The Golden Age of Game Making?

Inspired by the talk on the single board moderators topic, I thought it might be a good idea to start a discussion about the different RPG makers. This isn't here to say which one you think is best or worst, but more to say when the best oportunities and games where available. For example, has RMVX allowed for easier game creation or does it just mean the forums gets flooded with poor quality games? Did the high level of resources make RMXP the most diverse of the rpg makers?

Things to consider are the resources available, the quality of the finished games, the amount/availability of the finished games and also things like how committed people are to their projects (justifing why this changes from maker to maker). So, what do you think? Is RMVX the gateway to the golden age of game making? Or has it been a steady decline since the days of RM2k/3?

Discuss!

If you ask me, I love RMXP to death, but RM2k3 was probably the best days of RPG Maker. Mainly because it was easy enough for people to work with it, but it still had enough challenges in order to drive away some of the not so eager people.

But, with RMXP, everything was practically pre-made because of all the resources available. This made people think they could just slap together a lot of resources and they instantly had an awesome game. And thus, the age of "RM Idiocy" was born. Sure, they were there during the earlier years, but from what I can tell, it wasn't near as prominent.

And as for RMVX... It has seemed to almost even out. The only people who I really see who use RMVX very much are people who are actually capable of making decent games. Although I don't really care much for VX so I don't pay much attention to it.


All in all, I'd say 2000/2003 were the best years for the RPG Maker community. RMXP is a great program, but it can be used for evil way too easily. And by evil, I mean stupid.


Also, this is all based on my experience, and I came in during the height of RMXP. So, I only caught a glimpse of the 2003 era, but from what I saw, it was great.

I agree with what you say there. I too started to mess around with game makers during the height of RMXP. The sheer wealth of resources available made for it is undoubtably the seeds of it's popularity. I would actually go to work and a few hours in think "I want to go home and make a game!". It was that bad lol. I also remember wondering why people still used rm2k/3 when a newer, 'better', maker was available. Now I know better however; rm2k/3 served for the basis for many peoples love affair with game making. Some still use it, while others went on to RMXP and now RMVX.

Some might argue it's still too early to see how rmvx will change things. Although so far I would say things look promising. We arn't exactly being flooded with poor quality games (at the moment anyway) and more resources are being made everyday. I guess it is feasible however that the more resources available the worse the quality of the game gets. It really depends on how the people who have moved from rm2k/3 and rmxp to rmvx act. If they start to churn out poor quality games, everyone will think it is exceptable. Hopefully, however, with experience of making games already, they will produce games of a high quality, seting the standards for the generation of games to come. Do you think this will be the case?

But, with RMXP, everything was practically pre-made because of all the resources available. This made people think they could just slap together a lot of resources and they instantly had an awesome game. And thus, the age of "RM Idiocy" was born. Sure, they were there during the earlier years, but from what I can tell, it wasn't near as prominent.

*Cough*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llABqESieIs&feature=channel_page*cough*

Oh god this is so true, in rm2k/3 days, you have to learn stuff so that you can do this and that, in these past few days, we are littered with RTP VX and XP games and you can barely see any.variety.at.all. I rather see rips a lot of times than RTP because it was getting tiring and every game looks the same with facemaker graphics, but then again there's this work with what you can.

I dunno, it's just, the appeal of the rm2k/3 days is way different from today, a lot of people just copy pasta scripts, make a stupid storyline that isn't well thought and just recruit everyone that it's getting annoying...

Basically just my two cents *flips cents*

As it's been said already, RM2k and RM2k3 were the golden years. The fact that you couldn't use scripts forced people to think, and be creative with events. Even with the restrictions, there are awsome games that have came out that people have made with 2k3. An example would be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sktPntINw8M&feature=channel_page (Sacred Earth) Even with the default battle system there are so many directions you could take it. You had variables, switchs, common events, and the options to use pictures. Personally, when I got into the RM, I started with XP but ended up falling back to 2k3. I leared how to do most things via eventing. Thus I learned how not to rely on scripts heavely when switching to VX. Though, there are some things that can only be done by scripts, but the one thing I noticed is some people turn to scripts and think that is the only way to do things.
VX, I think will bring back a little bit of the eventing, but as long as there is a script option there will be new people to RM that will resort to asking for a script over trying to challange themselfs and eventing it. One thing that does tick me off from my switch to VX though is the 20 pictures limit  I had to scrap a few battle systems because of it.

the problem isn't with scripts vs events.
the problem is with the people.
back in the day with 2k3 everyone who made a bad game, made a bad 'generic' game.  nowadays, they can make a bad game with good scripts.

nothing's really changed, except the ease of customizing your game.
that being said, I'm all for XP.

Eventing is still crucial to RM, and I always see if I can event something without scripts first, but scripts offer a whole new (sometimes much easier) way to get things done.

the lazy people are the ones taht drop out and don't finish their project.  the process of making a game hasn't become any easier, truly, and it's still a huge blocker for people who aren't dedicated to the art.

Well it isn't the eventing vs. scripting that is going on here, it's just in the rm2k/3 days, a lot of people put thought into making their video games and being realistic because they know that wanting this and that will be hard work. Right now, because of the availability of scripts, most game makers(o rly?) think it doesn't matter if they have a lame storyline since a commercial game did it and that they're game is automatically cool because of the scripts they have like the youtube vid I posted above.

wasn't really trying to say as eventing vs scripts @_@; I tend to be bad with words but what NAMKCOR said "back in the day with 2k3 everyone who made a bad game, made a bad 'generic' game.  nowadays, they can make a bad game with good scripts." was pretty much what I was aiming for. Just with 2k3, you either had to completely event your own battle system, or work with the default. XP added more customization by adding the script option, but pretty much anyone "can make a bad game with good scripts."

Right, I'm just saying that if there was a "golden age" it hasn't ended yet.

Just because there are scripts, doesn't mean that the bar was lowered in any way, in fact, with the introduction of scripting to allow you to mess with any aspect of your game, the bar was raised, and people demand higher quality games, now that custom systems are so easy.

The emphasis on story hasn't faded.
The usefulness of eventing hasn't faded.
The need for creativity hasn't faded.

All of these have become even -more- important than they were back when 2k3 was the norm, because back with 2k3, if you could custom event a badass battle system, people would be amazed right off the bat.  That game would be praised as gold, even if the story happened to be generic.

With all the freedom XP gives you, there's so much more you can do with a game, and thus, expectations are raised.  If anything, things just got better when XP came out.

that's just my two cents though.

This is not the Golden Age of game making; it is the Gilded Age, an era of mediocrity and fear hidden under the facade of superior development tools.  The seeds of creativity are continually being snuffed.  So many threads started by your novice game designer are greeted by negativity and uncalled for comparisons between it and the top of the Indie scene.  In doing so, we have limited the market on ourselves, and stinted potential contributors to the community by striking them down early.  We all started somewhere, didn't we?  It wasn't that long ago that a game did not have to rival professional quality to get praise, praise that fosters greater creativity and confidence.  Remember the classics like Kinetic Cipher and A Blurred Line?  Neither of these games are graphical gems.  Neither of these games makes heavy use of custom systems.  Regardless, we pushed them to the top because there is something to be said for following through with a vision.  There were exceptional qualities to these games and we focused on those in our responses instead of the negative.  In short, the nurturing environment that was once so prominent in the game development scene is now gone, which is a terrible travesty.  Fewer games get released as a result, many projects quit because the author could not keep up with the unrealistic demands.  We have better tools, more weapons at our disposal, shouldn't it be easier to get something out there, whether a demo or full game?  We've made it harder.  Anything with even the smallest imperfection gets absolutely railed in the game development community.  Games with great potential get shut down immediately.  A change in attitude is needed if the development community, and RPG Maker in general, is to survive.

I'm not sure where you're getting your info, but a lot of what is offered is constructive criticizm around here (at least from me >_>).  There are just some rare, and loud, cases that decide it's flame, not help.  Case in point, Billy Bullshot

and it's mostly a case of "your maps could use some work, here's some tutorials"

@Madriel I know where you get that, it is true a lot of communities are like that as of now, people's standards just went high but it can't be helped if some people refuse to take critic and rather do it their own way and not applying it at all.

In my opinion. RM2K/3 were the good years. There was no scripting for ambitious noobs to easily toss into their game. You actually needed to be creative with events if you wanted to break away.

Not to mention that not everyone and their mother used the RTP either. The use of rips was more prevalent, but it's really no different from using the RTP in a way. If too many people use the same set of graphics others are inevitably going to get fed up with seeing it. So it's not really 'rips are better than RTP', it's I want to see a 'unique spin on things'

Also, to this day I still feel that while RMXP and RMVX have an awesome level of customization, a good half or more of it's userbase is cut off from it. RM2k3, even if it doesn't have scripting still retains this feeling of pure ease of use that Enterbrain has yet to accomplish again.

But this isn't about which maker is better, so I'm going to quit ranting there.

Just because there are scripts, doesn't mean that the bar was lowered in any way, in fact, with the introduction of scripting to allow you to mess with any aspect of your game, the bar was raised, and people demand higher quality games, now that custom systems are so easy.

While this is definitely true. I can honestly say that I have yet to see anyone take full advantage of RGSS in the english community. Most of RGSS' use is 'find script here, paste into game, mess around a bit, done!'.

There are only a handful of original RGSS efforts in games I can think of. None of them from us.

I wonder how the RMXP/VX community would have been like if no one shared major script systems. It's something to think about.

All of these have become even -more- important than they were back when 2k3 was the norm, because back with 2k3, if you could custom event a badass battle system, people would be amazed right off the bat.  That game would be praised as gold, even if the story happened to be generic.

This is true. One example I can think of without meaning any offense would be Legend of The Philosopher's Stone. It's battle system is well made, but the overreaching story is pretty typical sounding. The execution on the other hand is pretty nice. So that must be what it has going for it.

And as a side note, I must agree with Madriel somewhat. While I haven't seen a ton of it these days. The attitude of the RM community has obviously shifted from the old days.

While this is definitely true. I can honestly say that I have yet to see anyone take full advantage of RGSS in the english community. Most of RGSS' use is 'find script here, paste into game, mess around a bit, done!'.

and then that game is called crap, and the maker gets offended that their little effortless game didn't recieve endless praise.  Just because someone can copy and paste a custom system, doesn't mean people will call their game good.  I'm totally not seeing how scripts caused some sort of downfall in the RM community.

There are only a handful of original RGSS efforts in games I can think of. None of them from us.

that is rather unfortunate, and I'm hoping my next big game will change that

I wonder how the RMXP/VX community would have been like if no one shared major script systems. It's something to think about.

probably totally dead.

And as a side note, I must agree with Madriel somewhat. While I haven't seen a ton of it these days. The attitude of the RM community has obviously shifted from the old days.

That's because a lot of people think that they'll make a great game with no effort.  And when they're shown otherwise, they get pissed off.  So threads turn from "hey your mapping could use some work" into "DUDE SHUT UP YOUR MAPPING SUCKS WE TRIED TO HELP YOU BUT YOU KNOW WHAT SCREW YOU!"

This is not the Golden Age of game making; it is the Gilded Age, an era of mediocrity and fear hidden under the facade of superior development tools.

People choose to hide behind the 'facade'. It's in siezing the tools and making full use of them that is when great games are made. Many people don't realise this. All parts of the game must fit perfectly into each other. From the battle systems to the story line and the database. The more options available may allow for people to make better games, however it becomes harder from them to use them.

The seeds of creativity are continually being snuffed.  So many threads started by your novice game designer are greeted by negativity and uncalled for comparisons between it and the top of the Indie scene.  In doing so, we have limited the market on ourselves, and stinted potential contributors to the community by striking them down early.

I don't believe that this community itself is too hard on new people to the game maker scene. It is, however, when they unthinkingly refuse to take the advice we give and even become angry because of it that we must cast them out. The amount of people that come to the forums, ask a question, get the answer and leave also puts off established members from taking much notice of new people. It's sad but it's just the way things have worked out. Those who still try to help new people are rarely rewarded for doing so.

In short, the nurturing environment that was once so prominent in the game development scene is now gone, which is a terrible travesty.  Fewer games get released as a result, many projects quit because the author could not keep up with the unrealistic demands.  We have better tools, more weapons at our disposal, shouldn't it be easier to get something out there, whether a demo or full game?  We've made it harder.  Anything with even the smallest imperfection gets absolutely railed in the game development community.  Games with great potential get shut down immediately.  A change in attitude is needed if the development community, and RPG Maker in general, is to survive.

A strong statement to be sure. But I guess it does have some truth. People sometimes forget that not all games will be perfect or too their highest standards. However, I feel that this 'tough love' is not always bad. It means people have to actually try on their games to get them noticed and liked. There are several very promising games on this forum which are so because of the will of the creator to make them good, including 'made-for-the-game' graphics. That being said, a great game can still be made without having to make anything themselves, except for the obvious storyline and stuff that goes along with that. I believe that everyone gets their just amount of help and praise based upon their effort and willingness.

While this is definitely true. I can honestly say that I have yet to see anyone take full advantage of RGSS in the english community. Most of RGSS' use is 'find script here, paste into game, mess around a bit, done!'.

and then that game is called crap, and the maker gets offended that their little effortless game didn't recieve endless praise.  Just because someone can copy and paste a custom system, doesn't mean people will call their game good.  I'm totally not seeing how scripts caused some sort of downfall in the RM community.

Scripts only make part of a game. Even with own made perfect scripts that do all sorts, I would still regard the game as crap if there was no plausable astoryline to follow. I guess I'm just more impressed by creativity then flash. Not to say making your own scripts isn't creativity though, but you know what I mean. Also, agreed, some people who are new to the rpg maker areana don't seem to realise that some real work needs to be put into a game for it to be recognised on a large scale. Again, this is all part of the 'tough love'.

I wonder how the RMXP/VX community would have been like if no one shared major script systems. It's something to think about.

probably totally dead.

Also probably a selected handful who know how to script and make the 'elitist' games because of it. I guess we are lucky that this isn't the case.

And as a side note, I must agree with Madriel somewhat. While I haven't seen a ton of it these days. The attitude of the RM community has obviously shifted from the old days.

That's because a lot of people think that they'll make a great game with no effort.  And when they're shown otherwise, they get pissed off.  So threads turn from "hey your mapping could use some work" into "DUDE SHUT UP YOUR MAPPING SUCKS WE TRIED TO HELP YOU BUT YOU KNOW WHAT SCREW YOU!"

Some people don't seem to realise that you are trying to help so respond negetivly. Sad, but true. And of course the attitude of the RM community has shifted. If it did not move and evolve, then it would cease to exist as it is overtaken by other things and oppressed. A new rpg maker requires new thought processes. "What is exceptable from this kind of rpg maker?", "Should the amount of resources available make me expect to see less RTP and more custom content?". Standards change, opinions change, people change.

A game is only as good as the people/person who made it. Usually, it goes in one of three directions:

1. The concept of the whole project is trite and unoriginal. Nobody wants to play a game that has the depth of Final Fantasy 1 anymore, and if they did, they'd most likely just play the original. A story is oft the most important part of a game, and this is especially so when using a sprite-based program, where an artist's options are somewhat limited.

2. The creator is really bad at art concept. You could have the best story in the world, and it won't save your game if it looks like shit. Most people look at screenshots before deciding to try a game out. If there isn't something there to grab attention right off the bat, then the game most likely goes unplayed.

3. Too many creators don't see their project through to the end. The completed projects section is fractional compared to the projects in progress, and even the canceled projects. We all know that life gets in the way sometimes, but if you really want to make a game, see it through to the end. I think a lot of this stems from people thinking they're Fellini, and being so pretentious about their game that it is bound to fail. I always say this, but don't make a game be called "Part I" or "Chapter 1" if you aren't even going to finish it.

I think that most of these problems could be fixed if people could get a good team together and stick with it. Rather than come in and call yourself a company, get an actual team together, and keep each other motivated.

In short: laziness.

RPG Maker would be a lot better if it didn't have an RTP. There, I said it.

I sort of agree with that and I sort of don't. I think that more of the games that were released with RM would be better if that were the cse, but I also think very few people would pick it up as something to have fun with. I think that a lot of the charm of RPG Maker comes from it taking very little effort to make a fun little (probably shitty) game, but that there's always more to learn and was to improve how you use the program. If everybody that wanted to make a game had to first plan a project and get art for it, then I think it would stop being as much fun. I view RPG Maker itself as a game to be played for fun, rather than a developer's tool to make some other game. Obviously, if you're going to share it, post it on a forum, etc... then you are participating in the development aspect of the game and it should be treated as such, but I've never released any of the games I've made just from playing around with the system.

Also, @ HowlingWinds:  http://rmrk.net/index.php/topic,25260.0.html  It's a script, but its only function is to make eventing easier and so I think it is acceptable.

I view RPG Maker itself as a game to be played for fun, rather than a developer's tool to make some other game.

In this mindset, I agree.

I view RPG Maker itself as a game to be played for fun, rather than a developer's tool to make some other game.

In this mindset, I agree.

Indeed.
However, when the fun dies out so does the game in progress. That's the problem.

I know I'm not a pro in this community, but I know what everyone's talking about. For me, RPG XP is the golden one because I like the eventing. On the downside, I rarely have Internet access, so I gotta either make my own scripts or my own event system. I guess a lot of you would say that's the good part, because it challenges my creativity. My problem is a lack of materials and developed talent. Since I made my sig picture or whatever that's called, my manga art has improved a lot, and because of plenty of resources, I improve every day. That seems great until you consider the fact that I don't have a scanner, and I was lucky to get that picture on. On the other side, my RPG Maker skills aren't top of the line. I'm a high school freshman, so I am a little young for this, even if it is gonna be my career someday. I can't script well at all, my pixel art is crap, and . . . whoa . . . that's all. Anyway, I'm testing into college English, so I'm not a noob at grammar, character development, and story.

Sorry about getting off topic, but my point is, even with the ability to copy and paste scripts, some people (like me) just can't pull off a piece of crap game with one decent script. Sure, I liked 2003, but I've never liked the Final Fantasy battle system, and I'm not to the ABS level of eventing. VX, I think, was XP with a cooler-looking interface and a little more RTP involvement. I hate how you have to make room for six sprites when you only wanna put one in. And the picture limit was retarded too, even though I never got that far.

I'm all for XP, but I don't think the others are bad either. I know I wasted some space here, and I didn't go as in-depth as a lot of people. It's just my opinion.

I gotta say, RMXP is probably the best one. It's the only one that's good nice graphics and can script in too!

I was sooo disappointed when I upgraded from VX to XP and I found out they got rid of the feature when you added faces to the message. I now have a script that does it, but I think it still should have been a built-in feature.
Do you think they will release another maker soon (or ever)?

when I upgraded from VX to XP

VX is newer than XP, so you actually downgraded. But, I do agree, XP should have kept the face option from 2k3.

Do you think they will release another maker soon (or ever)?

I figure they are already working on one. It seems like a big money maker, so I don't expect to ever see that series stop. Although, it will probably be a few more years before a new RPG Maker comes out.

Camala, when they say Golden age of RM, it's the boom of created games, Rm2k/3 era has a lot of variety as well as new things that made RM to what it is today rpgmaker XP after what? 5 years? Didn't do as much hype as what 2k3 did like before.

XP didn't do much tbh that's what I noticed before...