Pre-Destination or Free Will ?

you do not deserve to be a moderator because you cannot provide your opinion without insulting me.

I still do not think i've done anything worthy of locking this topic;  only the replies to my fantasy have.

I openly said I accept all religions & myths.
I admit i believe what most people call lies... lol, why even argue these points with me?  why insult me?  just say why its wrong with evidence & move on.  thus far, i have seen nothing that prooves me wrong or right.

& i do not see how i have offended.  if anything, intollerence of my ideas is the only problem.
it would seem that this forum subject was not ready for my crazy belief, that is fine, i don't judge any of you for it...  but it is pathetic that the response of "why not" is overshrouded by this nonsense.

I don't care if anyone agrees with me.  All of this, & this very matter makes up a vast majority of my programming style.  Just sorting out who i can work with & who i cannot. 

what i said, was perfectly appropriate to the situation;  ethnocentrism is a type of bigotry, if not THe definition.

I do not think my calling your moderator position, Halo, is in anyway childish.  I do not care if you think i'm wrong or stupid or cannot separate out whom you are adressing.

All i care about is finding common ground & my personal belief is that all have it.


also... google is not a valid resource... it's like the whore of pop-culture... Wikki is at least real people (though now it seems to be slipping into solicitation)  but i see no argument here.  there are many definitions of each word & scenario, & that is the heart of the problem.  i read my words & hear one thing, you all hear another, visa versa... something i said would be a problem to begin with.  to argue on about something i admitted was semantic metaphor is just funny.

besides, i was told i would get FLAMED on this forum.
i was expecting all of this in fair fun & game, and now you're all serious about it because i question the most obvious?
i was not offended.
nor am i angry or trying to debunk anything.
i truly believe what i said works with christianity & is pertinent to the discussion of free will & pre-destination.

i also believe in aliens.  & angels.  & goblins.  & elves.    these are opinions;  not facts... you all should know better.

just because I believe that the messiah, & Jesus (all) are a part of an ancient alien race's chromosomes & genetic make-up doesn't mean that my age, intelligence, or personal understanding should be put to scrutiny.

say what YOU believe, i will listen
i read the topic & didn't pick on anyone previously posting, i like what they said.
all i did was respond to an insult real quick-style =P

if you guys can't stand this perhaps i should find another place to discuss such heavy issues as are deep issues within my story & game creation, & thus my life.

& once again.... YES i didn't believe so many would disagree.  I have many mentors who accept all i have said as given, even the alien bit...  so, do not think i am looking for approval or anything like that.

I post for you benefit.
if that is not rcognised here, there are many places where it is ^^

if you don't like it,
debate it.
insult me, hell i think this is fun
i am not offended, just amused.  i will go back to my fantasy world again, LOL

sorry for giving you all my honest imput
i should not have shared without censoring myself specificly away from the whimsical metaphors of the world.


my dreams are real

another quick example:  Ninjutsu

Ninjas are real.
most people do not believe in them...
i believe that naruto, for example, is quite realistic in many ways.  while Kage bushin ninjustu (shadow replication, i dunno what the bad western translation is) is a bit absurd, the chakra techniques are all completely valid.

Naruto is a good example of fantastic applicability relating to real life metaphor.
The chakra techniques are found in Buddhism, Taoism & Hindu,  yet the kids cartoon show never mentions this, under the guise of ninja techniques.

ages come and go.  while a few thousands years ago many ninja & samurai walked on water openly & preformed ninjitsu that seem impossible to us today, different times held different powers.  I believe bards & ninjas walk on treetops, its just not many make it so far.

So, if you are all uncomfortable contrasting christianity to final fantasy, perhaps anime, or movies, or philosophy would be some other valid place to take this discussion.  I am not partial to any series alone, any book, any religion... all hold keys to truth.

Naruto often talks of free will.  The character even defeats a childhood antagonist of divination who is convinced of fate.  Ninjas of will may change their fate.  this is a lesson that circulates throughout the series.

The same message, was professed by Jesus & the apostles, as they found all the great healing majicks.  I also believe the estern view that they werew a party, a large guild with many more members, many fighters.  Jesus puts empowerment of will into his parables many times over.  Almost cotradictory, in telling people to fully trust god, yet to do for themselves;  balance.

I could relate anything to this subject.
the metaphors are so vast that they encompass stories from many cultures.

my only disdain is for those who won't learn, whom love their western ethnocentrism over truth.  the true natives of this place refer to us as "black magicians" for our necromancy & oil.  what many christian dogmas would call paigan or silly is really just old mistranslations from times of racism & bigotry (as in genocide, your definition Sol) still in use today, despite modern communication. 

denial is not evidence.  just show the western way is better & why, all i'm asking.  reply with your own feelings & words... quoting me over & over just makes me feel right. 

OK, so I didn't word my post correctly in the edit. I meant to say I wouldn't be responding to any argument, and so I am not. Unless you consider this one part an argument:

I was not insulting you until you had said I didn't deserve to be a moderator, and said I was a hypocrite, then, yes, by all means I insulted you. However... well, it doesn't matter, I think you probably get where I'm going with this.

And I didn't mean to imply you did anything to deserve the topic being locked, what I meant was it would take a lot of editing and splitting to make this topic still make sense after cutting out the arguments, etc. WITHOUT actually removing all of your posts, and I didn't want to do that. As I said before, you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how outlandish it may seem. I for one, am also not trying to prove you wrong. I used to be active in Intelligent Debate a lot, but it got tiresome trying to explain things to people who didn't want to take the time to listen to your point of veiw, so I want to make it clear that I don't agree with you, but it's irrelevant because I don't want to be involved in this topic anyway, which means I shouldn't have said anything in the first place, but I guess I just can't keep my mouth shut, metaphorically speaking of course.

Blah... the major reason I wanted to post here in the first place never got mentioned. And that is, first of all, Tsuno put a disclaimer in his opening post for a reason, and secondly, this needs to be discussed maturely before it gets out of hand. BUT... a little late for that.

Sadly, I'd like to say these forums are the place to discuss anything controversial, but sadly, ever since we made the Intelligent Debate forum, it hasn't been the case. It would seem no one here can disagree with anyone without resorting to namecalling or flaming. Then there are the people who can't take it when people do disagree with them.

And yes, outside of Intelligent Debate, I can assure you everyone seems to be a lot less serious about everything, so no worries there I suppose.

Anyway... I'm done here. I'll take the blame for whatever I feel I need to, and I'm not really blaming you for much eitehr, so don't take that the wrong way. So, as Tsuno said, back to topic, which seems to have happened while I was posting anyway. 

Hey i appreciate that, makes more sense now.
I really misunderstood, but i wasn't made.  no harm, no fould.

There is a ton of drama i obviously don't know about.  I apologize for that, but please don't take it out on this noob.  no hatin' here, but I ain't a pushover.  i love4 the lore i study for my game and take serious that people do not believe what i say.  these are gaps in my social commentary i must gap before i could ever write an RPG that would make sense to a wide audience.  All the same, I search for the links that make my words make sense of your words, & your words make sense of mine.

It isn't too late for intelligent discussion.  this still doesn't really try to mend anything.
you need to give positive encouragement & stop judging the tenses as good or bad.


Also, i do not see the deviation.  Aside from the insults shot at me, each post i've made connects back to the main topic.

I am a troubadour who types & thinks really quickly.  forgive me if it seems like i go on, but these are seriously typed in seconds directly from my mind:  i don't edit

I will apologize if i have exceeded some boundry that is harmful to others.  This is still not apparent to me, & if i understand correctly, things are ok again?

i hope that the Naruto metaphor may be more pleasing.
i only picked final fantasy because it seemed it would be a familiar theme to gamers.
once again, any is fine.
but if i talk directly about the Bible... well, we have all seen teh drama that ensues (rofl).
so pick a metaphor, any metaphor
then we can more fairly apply it to the sensitive religious material without as much judgement.

perhaps, as with most sites, i should simply avoid this topic.
many people do not like to hear it.  i could go with whatever is best liked, as to not offend. 
but, it isn't honest.

this whole post has been an exercise in free-will & spellcasting.
let me point out to you all whom don't believe in such things, that i did that consciously.
despite this, my opinions posted above are still all spontaneous & honest.
but it was my will that my song was singing in all who read this . . . just as it is anyone's will to post & be remembered, the words echoing on in the mind.  Those are bard songs.  bard songs are spells.  Most of my Bard songs come from the prophets.  Many of my songs of will come from the scriptures of the new testament.
Thus the relevence of majick in this conversation - The Empires of europes long tried to kill my ancestors for their beliefes, much older then the bible, yet later infused with it, like so many others.

so like i said, believe what you will.  i believe in that choice.  that is the point of this discussion.
but i will my songs out & call them spells, & that is yet to cover oracle, divination or oneiromancy  ...
I oft combine my will with the fates of the elementals to evoke spirits.  I sing to both freedom & destiny each day.

the reactions to my post, i think are relevant to the topic on many levels as example, & i am not hurt by this.

there are ninjas of choice & fate..
just as much as their are messiahs...
or heroes...

they're all just strong people.
and the funny thing is, I would overstep my bounds a little to say you all use majick & merely call it by another name.
scientists especially hate this;  but anthropology has made me too familiar with natural majick to just admit defeat.

energy is energy by any other name.

I don't mean to bring the discussion down by any means. You are right, there is still room for intelligent discussion, but I'm just speaking from past experience here, and considering how different your views are, I know that it's only a matter of time before someone comes in here and ruins everything. OK, I shouldn't say I KNOW, but...

I would like to be proved wrong in this instance, we get new members all the time, and other members are gone, so you never know, things may change. I can say Jesus Hitler obviously doesn't agree with you. Other than saying that you are dumb he hasn't really gone that far to ruin the topic in relation to what we've had in the past, so who knows? He does seem to be very blunt in his posts, but you seem more than prepared for that.

Anyway, yes you are right, we haven't really strayed too far from the topic, force of habit I suppose, ha.

I can't help but answer AGAIN.

sociology?  I know it.

Really? Tell me what it is.

also, simply, the myth of jesus practiced majick.  remember?  water to wine?  healing?  reincarnation?  call it a miracle, & you will find little different between the definitions.

Jesus was the incarnation of God on Earth and only he had the right to go beyond natural law because of that; we are mortal and must abide by the rules given to us. The only way to break these rules is to cooperate with Satan, and we all know that that isn't allowed.

I openly said I accept all religions & myths.

Odin created the universe from the body of the giant Ymir.

YHWH creates the universe just by willing it.

Tepeu and Gucamatz think up the universe object by object.

Which one is right?

just because I believe that the messiah, & Jesus (all) are a part of an ancient alien race's chromosomes & genetic make-up doesn't mean that my age, intelligence, or personal understanding should be put to scrutiny.

Yes it should because your beliefs are all non-sequiturs that are usually held by the immature, the ignorant, and the mentally unhinged.

my dreams are real

Only in your head.

Ninjas are real.
most people do not believe in them...

Who said that ninjas aren't real?

while a few thousands years ago many ninja & samurai walked on water openly & preformed ninjitsu that seem impossible to us today, different times held different powers.  I believe bards & ninjas walk on treetops, its just not many make it so far.

Ninjas and samurai existed a few hundred years ago, not a few thousand.

I could relate anything to this subject.

How does it relate to the movie Robocop?

just show the western way is better & why, all i'm asking

Westerners live longer, are more educated, and have better standards of living. We also have a tradition of freedom of thought and democracy, which traditional societies most often do not. China, on the other hand, is a brutal dictatorship which oppresses over a billion people, is ruining the environment like we are only they aren't doing anything about it, and has until recently supported North Korea (another non-western nation).

let me point out to you all whom don't believe in such things, that i did that consciously.

Don't worry, it doesn't affect me at all.

I honestly thought that most would agree with me.

I have many mentors who accept all i have said as given

These comments would justify killing everyone on Earth.

You are right, there is still room for intelligent discussion, but I'm just speaking from past experience here, and considering how different your views are, I know that it's only a matter of time before someone comes in here and ruins everything.

/\ Case and point...

/\ Case and point...

Don't you mean "case in point"?

No, I mean I rest his case, and point a finger.

*points*

This topic grew much in short period...

Appeal to all

I can see why someone can think that oneiromancer is strange, crazy or whatever, but I don't get it why you attacked him because of spelling word magic differently. A. Crowley, that oneiromancer apparently likes very much, made expression magick, to different it from illusionists' "magic". And Crowley was greatest modern theorists on magic/k, not you guys. And interesting is that source of your knowledge for magic and word "magic" is from games, but you flamed oneiromancer like you studied magic for several years. It doesn't matter do you believe it or not, but you can't flame someone because he said something right and you are used to different. And what is magic for you anyway? Fireball. That is not magick. Most of you go to school, so I'll make it closer to you. If teacher is thinking should he/she give you C or B, and ofcourse you want B, and you want it real hard, and repeating in yourself give me B give me B, while focusing on event you want to accomplish, my colleagues, that is more closer to magick.

Appeal to oneiromancer

I agree with some things in your first post, but it is so far away now, so I won't search for them again. But in my opinion you respect truth too much. What is truth anyway? Suppose reality is like in movie matrix (I will assume everyone here watched it), so there truth is that we are being controlled by the system. But, what if we never find that out? We still live that life, can be perfectly happy, but we don't know the truth, we think that matrix is reality, but it isn't. So my point is, fuck the truth. It is unimportant for being. Our truth is subjective truth, not objective, and all those who search objective truth will either find nothing and be disappointed whole life, or will think they have find it and actually believe in subjective truth like everyone else. Every person has different experience in life, thus has different truth. What is really important in life is felicity, peace inside. Spirituality is based on making person content by needing only himself/herself. That way your felicity is guaranteed because nothing can hurt you (emotionaly) and you don't fear of death, as well as you mentioned people won't be connected to this world after death, so they will be free to move on, on higher step of consciousness; hell on earth is to stay connected to it after death I would say.

Free will is something some people will never taste. Only if you understand what is your place in universe you will have the power to make some choices by your will to change the universe.

What are your thoughts? On either or both?

I belive that everything happens for a reason. Therefore, we do have freewill, but even that is determined for us. I believe that, as I mentioned in the Gaia topic, that we are tools in a greater "plan", and that, to the Earth itself, we are just its organs, keeping it alive. Even though we've been screwing it up will pollution.

What are your thoughts? This is a debate, but I'd prefer it if you didn 't completley dismiss each other ideas. At least give a valid point as to why you disagree.

I think that all things happen because i want it too happen.
I think we all need to be able to give ourselfs and others freedom to do whatever they want..
 

Your right, and I do agree with you. However, while that happens, I belive our actions are controlled, not directly, but by something most people think stupid, and a kind of myth, FATE.

I agree that our fates are predetermined, however no one can truly foresee the future and will only see a path that they believe is the truth.

For instance. My driving examiner was named Emma Pass.

Have a guess at what happened next. My fate is make everything right on the third time, it always has been always will be because I believe it.

I can see what you mean. For example, I have to everything twice. Seriously, I do something, and I've missed something out, or its wrong, or people think its crap, you know? Its like that with my whole family, we have to do everything twice. This leads me to believe everything happens for a reason.

For example, things don't work out first time for a reason, we just don't know why. Nor do we feel its fair.

He won't get banned. Because he wants to.

Maybe if he repeditivly spammed the project/games section while cussing out silver.

He does spam, all the time. Thats what he's saying. He spams all the time, but never gets banned. He wants to prove he can be banned.

Please, could we try to get back on topic now.

Ok then, what are your opinions?

My opinion is this. Freewill does not exist. That is quite simple, and I have given my reasons already, but it is true, Deja Vu supports this theory, unless we are all living in a time lag. Where the future is happening so fast that we barely notice it until we catch up, and thus, fate is pre-determined by ourselves.

A paradox.

Deja Vu...I "suffer", could I call it, alot. I'm always thinking I've already seen or heared this before.

All events are random chance. There is no guiding hand or plan.

Why do you say that GilgameshRO. Have you never suffered from Deja Vu, or just something someone said to you that seemed incredibly unlikely, yet still happened by a mere coincidence.

Or that someone told you, that you were going to do something and no matter how much you tried not to, you still ended up doing it?

Doing something you said you wouldn't is simply lack of restraint, deja vu is just your imagination, everything people do or say has some sort of thought or reason behind it. There is absolutely nothing that points to the idea that events are predetermined.

Yet, if what you're saying is true, then there is no evidence that it does not exist either?

Am I correct in assuming that?

Through the power of observation and experience I have come to the conclusion that people are in complete control of their own lives. I can offer little other evidence than that, but in the end, that's the only evidence that really matters. Even if something is true, if experience tells you otherwise there is little reason to believe it.

Lock this thread plz.

Hey dumb-bags: LOOK HERE

Old topic is ooooooold.

Still, I'll merge them.

EDIT: merged