataraxy, I can speak and learn for myself. You have got to stop doing that, its really annoying.
The good thing is that I can speak for both of you! Shut up and get back to topic. Also, having "Fag" in the title as a descriptive word is going to wield negative results, but that was fixed.
No more posts about the fucking topic name.
What are you, some type of mod-type person or something? The conversation, as it was, was not about the title only. It was about the use of the word "fag". I think if instead of having an itchy posting finger, you would've read back a little farther and seen that for yourself.
Why did I bother to try and change the topic back to what it's meant to be? You're always correcting me Holk, I didn't think you'd mind if I tried to correct you...
Quote from: Holkeye on April 08, 2007, 02:26:21 AM
You have got to stop doing that, its really annoying.
I never speak for you. :o I was just trying to get the topic back on track.
Quote from: Holkeye on April 08, 2007, 07:10:19 AM
What are you, some type of mod-type person or something? The conversation, as it was, was not about the title only. It was about the use of the word "fag". I think if instead of having an itchy posting finger, you would've read back a little farther and seen that for yourself.
Oh, and this is a discussion on the usage of the word "fag" in current society..? My bad, going by the topic title I assumed it was about Westboro Baptist Church. I read all of your posts, I view all posts in this section. Don't go into your emo corner because I'm trying to keep a topic clean. If you want to make a topic about your discussion, then feel free.
Notice how many of these debates get locked? It's because people tend to fight in them and there is no alternative but to end them. It's either me telling you to get back on topic and be civil, or the debate gets locked.
Nobody was arguing, just talking. If a debate didn't go out on similar tangents, following a flow, it would get stale. I think a debate on an organization that uses the word "fag" so liberally warrants the discussion. Now that you have both felt the need to break the flow, the post turns into this. I figured that DS would know this already, considering she has done it before. You'll also see that I noted the fact that the convo was straying from the topic. Ruling with a heavy hand isn't always the best solution. Some people in here are smart enough to handle themselves without a babysitter. Lock the topic if you will, but its pretty ridiculous to do so.
It's expected that a topic (especially a debate) is going to go through several sub-topics. In this case it seems ok, but if you really wanted to, you could just split the posts to a new fag topic.
Either way I think locking the topic is unnecessary, it hasn't spun out of control like the others, and most of the others were locked because morons like Elegy were just making up crap to make people angry, and the debate wasn't going anywhere. This topic is doing ok.
SaladinQuoteActually, pretty much anyone familiar with Westboro will probably know them by that name. Someone who uses the phrase "fag hater" doesn't do anything but show that they are, at best, backwards. Do you call Hezbollah "Kike haters"?
I have explained why I names the title as I did...Their own WEB address procreates their hate and uses term "fags"... And as you know us Britt's don't use the term Fags all too often so I don't see it as offencive as you would... But any way I have changed it
...(Gay Hate Banner welding Nutters) suites it better I think ::)
Back on TopicI have had no reply from them as yet, and I doubt I will at this stage...
They have however started listing the places they will start picketting:-
QuoteWalker United Methodist Church 101 S. Ely St. This is for the funeral of Army Reserve Spc. Matthew T. Wiley. He was killed in a truck accident, immediately dispatched into Hell, for signing on for the wrong cause, to fight for a nation of perverts who has gone the way of Sodom and Gomorrah and has done WORSE: Mt 11:23- And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day (Those Sodomites would have REPENTED if they had seen the works of Christ) 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee (This nation!).
Has any one on here had any direct contact with the Westboro Baptist Church ?