Music Theory

No, Silver's saying he doesn't know any music theory. Which is a lie, by the way. You know theory, Silver, you just don't know the terms. You can learn music theory without actually being taught music theory. Most of it's very easy to just pick up by listening to other music and messing around with an instrument or some composition software.

Truth. It's quite easy to tell the difference between a major and minor chord, and I hardly know the conventions of either one.

No, Silver's saying he doesn't know any music theory. Which is a lie, by the way. You know theory, Silver, you just don't know the terms. You can learn music theory without actually being taught music theory. Most of it's very easy to just pick up by listening to other music and messing around with an instrument or some composition software.

Truth. It's quite easy to tell the difference between a major and minor chord, and I hardly know the conventions of either one.

Yet that's barely scratching the surface of music theory. Yes, you can learn chords, scales, usage of dynamics, etc. on your own just by composing, and random other things, but a very large portion of it is very unlikely that you'll just figure out on your own.

I think that's debatable. You can learn a ton about music theory without being taught any of it, but the thing is, you won't know what any of it's called. You know what a diminished chord sounds like, but you don't know that's it's called a diminished chord. You know?

guys dont make a big fight over this.
all big fights start like this.

Nonsense. Halo's too level-headed to let an argument get out of control, and that'll keep me in check too.

Arlen did u hear them?

Not yet. I'll listen to them tomorrow.

guys dont make a big fight over this.
all big fights start like this.

We are not fighting, we're discussing our views very calmly. It's nowhere near a fight.

I think that's debatable. You can learn a ton about music theory without being taught any of it, but the thing is, you won't know what any of it's called. You know what a diminished chord sounds like, but you don't know that's it's called a diminished chord. You know?

Yes, true, and I agree on that point, I just didn't really explain my other post very well. There are things to learn such as getting the most out of each key (which could be debated that you could learn that on your own as well to an extent, but not entirely), transposing properly (which isn't needed unless your printing music for performance anyway), proper instrumentation (using MIDI can effect this greatly. What sounds good in MIDI doesn't mean it will sound good in a performance. Would you use a xylophone in a lyrical passage? On MIDI it would sound fine, but in real life a xylophone is too harsh.), and about a bazillion other things.

Then again, unless you're an arranger/orchestrator/composer for orchestra/concert band, 80% of music theory is unnecessary. So, people writing music, such as Nightwolf, for fun, or people writing music for video games, don't need all of that music theory, and then as you and I said, it can be learned on your own, without knowing you've learned it. And you'll never need to know you've learned it. How many composers for video games do you think know what Dorian mode is, or a 2 key, 8th major chord? I'd say very few, because they don't need to know. If it were needed, yours, mine, Silverline's, and Zypher's music wouldn't probably be even half as good.

And for the record, I don't know what a diminished chord is either LOL.

So I agree, and at the same time, disagree, but music is so huge and weird and complex, that we could debate this subject all day and neither one of us would turn out to be right. Any music professor, music teacher, traditional musician or traditional composer will tell you everything we've both been saying: Just write on your own, and you'll start to figure things out on your own.

That being said for about the 6th time in this post alone, just keep writing Nightwolf. You'll start to get the hang of it. Music is pretty much just common sense.

The only thing I don't agree with here is your view on videogame composers. I mean, I know you said many, as in not all, videogame composers probably don't know theory, but

I'm getting a little lost in my point, here.

I'll just use an example, I guess.


I'm sure you know what the Legend of Zelda theme sounds like, right? The classic one, the one that's used in every game.
It sounds simple enough, right?

Well, in the course of about 4 or so measures it goes from (let's assume it stays in C) C Ionian mode (C major scale) to C Aeolian mode (C minor scale) to C phrygian mode.

Just because something SOUNDS simple, doesn't mean it is. I'd say a lot of videogame composers, or perhaps even a great majority of composers (who make it) in general have a very good idea of what they're doing, theory-wise.


I'd venture to say the greater composers know theory because theory can help you realize the emotion or feeling you're trying to write for. That's just one perspective, I guess.
But what I mean is ... different modes of the major scale give different emotions or feelings to a piece, and it's all because one or two notes are moved up or down a half step.


Eh, well, that's just my opinion. But I'm a theory nerd, so, hehe.

You know more than I thought, lol. Which really isn't that surprising actually.

I suppose I shouldn't have said such a small amount of video game composers don't know theory, that's a bit unfair actually. I SHOULD have said they probably don't know more of the advanced theory, such as film composers, orchestrators, etc. do. Not all, of course.

Then again, take what's-his-face who did the music for Vagrant Story and FF 12. He had no formal music training and his music is very complex and mature, so that would be a prime example of not needing music theory. Unless I'm wrong and he did have formal training. Bleh, Silverline would know.

Meh, I don't really remember my point anymore.

Haha, it's funny how nerdy music theory really is.  I guess my views are bit different considering I was formally trained and a traditional musician.

Anyway, it made for interesting discussion, even if we were a little bit off topic.

By reading this long posts you guys are making, im sure i know nothing about music.

I agree with all of that. I started making music with as good as no knowledge about musical theory. I improved a lot and I still have as good as no knowledge about musical theory. Note that I mention the THEORY, that means just the stuff Arlen mentioned:

I think that's debatable. You can learn a ton about music theory without being taught any of it, but the thing is, you won't know what any of it's called. You know what a diminished chord sounds like, but you don't know that's it's called a diminished chord. You know?

Also only turning musical theory into music will result in an emotionless piece of music, also just like Arlen said. It's not the theory that makes music, we are. The theory is only supposed to help us a little bit, only to give us maybe a headstart.

I see theory as really just a collection of ideas that have worked in the past. Like, we have harmonic minor and teach everyone about the scale, harmonic minor, because Beethoven, or someone like that, wanted a raised seventh in his minor scale, so he raised the seventh, and then everyone else started using it, and they were all "we should give this a name. How about Harmonic Minor?"

It doesn't mean they're rules, but it also doesn't mean you can just ignore them. The fact is, if you're writing decent music, you ARE using theory, because other people have used those ideas before too. There is no such thing as a theory-less piece. Even atonal music is included in music theory.

Just a collection of past ideas, organized so you can get a better grasp of what others have done in order to do better yourself.

Though I most likely use a lot of theory, I don't care to learn it. To me, it seems like learning the science behind music would make it less creative and more mathematical, and I'd rather just write what I feel.

See, I just can't agree with that. Can you really tell me that my music has become more mathematical and less creative/emotional since I learned how to use 7th and 9th chords, and shift in and out of keys?

The way I see it, people that don't know theory are always writing in a scale and never going outside of it. Theory teaches you that you can, in fact, use every note in the TWELVE note scale, even though you're in A major, and A major only has 7 notes. I learned that through THEORY. It has made me even MORE creative, because it's added a lot of new tricks to my bag.


I wish I could split this topic.

Also, if music theory is limiting your creativity, that's not music theory's fault. That's your fault for being so influenced by music theory. They aren't rules, as I've already said. That's guidelines and examples of what has been commonly done in the past. I mean, you're supposed to be creative, so stop thinking that music theory = unbreakable rules and, like, be creative.


But in the VERY same sense that painters often study the work of other famous artists, and perhaps even what techniques they used to create their work, so do many composers learn music theory.


So while it's not something that's required, I do firmly believe that it is a great help to expand your own compositional sound. That's what artists do, they blend the techniques of others and create a few of their own to make their own, unique, sound.

Heh, I'm just saying it doesn't intrigue me enough to learn at once. I've learned bits and pieces of theory as I've written, so I'll just continue that.

I sort of do what zypher does, I've made no effort to actually learn how to write music or study theory, I just write whatever I come up with, and if I like it, I keep it. I'm conscious of trying new things all the time (my music would be incredibly cheesy otherwise, I always think of cheese ;_; ), and intentionally just try to go completely random to what I'm familiar with sometimes, though with limited success. I guess perhaps theory would help me there, though for now all I'm doing it just to keep practiscing.

I am a music 'tard, with no experience in theory, who plays by ear.

Arlen said what I would have said had I been at a computer, and seen Zypher's post, only he said it a lot better than I probably would have. I agree 100% there.

Very true. You can't create a piece of music without using theory. You will use it, even if you don't know. Also, if you know theory, you can see what possibilities you actually have and truly can be more creative.

I also don't bother learning the theory as I am only doing some amateur music. If something comes out that I might be able to earn money with my music, I will learn the theory as it will help me to improve a lot in a short period of time. Being a better musician will ensure me good sales, so I can earn real money with music. But most likely this is not going to happen.