Gay or Straight?

P.S. wikipedia is one of the worse sources ever for actual research. Fail.

Spoiler for:

A common question posed by laymen and students of social sciences raises the distinction between the term “sex” and the term “gender”. Many people use the two words incorrectly, as interchangeable, when they signify two very different things.
Sex – Determined by Physical Anatomy, Biological Description

Sex is determined biologically and refers to an individuals physical anatomy – genitalia, facial hair, body structure and composition. Sex refers to the biological characteristics that separate male from female.

Sex is not culturally influenced in a direct way (although certain cultures believe in certain practices or influences impact the sex of a child during pregnancy) and is normally considered to be completely biological in nature, uninfluenced by cultures, norms, values, or mores.
Gender – Determined by Social, Cultural Affiliation, Learned Behaviours

Gender is determined by social interaction, exchange, and absorption of peer, familial, and larger cultural values that determine gender identity and affiliation.

Gender can be considered fluid in the sense that one can challenge their own gender identity, in some instances holding it completely opposed to their sex.

There, Suite 101 also agrees with me.

Spoiler for:

http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/index.html

What do we mean by "sex" and "gender"?

Sometimes it is hard to understand exactly what is meant by the term "gender", and how it differs from the closely related term "sex".

"Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

"Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women. (Objection here at the usage of men or women; it's a gender-sex loaded term)

To put it another way:

"Male" and "female" are sex categories, while "masculine" and "feminine" are gender categories.

[/quote]

So does World Health Organization.

Whether you want to use their phrasing and say masculine or feminine as man or woman, they still basically agree with me. Sex and gender are not interchangeable words. One is created by society. And one is biological. This is why, although a person who is into transgender can be called homosexual (but perhaps fits in with the LGBT term "Queer" which is more vague) they cannot be accurately called gay, because gay is a social construct used by male men to find other male men, not male women.

so what you're saying is you prefer dicks but would have sex with a woman (complete with uhu) correct?

If yes -
    you are bisexual
If not -
    If you'd only have sex with something that has a dick -
            you are sexually gay
    If you'd only have sex with something that has a uhu -
            you are sexually straight
else -
    you are sexually asexual.
    
Masculinity versus Femininity in sexual preference is subjective and thus does not get included in the discussion of 'sexual' sexuality, since you find a difference between sex and gender.

The fact still remains that you still like dick. You can call who ever has the dick whatever you want, but they're biologically a male and therefore it is gay.

If you also enjoy vagina, you are bisexual.

so what you're saying is you prefer dicks but would have sex with a woman (complete with uhu) correct?

If yes -
    you are bisexual
If not -
    If you'd only have sex with something that has a dick -
            you are sexually gay
    If you'd only have sex with something that has a uhu -
            you are sexually straight
else -
    you are sexually asexual.
    
Masculinity versus Femininity in sexual preference is subjective and thus does not get included in the discussion of 'sexual' sexuality, since you find a difference between sex and gender.

Masculinity is the gender role of MAN.
Femininity is the gender role of WOMAN.

Homosexual, not gay. I don't fit in with the gay community. Why do people use the term lesbian if it just means the same as the term "gay" in our culture? It's a different group.

Not all homosexuals are gay (a term for gay men), even though all gays are homosexual. They could be lesbian, like above, which is a different cultural group I also obviously don't belong in, or some catch-all middle category. I think this catch all category is called Queer in the LGBT slang, which is just a vague sort of homosexuality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer#As_a_contemporary_antonym_of_heteronormative

I found this, I know it's wikipedia, but it's pointing out the same meaning I'm looking for and have seen before, not just on wikipedia. Basically it means people who don't fit in generally with heteronormative ideas.

Lesbian is basically gay for women. Homosexual = BOTH Gay and Lesbian. Gay = man on man, Lesbian = woman on woman. THAT'S WHY WE USE THE TERM LESBIAN. You're obviously not a lesbian, unless you're a woman and you're into pussy.

ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED? What is this?? "Not all homosexuals are gay?" Are you seriously debating in this topic right now. Really. WOW.

Lesbian is basically gay for women. Homosexual = BOTH Gay and Lesbian. Gay = man on man, Lesbian = woman on woman. THAT'S WHY WE USE THE TERM LESBIAN. You're obviously not a lesbian, unless you're a woman and you're into pussy.

ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED? What is this?? "Not all homosexuals are gay?" Are you seriously debating in this topic right now. Really. WOW.

Homosexuality is referring to genitals only, whereas socially there is more to a fucking PERSON than their crotch junk. I know this is hard for you to grasp. If a person takes on a different gender role, complete with looking and acting like a woman, you will treat them like a woman.

It may be so fucking crazy to accept when you've fucked your own semantics up so bad due to slang not being complex enough to describe human beings, but it occurs. A gay man, IS NOT LOOKING, FOR NICE TITS OR CURVES. How hard is that to get? It's a fucking different category.

Homosexuality is not strictly gay or lesbian. It is a part of a whole spectrum of sexuality. Dr. Kinsey, anyone? Sexuality is not as simple as straight or gay. Obviously that's how bisexuality (for one) exists and hundreds of weird fetishes.

Spoiler for:

"If I Like Transsexuals, What Does That Make Me?"

Male trans admirers are often confronted with their own sense of homophobia with regards to themselves, either afraid of possibly being gay or ashamed of being somewhat transgressive.  I tend to think of orientation as a continuum too, with homosexuality and heterosexuality at opposite ends, and very few people actually being strictly one or the other.  A person could be attracted to women 95% of the time, for example, but still encounter the occasional exception where they might be curious about a relationship or encounter with a man.  Transwomen cloud this a little, usually being predominantly feminine, and many admirers are still closer toward the “straight” side of the spectrum in terms of what attracts them
http://www.albertatrans.org/admirers.shtml

>Implying he said he hates vaginas or women

For me, feminine features are pretty much what I like, except of course the genitalia.

So you agree with me then? It wasn't hard for me to discern from his posts that he doesn't find men attractive, just their penises (this is now backed up by a post made after yours). It seemed clear to me that he prefers MTF transgendered people, would have sex with a female and would not have sex with a male. This sexuality is not clearly defined by homosexuality nor bisexuality. I'm not sure why it's necessary to bother, either.

>Implying he said he would have sex with men

penus fetish

>Implying he said he would have sex with men. Once again, this has been clarified by a post made after yours.

It's also nice to see you refer MTF transgendered people as men. Nice work.

a man engages in sexual intercourse with a human being with a penus (man).

Wrong.

homosexual intercourse. (gay)

This is why I think we should avoid such strict classification. Technically, both people involved have the same sexual organs. However, it's not as if people define homosexuality strictly by the organs the partners share. Attraction is not purely sexual, nor is it purely physical or mental. It's all those things combined, with varying degrees depending on the person and how deep they wish to appear (I LOVE YOU FOR YOUR MIIIND). To define attraction to three strict definitions is only going to cause confusion and ultimately, separation.

This guy is attracted to the physical body of a female, the mentality/voice of a woman, and the sexual organ of a male. If this guy were to admit to a person on the street that he is homosexual, I doubt any of them would think, "Oh, so he likes transgendered folk?"

Sexuality is not simple and we shouldn't treat it as such. Rather than trying to classify the varying degrees of attraction, we should not bother at all.

a man engaegs in sexual interourse with a human being witha  uhu (woman) heterosexual intercourse. (straight)

Again, a person with a vagina is not necessarily a woman.

also bisexual just means the person likes both sets of genitalia, personal preference has nothing to do with the classification of sexuality

Which is, again, a simple categorisation of a complex sexuality.

If we're quoting wikipedia, read this:

Human sexuality is how people experience the erotic and express themselves as sexual beings.[1] Frequently driven by the desire for sexual pleasure, human sexuality has biological, physical, and emotional aspects.

however the sexual acts themselves -can- be defined based on the sex of the people involved.

I don't think you'd find too many transgendered people happy to be referred to by their original gender. A MTF transgendered person who is attracted to women is a lesbian, not a heterosexual. To say otherwise would be pretty hurtful, I imagine.

So I'll say it again and again and again and again: sexuality is not simple and we should not attempt to define it as such. Hetero-, homo- and bi-sexuality are far too limited in defining how each partner sees not only the other, but also themselves.

penus + penus = Gay

Derp.

If you'd sleep with a man or a woman, you're bisexual then.

He just said he wouldn't sleep with a man.

P.S. wikipedia is one of the worse sources ever for actual research. Fail.

Somebody doesn't know how to cite sources.

P.S.S.

Post Script Script

as far as seeing MTF as men is concerned, when intercourse is concerned, a male body with a male body is homosexual, no matter who feels what concerning them.  I agree with the idea of gender identity making people's feelings different, but no matter how much they feel different their body is the same so the same base -act- of sex exists. 

Sexuality in the terms I'm speaking in is concerning only the Act of sex between two humans of a given gender, not the subjective social interpretations of people's personalities and body type.  The only classifications that can be given are for the act, because there are constants.  Male and Female.  These things are easily defined.  I'm saying that the act of sex between two beings with penises is Homosexual.

also unless he means he has a shamanistic focus that is shaped like a penus, "penus fetish" means he'd enjoy a penus in sexual intercourse, so if that needs to be clarified I suppose we have to wait.

This whole situation just looks like a bunch of attempting to justify liking cocks without getting the social stigma of admitting to homosexual impulses.  So keep lying to yourself, that works in the long run right?

as far as seeing MTF as men is concerned, when intercourse is concerned, a male body with a male body is homosexual, no matter who feels what concerning them.

also unless he means he has a shamanistic focus that is shaped like a penus, "penus fetish" means he'd enjoy a penus in sexual intercourse, so if that needs to be clarified I suppose we have to wait.

This whole situation just looks like a bunch of attempting to justify liking cocks without getting the social stigma of admitting to homosexual impulses.  So keep lying to yourself, that works in the long run right?

Firstly, I'd have an easier time where I am now by simply ACCEPTING that title if it made sense to my orientation. I'd certainly be more likely to attend a gay bar or club were it that easy.

Homosexual impulses? Using that terminology, since you love it so much...Do impulses qualify as a full orientation? No. And still, a bisexual likes a man as a man and a woman as a woman, not a mixture like I do.

And first of all, this whole discussion is a semantical argument. My semantics are more complex because I see the issue as more complex. Mainly because I won't just run up to a guy and be attracted or what have you. Which is pretty damn important if you want to call someone gay.

So, how much sense do you make?

I'm just talking about the act, not classifying you, classifying sex based on the physical gender of those involved.

I realize it's not possible to classify overall sex including emotions and personalities and such, because it's subjective, I'm not attempting to classify that.  Or you, just the act of sex.

Also bisexuals aren't a 50/50 split or necessarily manly men versus feminine women, bisexual just means both genders, or two genders, as in enjoying both, not necessarily equally, again personal preference interferes with classification so it can't include body types or personalities because subjective.  In the situation of classifying the act, bisexuality can only occur when having sex with both in a group (orgy etc...) or a hermaphrodite.

One last time, I'm classifying the ACT of sex, based on the PHYSICAL GENDER of the people involved, not orientations, not giving you a title, I'm saying sex between two penus-bearing humans is homosexual, which it is.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I realize it came across completely differently than I intended it, and we pretty much agree on most points across the board and were wording things differently.  My bad.

Also bisexuals aren't a 50/50 split, bisexual just means both genders, or two genders, as in enjoying both, not necessarily equally, again personal preference interferes with perfect classification.

One last time, I'm classifying the ACT of sex, based on the PHYSICAL GENDER of the people involved, not orientations, not giving you a title, I'm saying sex between two penus-bearing humans is homosexual, which it is.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I realize it came across completely differently than I intended it, and we pretty much agree on most points across the board and were wording things differently.  My bad.

Thanks, I appreciate you for clarifying the situation. I had the idea that the semantics were making this weirder than it should have been. And again about the physical gender, it's better to use the term "sex" maybe but maybe not, seems to add confusion...XD Hard to have a dialogue with such flimsy terms.

Well, if you want to go by that flexible definition of bi, then that would make me bisexual. Though I still feel these terms are very inadequate to describe the full breadth of human sexuality. Every other time I hear of some bisexual guy I've asked them about transpersons and they didn't really like the idea.

I feel that everybody is bisexual to some degree, and that there is no absolute homo or heterosexual persons at all on the earth, so I don't try to classify people, just the stuff I can classify, being the act

that is to say that people's minds and personalities and identities are too varied and subjective to be classified.

a man engages in sexual intercourse with a human being with a penus (man).

Wrong.

Wut?

Yeah it is.

I feel that everybody is bisexual to some degree, and that there is no absolute homo or heterosexual persons at all on the earth, so I don't try to classify people, just the stuff I can classify, being the act

that is to say that people's minds and personalities and identities are too varied and subjective to be classified.

Ah, I see. Sorry, I wasn't going by that criteria, though it does make a lot of sense to focus on that instead.

as far as seeing MTF as men is concerned, when intercourse is concerned, a male body with a male body is homosexual, no matter who feels what concerning them

Welp, he's already said he doesn't find the male body attractive.  

The only classifications that can be given are for the act, because there are constants.  Male and Female. These things are easily defined.  I'm saying that the act of sex between two beings with penises is Homosexual.

Biologically, sexuality can encompass sexual intercourse and sexual contact in all its forms, as well as medical concerns about the physiological or even psychological aspects of sexual behaviour.

Haven't recent studies shown that often transgendered people have different... I don't want to guess since I've forgotten and I'm no biologist... SOMETHING inside them that reveals they are somewhat biologically the opposite sex from birth? The point is, I don't think it's fair to group them with people of their original gender (sex) when they are entirely different and want to be as far removed from their sex as possible. I also don't think it's fair to group a person who is mostly attracted to MTF transgendered people in with a sexuality that is considered by almost everybody to be man-on-man.

This whole situation just looks like a bunch of attempting to justify liking cocks without getting the social stigma of admitting to homosexual impulses.  So keep lying to yourself, that works in the long run right?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

a man engages in sexual intercourse with a human being with a penus (man).

Wrong.

Wut?

Yeah it is.

A human being with a penis is not necessarily a man.

However, we're mostly arguing semantics now.

Ah, I see. Sorry, I wasn't going by that criteria, though it does make a lot of sense to focus on that instead.

I wasn't clear at first, sorry for that

Haven't recent studies shown that often transgendered people have different... I don't want to guess since I've forgotten and I'm no biologist... SOMETHING inside them that reveals they are somewhat biologically the opposite sex from birth? The point is, I don't think it's fair to group them with people of their original gender (sex) when they are entirely different and want to be as far removed from their sex as possible. I also don't think it's fair to group a person who is mostly attracted to MTF transgendered people in with a sexuality that is considered by almost everybody to be man-on-man.

chemical imbalances while in the womb cause the brain to develop similarly to the opposite gender, even though physical gender has already been decided genetically.
Physical gender is determined by chromosomes, even a MTF has XX chromosomes.

I don't group TG people with their original gender, and I'm not saying that they are wrong for feeling how they are or whatever (lordy that would be hypocritical) I'm just applying a straightforward and cut and dry classification to the act of sex, based on the physical bodies involved.  Not telling people what to call themselves or how to feel or something.

But that does bring up an interesting gray area.  Is a MTF vagina still a penis for the determination of classifying the act of sex with them?  I'm not sure I have a good answer at this point, or will ever.  I'm just classifying what I can.

Like I said, I was unclear about what I was trying to say, and I apologize for the misunderstanding.

I wasn't referring to a chemical imbalance (which seems a copout). I am also well aware that a transgendered person does not suddenly swap out an old chromosome for a new one. However, I remember reading something not long ago that found it to be a birth "defect." It's probably got something to do with chromosomes and all that good stuff.

I've done research and all I could find was the research showing that transgendered individuals were exposed to high levels of both estrogen and testosterone while growing in the womb, which caused the brain to develop awkwardly.

If you've found something else I'd love to see it though