Pre-Destination or Free Will ?

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Disclaimer
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This is a Christian debate. This is not to discuss whether or not Christianity is true, it is to discuss the Christian views of Pre-Destination and Free Will. If you are not a Christian and you wish to participate in this debate, please, do not criticize or do anything stupid. Please.

Also, if you are not a Christian and you wish to participate in this debate, reaserch the two views first. Don't forget to put yourself in the shoes of an avid-Christian, this does not mean you have to believe it, just that it's easier to argue for something you don't believe in if you pretend you do believe in it.

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My View

I personally believe in Free Will. There are many proofs to it in the Bible, such as the Parable of the Wedding that Jesus used to describe Heaven. Our classes had a debate the other day, and the thing that makes me mad, is the fact that the Pre-Destination team used things such as -

"Human beings were created to go to Hell."

As their arguement. There is a verse in the Bible (mind you, the Bible is long so it's hard to find) that states very clearly that (not exact words) -

Be not decieved, for Hell was not created for you and me, rather for Satan and his legion.

It makes me mad that their arguements could easily be disproved and that they would have been had we known their arguements and had more than 40 minutes to duke it out lol.

BTW: The parable I used in the topic on alchemy is actually one I wanted to use in the debate, but I never got the chance to.

State your position

If you want to argue christian theory take it to church. All views are welcome here.

I understand that. That's why I have the disclaimer at the top. -_-

Hmm, I would like to share a story with you, something that happened few days ago. A missionary from USA came to my city with purpose to "spread the word of God". He introduced to me: Hi, I'm a Christian. And besides he stole 30 minutes of my life, because my friend wanted to debate with him, he mentioned that we have a choice, and we have free will. Free will to choose should we go to hell or heaven. And only way to go to heaven, is not to be good person because that is not enough, but to follow Christ, because he payed for our sins by dieing on cross. OK, I'm sorry, but I don't see free will if I must to follow someone, who I haven't met in my life, not to burn in hell. Let it put this way, for example: I'm a good person and don't won't to go to hell, I want to go to heaven, that is my will, because I did good things whole my life and I think I deserve it. But I can't if I don't go to Church, worship God, and pray to Jesus. Is that a free will?

I'm sorry if it is not true hardcore Christian belief, because I'm not one, but at least I tried to put it closest I could to Christian debate thematic as you wanted it to be in disclaimer, and this could also easy be an issue of a Christian.

You don't have to pray everyday or go to church, he just wishes you would. He wants you to believe (with the heart) that He is your savior, that's actually it. That and you shouldn't worship other gods, but if you're truely saved you won't want to.

To get to a college you have to apply correct? Well, once you've applied (let's assume this college accepts all applications, b/c God doesn't discriminate) and you've gotten in, you are now a student correct? You don't have to go to the school everyday, or in fact at all. People won't believe that you're a student there, but the school can't deny that you were accepted as a student there.

In the same way, you have to accept Christ, but just because you don't pray everday or go to church (I myself don't go to church, but that's because I don't have access to it) doesn't mean that you're going to go to Hell, you are still saved. If you start worshiping other gods and deny Christ, then you weren't saved to begin with.

The Free Will is in the choice of whether to follow Christ or not.

Another example -
You believe that we have free will to do what we want correct? Let's say you want to go somewhere, you either walk or drive there. You can't fly there, why? Because you don't have wings or the aerodynamics that will allow you to fly. The Scientific laws prohibit you.

Now, before that is used to denounce God and say that if that's the case miracles are impossible -

Scientific laws state what happens naturaly in the world. For example, you can say that gravity will always pull an object down, for the law states that naturaly this will happen.
That's the catch, naturaly. The scientific laws are stated in a way such as they take place in the most opportune conditions without any outside force. God is an outside force, therefore miracles can happen.

EX: If somebody drops a ball from the 2nd floor, it will fall to the ground, unless somebody catches it before it falls.

OK, I see your point, it is true, from scientific view. But, there are other religions. For Example, Buddha. He was a special man, just like Jesus was, he preach about how to be a good person, and to get well in life and with other people, how to find your happiness in life. So someone who follows Buddha can't go to heaven? Now, don't tell me they even don't want to go to heaven because they believe in reincarnation. Because in the Bible it is not written that there is no reincarnation. And Jesus said that he will be back one day for all the living and dead to bring them into the kingdom of his father, and others will go to hell. So, he will come back for those dead! This tell us that dead are not in hell or heaven yet. So what they do until then? They could be ghosts in this world and wait. But they could reincarnate, right? And those religions that believe in reincarnation, believes also in a divine state, called Nirvana (don't tell me it is about to become nothing, most people don't understand this, especially western mind, and it is wrongly interpreted in western world). So what if Nirvana is actually Heaven, just interpreted in the other way than western mind would, aka Christianity. So they actually believe that they will come some day to Heaven, they believe and follow their God-man Buddha, like Christians do Christ, and why they will not go into heaven? And what about people that don't have choice to learn about Jesus and salvation, but are good persons, would they go to hell because of that?

Please verify for me if I said correct this line from Bible that Jesus will come back for both living and dead, I am pretty sure this is right. And sorry for not sticking only with Christianity view on free will.

And now I would like to say something about predestination. Don't you ever feel some things turns out like it was meant to be that way. And what about deja vu? How can you dream about something that will happen in future if it wasn't all predestined to be. And what about psychic people that sometimes see into future, like visions and so. Like they break boundaries of linear time in short moment, and see what will happen. If life is not predestined how that could be possible? (this is not debate whether all those things are possible or not, like it isn't debate does God exists; but I must say that if they were not possible we wouldn't even heard about them).

OK, I see your point, it is true, from scientific view. But, there are other religions. For Example, Buddha. He was a special man, just like Jesus was, he preach about how to be a good person, and to get well in life and with other people, how to find your happiness in life. So someone who follows Buddha can't go to heaven? Now, don't tell me they even don't want to go to heaven because they believe in reincarnation. Because in the Bible it is not written that there is no reincarnation. And Jesus said that he will be back one day for all the living and dead to bring them into the kingdom of his father, and others will go to hell. So, he will come back for those dead! This tell us that dead are not in hell or heaven yet. So what they do until then? They could be ghosts in this world and wait. But they could reincarnate, right? And those religions that believe in reincarnation, believes also in a divine state, called Nirvana (don't tell me it is about to become nothing, most people don't understand this, especially western mind, and it is wrongly interpreted in western world). So what if Nirvana is actually Heaven, just interpreted in the other way than western mind would, aka Christianity. So they actually believe that they will come some day to Heaven, they believe and follow their God-man Buddha, like Christians do Christ, and why they will not go into heaven? And what about people that don't have choice to learn about Jesus and salvation, but are good persons, would they go to hell because of that?

Please verify for me if I said correct this line from Bible that Jesus will come back for both living and dead, I am pretty sure this is right. And sorry for not sticking only with Christianity view on free will.

And now I would like to say something about predestination. Don't you ever feel some things turns out like it was meant to be that way. And what about deja vu? How can you dream about something that will happen in future if it wasn't all predestined to be. And what about psychic people that sometimes see into future, like visions and so. Like they break boundaries of linear time in short moment, and see what will happen. If life is not predestined how that could be possible? (this is not debate whether all those things are possible or not, like it isn't debate does God exists; but I must say that if they were not possible we wouldn't even heard about them).

Everyone will be brought back to life so that they can be judged by Jesus, and those deemed unworthy will be sent to Hell to burn with Satan. Of course, there are some groups that believe that everyone (even Satan) gets into Heaven eventually, Eastern Orthodoxy being the most prominent.

Also, predestination is silly. God would create a universe where everything is decided beforehand... why?

Because that is perfection? Balancing whole universe?

But to us that does not mean much, because for us time is linear, and we think what is happening to us is happening first time and that we make individual choices. We wouldn't know if anything is predestined or we actually have free will, would we? 

So if Jesus will judge, by what we have seen (read) from Bible, I don't think he will have heart to send someone that is good person to hell, just because he didn't followed him. I mean, that would be egoistic and narcistic of him?

Not if you put things in perspective.

Here's a loving God who created us, and sustained us for years. We constantly spat in His face and started to worship other gods. He gave us many chances to repent and turn to him.

It got so bad in the Old Testament, that there were cities in which the worst imaginable happened. Take the worst city on earth, multiply it by ten, and add cultish prostitution, child sacrifice by burning, and brutality beyond measure as everyday practice.

He is not being unfair by sending people to Hell for not following Him. He gives us chances all the time, heck, every day is another chance.

@Djangonator - You're going to have to explain what you're talking about. I'm only 14 (going on 15) and I'm not quite sure what you're saying there.

As Morpheus says, "All things begin with choice."  The Matrix supports free will.  _{(and yet, Neo was destined to be The One)}

As Morpheus says, "All things begin with choice." The Matrix supports free will. _{(and yet, Neo was destined to be The One)}

That tickles me pink.

*cough*

{ON TOPIC} => I'm rather glad there's actually intelligent debating going on this time. Usually threads like these go up in flames. Pardon the pun.

{ON TOPIC} => I'm rather glad there's actually intelligent debating going on this time.

I would have to disagree there, but thats why I'm not taking part in it I suppose.

Free will

I like the story of the missionary saying that making Jebus an Idol would get one into heaven;  too bad that is exactly backwards.

First, a powerful example:
Final fantasy VII deals intimately with the reincarantion of the messiah & the Sephiros (sephiroth) as the clones of the tree of life, those mixed with blood of the ancients (elves, taru, angels, whatever) whom had the power to save earth in her time of need.
final fantasy tactics & VII completely debunk modern literal christian interpretation.  the sephiros mark the begining and end of this, the 7th age.  Cloud is a messiah just as much as any of the cast.  Messiah is a party of heroes.

The christian concept of "accepting jesus" is completely wrong.  There are some obvious mistranslations to talk about.  so here's a quick rant~!

1.  Jesus says he is the "son of god," & most use this for idolatry.  Jesus was really saying that we are all sons & daughters of the infinite, which is, duh, obvious.  call it god or whatever, but jesus wasn't talking about himself.  If Jesus didn't promise the same ability to others, salvation would be the only reason to follow, yet again blasphemous idolatry.

2.  Messiah is plural.  NOT ONE PERSON!!!  This is why the Jewish people do not accept jesus as a savior;  THE OLD TESTAMENT SAYS HE ISN"T.  The Messiah is CLEARLY a reincarnating spirit that may be MANY people at the same time.  Moses is a messiah.  Mary magdelin is a messiah.  John teh baptist is a messiah.  Buddha is a messiah.  etc, etc, etc... Never does it day that the Messiah is god & to worship that person alone.  that is christian cultist rational at its best.  A very good way to trick people into idolatry, which, if you're cristian, means that every time one "takes jesus into their heart"  they are being possessed by a demonic presence.  all of you that believe Jesus is the sole messiah would do good to learn a little basic Hebrew, translate just that one word, & then look up its various definitions (as Hebrew is brilliant, unlike english, and all words have annograms of smaller pertinent definitions & relations, not to mention perfect numberology & elemental allignment) & see how the Hebrew people would define it, not some yokal hick evangelist who would take your money in the name of god & jesus.  really, any church that needs money isn't that holy.

Jesus is not coming back.  hate to say it, but that name really isn't even real, let alone the whole concept.  The MESSIAH is.  The Messiah will judge.  the Messiah is many.  Jesus & his philosophies may reincarnate in the thoughts of the new Messiahs, but it will by no means be Jesus' alone.  May thoughts make up a great prophet & those thoughts always come from many other prophets.

3.  Accepting a person you don't know is impossible.  None of us knew teh big JC, & none ever will.  To say that one knows what jesus would do is actually quite egotist, then, as one can only really know self.  REally, saying "I have jesus in my heart" is like saying " I have ME in my heart."

4.  The word jesus is not hebrew, its latin /  greek.  You might as well say, well "thank charlie" or accept Bob into your heart.  Jesus' name was changed as were most of the apostles, & yet most believers call the document literal.  One would be better off to recognise all messiah, rather then spend an entire life-time chasing an impossible perfect image that is only the ego's mastabatory expression.  since the name itself is wrong, we must assume lots of the stories are wrong as well.  the personal perception of each author alone is enough to warrant it unrealistic... but then, history, too, is impossible, by that argument.

5.  It doesn't say anywhere that Heaven = accepting Jesus.  Reading through the Bible, one finds there are many ways, & that perhaps heaven isn't a "place" as much as a state of mind & being.  Idolizing one person in your heart will only evoke bad spirits of desire.  Ignoring moral responsibility because one is "saved" on death creates miserable people who end up only consuming for desire sake, conviced of their rewards in the afterlife;  this, of course, is destroying many peoples lives & any person who doesn't believe that they are responsible because they are going to heaven will serve the equivalent of many lives in "hell" (whatever it is) due to all the horrible karma they gathered while living.  There is not "get into heaven" free card.  The meek inherit the earth, & it does turn into heaven inbetween every age or so...  It is always so perfect that the natives never bother to hire a scribe & industrialize their love of god.

Ok

It got so bad in the Old Testament, that there were cities in which the worst imaginable happened. Take the worst city on earth, multiply it by ten, and add cultish prostitution, child sacrifice by burning, and brutality beyond measure as everyday practice.

Babylon?
This too is a common misconception.  Babylon was not the worst, it was the first (& only Biblicly, many other cultures trace to advanced civilizations thousands of years before the old testament was concieved & rewritten by Moses to preserve what was almost lost to slavery & war).  This is all happening and has been for thousands of years:  rape, murder, genocide, slavery, etc. are all a part of this culture, NOW.  I suggest reading Naked lunch.  It's about the 20s-40s in america, & how absolutely insane they were.  I read it today & had no idea things were this bad now, but this was almost 100 years ago in some cases.  Most real media is edited to cover the repulsive human behavior that is everpresent.  We will only escape babylon in transcendedce... and even then we will face similar problems of perception.

The debauchery is everywhere.  the whore of babylon, surely, though a metaphor for many people, walks the earth today as do the beast & anti-christ & whatnot.  This is because time is NOt linear.  The revelation isn't coming, its already here, & has been here for a very, very long time.


Pre-destination is an illusion that the possessed name themselves.  In actuality they have surrendered their souls to the ego (lets face it, very few pre-destiners think they are going to hell) & then their prayers to the dead & demonic who feed on such energy.  Anyone who believes that they can exclude others from eternal happiness is in fact a demon in the service of satan, condemming the living in attempt to despair them, to weaken their soul for the kill & feast.  Idolators do not see heaven in their lifetimes, so they desparatly cling to their salvation after death.  As one who has clinicly died & artificially recreated the circumstance, let me say that hell in death is what the mind dwelled on in life.  The things that ghosts stay attached to are desires, the only things that weight souls down from transcention.  When one dies they do see everything they did & how it connected back to all.  To know the truth of one's own idolatry & desire at death truly is a hell worse then any I can imagine.  The consciousness is spread out so that in an instance one can see lifetimes & aeons pass in moments, yet percieve all in death.   This especially interests me as I use perma-death & reincarnation systems in RPG maker, lol.\\

Free will is just as it is.
The crystal warriors save the earth many times over without the help of modern religious idols, christianity or any religion;  the tendency to worship the divine, instead of study their way, destroys many.

that being said, I believe the message of jesus is empowerment, not exclusion.  It is not that one must "accept jebus into their heart"  but rather that one should study the life of jesus and learn how to heal & preform great works...  one could also learn many things NOt to do, like try to overthrough multiple empires on foot.  But really, I believe that anyone can reincarnate (buddhism much?)  anyone can turn water to wine, anyone can do ANYTHINg jesus did... he was a messiah, not a god.  for that matter, what about the miracles of the apostles??  rarely mentioned, no one worships them, yet they preform works of majick & healing.

Messiah = party
the messiah are the crystal warriors, the heroes of our games.
the messiah is not someone who will judge you, hurt you, or keep you out of heaven.
the messiah will free us all from our physcial bonds of sufferring & into transcendental bliss.

To validate my commets a bit, I read Hebrew & often translate the bible for fun.  Likewise I delve into any religious text that may hold some truth burried beneath the layers of lies & social manipulation.  i have played every final fantasy, most notebly FFVII & Tactics, the two that deal directly with this issue.  Tactics especially when they discover the lost book of Judas, the Germonick scriptures (gnostic).  I believe that christians took majick out of the bible during the various dark ages  or translation when it had to be done with a pen & ink.  jesus, as with most biblical heroes, freely wield the majick of their religion.  the Kabalah was stricken from the new bible & christians have lost more then half of their religious practice.  when one uses the signs of the tarot to re-translate the Bible (Crowley, in my preference) alone with the I ching, Tao, & various other ancient systems, the majick all becomes apparent.  I believe all have part of the story right.  Every holy book translates every other holy book;  every native languages reinterprets & solves old discrepencies.  The wild people of this world know more of religion then any of us, & most cannot read.

Any questions are welcome, as most of that stuff is really heavy, I don't mind defending it.
This is only my 2nd post, so I would reiderrate my intention is not to hurt or offend, but to seek all the truths.
I believe that their are always many versions to a story.  The similar stories in the new testament only show how it has been ruthlessly edited under command of death & war;  the missing scriptures float out amoungst the secret lore of the world.  But do not feel bad if you are christian (i still am in a new majickal sort of fashion) as I see this problem is every religion, story, book, piece of media, etc.  All has fallen with Babylon, & here we sit in the most heightened version of that pandemonium.  We are the worst of the Beast, the 666 bards communicating both the works that awaken chosen & forsaken, I am a neutral druid oracle & bard whom only seeks peace & love. 

It is my hope that through games & fantasy we can create the varried applicability that undoes the historical machinations of lies through honest imagination, unbound to desire or preconcieved notions.  This time we are free to dream, & all imaginable is our great tomb of wisdom.  Let us not get caught in the semantics, but cut right through to the epic fantasy. ^^

oh yah? 

You obviously don't play & have no understanding of how games are modern forms of divination.
Games are relevant to this discussion because it is a game site, rofl.
And i would not presume your religion, but most have a grounding in some form of divine majick.  Christianity is one of these, & as it was mentioned, the word Messiah itself is a Majickal word that has causes many things this age, great things, terrific & terrible.  That word has killed many in the middle east & all over the world.

Final  Fantasy is a good applicable metaphor as it is fantasy, & not some religious allegory that people have personal / spiritual beliefs about.  Therefor they can allow themselves to discusss more intimant truths without fear of persecution or guilt.

Some peeps who spell majick with a "k" pwn u irl with their alchemical spells that are synthesized in the various forms of technology & sociology.  They own your life with spells that you believe don't exist.  They are breaking your fingers over time, slowly as hidden masters of the art of necromancy & war.  You may die to never become a heroe because these spells posess so much of your life;  few see them, fewer escape them, still fewer challenge them.  Call it what you will, but everyone believes in some sematic definition of power that i call magick.

Believe what you want, but I will hold out for the crystal warriors over any ancient prophet.
What would be viable resource for you then?  a religious tomb, Jesus hitler?  Forgive me, but right off the bat it seems you believe in few things that the common public would say were "valid."  But, to slam without reference, as you have, is lame & still without merit for my taste;  show me some proof JH.  proove that fantasy gaming isn't a rational contrast to religious texts... most epic tales are based on those religions to begin with.  do you honestly play games without understanding their anthropological value?

For me this imformation is all pertinent to world building in RPGs & realistic fantasy.
I have learned more from final fantasy, dragon warrior, & D&D then I have school & church (but that is me lol).
I am making an RPG, I really don't have time to quibble over such silly semantics.

Remember to provide evidence about your statements, otherwise they sound empty (as that reply was).

I am sorry your post was a waste of our time JH.  perhaps a better one next go? ^^

oh yah? 

You obviously don't play & have no understanding of how games are modern forms of divination.
Games are relevant to this discussion because it is a game site, rofl.
And i would not presume your religion, but most have a grounding in some form of divine majick.  Christianity is one of these, & as it was mentioned, the word Messiah itself is a Majickal word that has causes many things this age, great things, terrific & terrible.  That word has killed many in the middle east & all over the world.

Final  Fantasy is a good applicable metaphor as it is fantasy, & not some religious allegory that people have personal / spiritual beliefs about.  Therefor they can allow themselves to discusss more intimant truths without fear of persecution or guilt.

Some peeps who spell majick with a "k" pwn u irl with their alchemical spells that are synthesized in the various forms of technology & sociology.  They own your life with spells that you believe don't exist.  They are breaking your fingers over time, slowly as hidden masters of the art of necromancy & war.  You may die to never become a heroe because these spells posess so much of your life;  few see them, fewer escape them, still fewer challenge them.  Call it what you will, but everyone believes in some sematic definition of power that i call magick.

Believe what you want, but I will hold out for the crystal warriors over any ancient prophet.
What would be viable resource for you then?  a religious tomb, Jesus hitler?  Forgive me, but right off the bat it seems you believe in few things that the common public would say were "valid."  But, to slam without reference, as you have, is lame & still without merit for my taste;  show me some proof JH.  proove that fantasy gaming isn't a rational contrast to religious texts... most epic tales are based on those religions to begin with.  do you honestly play games without understanding their anthropological value?

For me this imformation is all pertinent to world building in RPGs & realistic fantasy.
I have learned more from final fantasy, dragon warrior, & D&D then I have school & church (but that is me lol).
I am making an RPG, I really don't have time to quibble over such silly semantics.

Remember to provide evidence about your statements, otherwise they sound empty (as that reply was).

I am sorry your post was a waste of our time JH.  perhaps a better one next go? ^^

Oh my god. Don't even tell me that you considered any of that to be an actual, serious argument, oneiromancer.

If you think games are a "modern form of divination", wouldn't that mean that you have some "personal / spiritual beliefs" about? I mean, I know this whole "argument" is directed at JH, but puh-LEASE, you canNOT be serious about over half of this.

If you're spelling the word "MAGIC" with a "j" or a "k", you ARE, in fact, lame, and in need of broken phalanges. The fact that you even said somebody could "pwn" somebody else with "alchemical" spells "irl" supports that statement. I mean, OBVIOUSLY you are learning more from RPGs and LARPing if you spell "magic" that way and believe in "alchemical" spells, if you can call it learning at all.

Provide evidence with any of YOUR statements. This is INTELLIGENT debate, not "OMG MAJIK IS RILL" debate.

Games are relevant to this discussion because it is a game site, rofl.

Just because the site is about games does not mean that it is appropriate to bring up Final Fantasy in a thread about predestination.

And i would not presume your religion, but most have a grounding in some form of divine majick.  Christianity is one of these, & as it was mentioned, the word Messiah itself is a Majickal word that has causes many things this age, great things, terrific & terrible.  That word has killed many in the middle east & all over the world.

If you're going to bring up Christians you should also mention that divination and magic is sinful for them, as it is a violation of God's (natural) law.

The word "messiah" didn't kill anyone, 'twas people who did the deed.

Final  Fantasy is a good applicable metaphor as it is fantasy, & not some religious allegory that people have personal / spiritual beliefs about.  Therefor they can allow themselves to discusss more intimant truths without fear of persecution or guilt.

But it's clear that you have attached religious and spiritual beliefs to something that was meant to entertain, not enlighten. There are no deeper truths in FF than there are in Vice City or Super Mario.

Some peeps who spell majick with a "k" pwn u irl with their alchemical spells that are synthesized in the various forms of technology & sociology.

Do you know what sociology is?

They own your life with spells that you believe don't exist.

I am indeed unaware of these spells and what's more, if I knew of them I wouldn't care. These spells don't have any power over me because I don't believe they do.

They are breaking your fingers over time, slowly as hidden masters of the art of necromancy & war.  You may die to never become a heroe because these spells posess so much of your life;  few see them, fewer escape them, still fewer challenge them.  Call it what you will, but everyone believes in some sematic definition of power that i call magick.

Who is "They"? The Illuminati?

Believe what you want, but I will hold out for the crystal warriors over any ancient prophet.

What?!

What would be viable resource for you then?  a religious tomb, Jesus hitler?  Forgive me, but right off the bat it seems you believe in few things that the common public would say were "valid."  But, to slam without reference, as you have, is lame & still without merit for my taste;  show me some proof JH.  proove that fantasy gaming isn't a rational contrast to religious texts...

Show me some proof that the Sunday doesn't taste purple!

most epic tales are based on those religions to begin with.  do you honestly play games without understanding their anthropological value?

I most indeedily do, sir. What would I get out of it by comparing the protagonist to Jesus?

For me this imformation is all pertinent to world building in RPGs & realistic fantasy.

If you want to add a spiritual level to your games that's all well and good but don't confuse your creations with someone else's.

I have learned more from final fantasy, dragon warrior, & D&D then I have school & church (but that is me lol).

What?!

I am making an RPG, I really don't have time to quibble over such silly semantics.

I'm sorry I took away precious moments you could have spent completing your game. Carry on, good sir.

Remember to provide evidence about your statements, otherwise they sound empty (as that reply was).

My comments about bringing up FF in serious conversation and people who misspell magic are self-evident to anyone who isn't insane.

I am sorry your post was a waste of our time JH.  perhaps a better one next go? ^^

Reading your comments gave me indigestion.

oh yah? 

You obviously don't play & have no understanding of how games are modern forms of divination.
Games are relevant to this discussion because it is a game site, rofl.
And i would not presume your religion, but most have a grounding in some form of divine majick.  Christianity is one of these, & as it was mentioned, the word Messiah itself is a Majickal word that has causes many things this age, great things, terrific & terrible.  That word has killed many in the middle east & all over the world.

Final  Fantasy is a good applicable metaphor as it is fantasy, & not some religious allegory that people have personal / spiritual beliefs about.  Therefor they can allow themselves to discusss more intimant truths without fear of persecution or guilt.

Some peeps who spell majick with a "k" pwn u irl with their alchemical spells that are synthesized in the various forms of technology & sociology.  They own your life with spells that you believe don't exist.  They are breaking your fingers over time, slowly as hidden masters of the art of necromancy & war.  You may die to never become a heroe because these spells posess so much of your life;  few see them, fewer escape them, still fewer challenge them.  Call it what you will, but everyone believes in some sematic definition of power that i call magick.

Believe what you want, but I will hold out for the crystal warriors over any ancient prophet.
What would be viable resource for you then?  a religious tomb, Jesus hitler?  Forgive me, but right off the bat it seems you believe in few things that the common public would say were "valid."  But, to slam without reference, as you have, is lame & still without merit for my taste;  show me some proof JH.  proove that fantasy gaming isn't a rational contrast to religious texts... most epic tales are based on those religions to begin with.  do you honestly play games without understanding their anthropological value?

For me this imformation is all pertinent to world building in RPGs & realistic fantasy.
I have learned more from final fantasy, dragon warrior, & D&D then I have school & church (but that is me lol).
I am making an RPG, I really don't have time to quibble over such silly semantics.

Remember to provide evidence about your statements, otherwise they sound empty (as that reply was).

I am sorry your post was a waste of our time JH.  perhaps a better one next go? ^^

I think this killed a few braincells. Last time I checked I need those.

Hmmm...
I did not expect to encounter biggotry.

This is a late day to accept some religions & not others.  There are many whom call these sacred arts.
But, just because you do not believe something is not there does not mean it doesn't exist.
I hold Paganism in the highest regaurd along side Christianity, Islam, Taosim, or even obscure native beliefs.
This judgement won't get ya very far in other cultures.  ^.~

To say you don't believe in majick is like saying you don't believe in god or earth or stars.
Science & the numbers of mathematic equations, are clearly known as majick (magic, majik, magik) in many other cultures.  just because we can use latin pseudonymns for what others call mysticism does NOT make the western terminology correct.  very rude, u guys forum trolls of something?

And to answer one of JH's quotes, magic is not forbiddon in christianity.
A cult leader may attempt to sway the Bible to say so, yet the writing of the old testament is a system based upon the Kabalah itself.  The very definitions of the words come from the tree of life, one of the most beautiful works high divination has to offer.  I appreciate that you think you know what is forbiddon, but you would supplant truly sacred & holy majick from the Bible, without so much as understanding what you were saying.
The Bible itself is a code or sorts, if you don't like "majick" as a word, and its numbers form the equations of modern science just as much as many other religions now do.  Not to mention that the new testament was based on these same mostly hebrew methodology.  Read the Bible with the books that connect to it, its great.

I mean, what do we call algebra?  science?  I would assure you that many cultures would say the western world stole their majick away like fools in the night, & now use it not knowing what they evoke.

Much of Rocket science, especially, is based on the higher forms of necromancy found not only in the Bible (soloman & a few others) but also in many secret orders & societies.  Many modern amercian scientists used the Kabalah to figure out how to blow stuff up.  They believed in majick & science as one;  I and many others are no different.  Call it engineering, these were taken out of old "wizards" long abandoed towers, old tombs of lore...  we didn't just "discover" all this on our own, it is cultural progression of AGES.

Believe what you guys want, I laughed a lot.

I am making a fantasy rpg game & i believe i live in one.
accept it, lol.  that's my religion.  I've seen too many ages pass now...

ROFL, alright... the Intelligent Debate forum just hit an all-time low, I believe.

However, in oneiromancer's defense, magic can be spelled "magick", but I believe that's a celtic word. Not too familiar with it actually, so I could be wrong. However, that's where I'll stop defending him, heh.

Hmmm...
I did not expect to encounter biggotry.

It seems you need to get a dictionary, friend, and look up the word bigotry (which you spelled wrong), and see how it doesn't fit here.

No, nevermind, I'll just put it here for you.

Prejudice carried to the extreme of overt hatred, often carried to the point of violence

No one here IMO was being this way outwardly enough to say you're encountering bigotry here.

Believe what you guys want, I laughed a lot.

I am making a fantasy rpg game & i believe i live in one.
accept it, lol.  that's my religion.  I've seen too many ages pass now...

You are obviously no older than 14, or else you're just trying to get attention. Or both. The last member this stupid was veltonvelton, with his "Jedi is a real religion" topic.

And just because this is a site for RPG Maker doesn't mean every forum here is for video games, hence the different categories. 

This is a late day to accept some religions & not others.

Who said I was accepting any religion?

This judgement won't get ya very far in other cultures.  ^.~

Then it's a good thing that I have no intention of ever living in or even visiting these other cultures. I am very happy with Western civilization and consider it superior to all others.

To say you don't believe in majick is like saying you don't believe in god or earth or stars.

Not believing in magic equates to nihilism? And who said I believed in god anyhow?

Science & the numbers of mathematic equations, are clearly known as majick (magic, majik, magik) in many other cultures.  just because we can use latin pseudonymns for what others call mysticism does NOT make the western terminology correct.

Name some of these cultures. Link me to some dictionaries.

And to answer one of JH's quotes, magic is not forbiddon in christianity.

It wasn't a question, and the closest thing to magic that is practiced by Christians is demonology (which, despite the -ology ending, is not a hard science).  What you describe (putting curses on people and the like) is forbidden. Please don't make me look up the appropriate passages.

A cult leader may attempt to sway the Bible to say so, yet the writing of the old testament is a system based upon the Kabalah itself.  The very definitions of the words come from the tree of life, one of the most beautiful works high divination has to offer.  I appreciate that you think you know what is forbiddon, but you would supplant truly sacred & holy majick from the Bible, without so much as understanding what you were saying.
The Bible itself is a code or sorts, if you don't like "majick" as a word, and its numbers form the equations of modern science just as much as many other religions now do.  Not to mention that the new testament was based on these same mostly hebrew methodology.  Read the Bible with the books that connect to it, its great.

I'm not sure, but I think every word spoken here is complete gibberish.

I mean, what do we call algebra?  science?

No.

Much of Rocket science, especially, is based on the higher forms of necromancy found not only in the Bible (soloman & a few others) but also in many secret orders & societies.

No it isn't.

Many modern amercian scientists used the Kabalah to figure out how to blow stuff up.  They believed in majick & science as one;  I and many others are no different.

Are you from a Muslim family? I recall a Muslim cleric a few years back who said Western scientists secretly read the Koran for ideas.

Call it engineering, these were taken out of old "wizards" long abandoed towers, old tombs of lore...  we didn't just "discover" all this on our own, it is cultural progression of AGES.

You play too many video games.

I am making a fantasy rpg game & i believe i live in one.
accept it, lol.  that's my religion.  I've seen too many ages pass now...

I know this is intelligent debate and all, but... you are the dumbest person in the world.

No one here IMO was being this way outwardly enough to say you're encountering bigotry here.

I am bigoted towards this guy.

No one here IMO was being this way outwardly enough to say you're encountering bigotry here.

I am bigoted towards this guy.

Ha, ok. You didn't seem to show it too much before.

@ Everyone: Let's try to actually keep this as an intelligent debate, and not an argument... Not that it's gotten that far yet, it's just that I hate splitting topics. 

A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from their own. The origin of the word in English dates back to at least 1598, via Middle French, and started with the sense of religious hypocrite, especially a woman.

Bigot is often used as a pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to their prejudices even when these views are challenged or proven to be false. Forms of bigotry may have a related ideology or world views.

--Wikkipedia

 & i really don't care about spelling, tis my way

You're a moderator?  wow
dunno where you pulled that definition from, but nice one trying to call me out with semantics in an argument where I'm saying the terminology is redundant... lol, all i'm saying is it wouldn't hurt yall to get cultured.   read some crowley, pick up some other religions;  this mechanized denial is only a shadow of predestined thought.

I don't want attention.  I honestly thought that most would agree with me.
I do believe this life is a game, a contest of the gods to find the best players to save the universe.
This was not a joke.  this is the way i relate to this topic.

& to insult me as though I cannot see where I am posting... lol, moderate indeed.  I clearly see the topic & truly do believe my comparisons to games are valid. 
as mentioned, the first final fantasy tactics deals directly with the middle ages & the editing of the Bible.  To play the game through, one will find gnosticism, the secret evocations of the high priests in the churches, etc.  art = life, life = art, and games are the multimedia systhesis of many at once.  this is all vvalid to the point when trying to differentiate between free will & predestination, as the ideologies are cause and effect from those ancient languages. 
To call final fantasy's japanese perspective on religion invalid is to lose a great amount of wisdom through racism, ethnocentrism & bigotry. 
They hold as honest perspectives in any argument if merely given a chance.

I would like to say that this lack of imagination & understanding is troublesome...  thus far i could not collaborate with any of you responding as per closed minded perspectives. 

IMHO, majick clearly effected the different perspectives juxtaposed with the Bible, & most especially the new testament, by means of this same sort of social labeling.

sociology?  I know it.  I see the negative bard debuff that is scribed on this forum, accusations to insult me.  i see them as spells & they only give me more power.  I know social labeling when i see it, this is it clear & simple, flaming on & on, the endless debate over the obvious.  Yet, my songs course through the spirit of the forum now jsut as much, who can say who is right? 

if this was a few hundred years ago, instead of calling me stupid & immature, i would be a heretic witch, burnt for sorcery.  if this was a few thousand, a druid or bard hunted by the empire, a tribal shaman moved from home with imperial rule.  these are all huge AoE bard songs or ethnocentricity, & i see through it like the layers of this reality.

also, simply, the myth of jesus practiced majick.  remember?  water to wine?  healing?  reincarnation?  call it a miracle, & you will find little different between the definitions.

majick is the way of will
idolatry is the way of predestination

for the record, star wars is loosly based on what might be yet takes much of its philosophy from religion.  The idea is not completely without merit, but the first three movies were a little crappy to base a religion on.  I would, however argue much of fantasy is applicably real,  especially JRR Tolkien or Jordan or final fantasy.  we have been making instruments, as a people, for over 300,000 years, & the new fossil of hume beginings is dated at 3.3million:  a lot more happened then most can imagine.   so, no star wars religion or anything, but I do believe every story I have ever heard is real to some place & time. 

You are obviously no older than 14, or else you're just trying to get attention. Or both. The last member this stupid was veltonvelton, with his "Jedi is a real religion" topic.

@ Everyone: Let's try to actually keep this as an intelligent debate, and not an argument... Not that it's gotten that far yet, it's just that I hate splitting topics.

It seems you need to get a dictionary, friend, and look up the word bigotry (which you spelled wrong), and see how it doesn't fit here.

No, nevermind, I'll just put it here for you.

hypocrisy much?
dud you shouldn't be a moderator

JH even said he was a bigot, ethnocentric, a western view... he's proud of it .
for this i get slander
you should use wikipedia Halo

Well, dude, you shouldn't judge before you get to know everybody here. You haven't been here long, we've been here for 1 - 2 years. (Some longer)
Get used to the fact that, well, you're not the dominant species.

And people, PLEASE let us get back on topic.

@oneiromancer - HoTS was not being hypocritcal, he gave you some advice, was being blunt with you, and then asked everybody to get back on topic. In a sense, he was having the last word.

Wow, ok, let's resort to childishness because people disagree with us.  

You're a moderator?  wow
dunno where you pulled that definition from, but nice one trying to call me out with semantics in an argument where I'm saying the terminology is redundant... lol, all i'm saying is it wouldn't hurt yall to get cultured.   read some crowley, pick up some other religions;  this mechanized denial is only a shadow of predestined thought.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&defl=en&q=define:bigotry&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

Quick search on google. Considering the first two were definitions of "bigot", I figured the third would be better suiting. Any person with an IQ over 80 would think the same way, and so sorry I didn't take the 5 extra seconds to think that the other definition listed would have been better. It was obviously lazy on my part and hence makes me a poor moderator.

Christ, what is it with people on these forums today? Everyone is pissed off, and there seems to be even less people with common sense around here than usual.

Also, you should also realize that I don't believe in a religion, and that it's a load of bullshit before you start to make any assumptions.

As for the rest of your post, you cannot honestly tell me you thought everyone would agree with you. Everything you have said is so far out there, that you would've had to have realized that most people would see you as being full of crap. Hence the theory that you're either no older than 14, or just want attention, the 2 most logical choices.

Which brings me to your next post, actually.

I fail to see how you're proving I'm being hypocritical. Yes, I see you're saying that in one post I was saying for everyone to actually debate and not argue, and that in another I'm causing arguments to occur. I believe this is just you misreading the posts.

In the first quote, you obviously think I'm calling you stupid, Ha, just because the word "stupid" is used in a sentence with you in it, doesn't mean it's implying that you are stupid. It was implying it would be stupid for you to pull a stunt such as just trying to get attention, which again I don't know how you can't see one would perceive this as such.

Third quote... are you trying to say I was being mean? Because I corrected your spelling and was claiming you weren't using the word correctly? If so, I hope you never went to school, you might cry.

Now I suppose you will use this post as an example of me being mean to you, so go ahead.

As for me not being suited to be a moderator... is that because I don't share your opinion? Or because I'm not exactly being nice to you? Since when does being staff on a forum mean I have to always be nice, or never express my views? Being a moderator doesn't mean I have to stop being a member of the forums. And obviously a bad moderator wouldn't have tried to keep the situation from turning into something you turned it into. It's people like you who make me regret we even have an Intelligent Debate forum, because they can't handle people disagreeing with them,which you have accused us (or maybe it was just me) of. Yet you accuse me of hypocrisy. If you want to believe this life is just a game, go ahead. I don't really care what you believe, it doesn't affect me in any way. If you want to go around saying I'm a horrible moderator or whatever, go ahead, you're entitled to your opinion. It doesn't matter to me either. That's not going to throw me into a horrible depression or anything becaue one person thinks I'm a horrible mod, although I would be interested in hearing all of your reasons why you think that.

Now, as for the topic.... I hope it's clear now why so many controversial topics get locked here; because they can't be handled in a mature manner. So, this will be locked until I clean out the crap, and then we'll resume discussion in a bit.

EDIT: On second thought, I'll give a second chance for oneiromancer's discussion here. I can't really clean this topic while letting it still make sense without removing important posts, so...

CUT THE CRAP. I'm sure you people can be mature about this. So, don't even bother replying to my post, I will not respond. I'll only be checking here to make sure it doesn't go nuts, I have better things to do than argue with people over the internet.