Are Save tutorials necessary?

Zxmelee said you were thrown into the game clueless, and people said that they had trouble with the battles because of lack of a tutorial.  I agree that I could have and should have put in a battle tutorial.

Zx is hardly 'everyone'

You are telling me that I should have to tell the player when to save.  That is entirely NOT my responsibility.

This is your responsibility, as the player shouldn't have to try to guess when it's necessary to save. If you don't point it out, the player could go the whole game without saving and die on the last boss, especially non-gamers. Just about every game I've played tells you how to save. The simple fact that it's telling you how to save tells me that it might actually be a good idea to do it. If a game doesn't tell you to save, I assume I won't need to save, since it's not important enough to point out.

Also, taking it all out of context to say I get pissed when you say that my game isn't 'the best game ever' is a childish response created for the sole fact that you can't defend your point anymore.

No, I said it because YOU'RE acting childish over a little criticism. I stopped defending my point in the previous post because you said "I am not going to bicker with you over this further."

Keep bitching that you weren't smart enough to save all you want, I really don't care at this point.

Once again, I'm not bitching. I'm criticizing. My criticism is valid.

I agree 110%.

I'm not going to have an anonymous faceless voice come into the story to say OH BY THE WAY THAT GLOWING CRYSTAL IS A SAVE POINT! when the entire point of the game is to tell a story, and to maintain the flow of the story.

IT IS NOT GOING TO KILL thE FLOW OF YOUR STORY. IT WILL MAKE YOUR GAME SEEM LIKE IT HAS A LITTLE DIRECTION.

Leon: Yeah...I always liked mom best...
Dave: continue...
<GM>: The glowing crystal in ther corner ofyour room is a save point, you might want to use it so that if you die you can restart from the saved point in the game and not have to play it from the start.
<play>

that's a storyline break.  It breaks the flow to throw information about the game at the player.  It's called 'breaking the 4th wall' such as when you are told to 'press the 'O' button to shoot!'.  I wanted to avoid distancing the player from the game, and in order to do that, I maintained story flow and composition, by NOT breaking the 4th wall as best I could.  If you notice, when you use the save point Dave asks you 'would you like to take a break here?'  Even the presentation of the save point is in some way a continuation of the storyline.

The game is about the story, I made that abundantly clear at the beginning of all this.  My decision and reasoning are as valid as your "criticism" is.  And again, the fact is brought up, that -you- are the only person to have this issue.

I'm not going to have an anonymous faceless voice come into the story to say OH BY THE WAY THAT GLOWING CRYSTAL IS A SAVE POINT! when the entire point of the game is to tell a story, and to maintain the flow of the story.

IT IS NOT GOING TO KILL thE FLOW OF YOUR STORY. IT WILL MAKE YOUR GAME SEEM LIKE IT HAS A LITTLE DIRECTION.

Leon: Yeah...I always liked mom best...
Dave: continue...
<GM>: The glowing crystal in ther corner ofyour room is a save point, you might want to use it so that if you die you can restart from the saved point in the game and not have to play it from the start.
<play>

that's a storyline break.  It breaks the flow to throw information about the game at the player.  It's called 'breaking the 4th wall' such as when you are told to 'press the 'O' button to shoot!'.  I wanted to avoid distancing the player from the game, and in order to do that, I maintained story flow and composition, by NOT breaking the 4th wall as best I could.  If you notice, when you use the save point Dave asks you 'would you like to take a break here?'  Even the presentation of the save point is in some way a continuation of the storyline.

Actually, it might be a better idea to have the save screen automatically pot up after you beat each chapter. That way you don't have crystals which have no relation to the story floating around at random places in the world. How many glowing crystals do you see floating around your house? If you want the story to make sense, the character would say "and there were these strange, oversized, floating crystals that I saw all the time" to the guy he's speaking to.

tell me, Irock, what would piss you off more?
having to restart an entire chapter because you lost on the final match of the fighting tournament, or having a floating crystal that exists only as a visual way to let you take a break and save your game?

I avoided breaking the story as far as I could, and made an exception for the purpose of save points, as I felt it necessary to allow people to save their games while playing, due to the difficulty of the game.  Their locations, also, aren't 'random'.  I selected each one to be a point where oh...I don't know....it might be a GOOD IDEA to save?

tell me, Irock, what would piss you off more?
having to restart an entire chapter because you lost on the final match of the fighting tournament, or having a floating crystal that exists only as a visual way to let you take a break and save your game?

Neither would piss me off, but floating crystals make me hate your game, because it makes no sense that they don't mention them in the story. If I saw a glowing crystals in my room, I'd run and ask my mom what the hell is going on. I'd probably also mention it to anyone asking about my life. Just have the save screen show up after major battles.

I avoided breaking the story as far as I could, and made an exception for the purpose of save points, as I felt it necessary to allow people to save their games while playing, due to the difficulty of the game.  Their locations, also, aren't 'random'.  I selected each one to be a point where oh...I don't know....it might be a GOOD IDEA to save?

It would make just as much sense to have a save screen appear after chapters and major battles as it would to have the screen tint to yellow while someone's talking, an image that says "Chapter #" appear after you complete a section of your life, music to play while you're in the game, and to have a random kid whom is weaker than you actually punch 3 guys and make them stop attacking you, without them retaliating. And it makes a hell of a lot more sense than having big ass glowing crystals floating around everywhere.

Neither would piss me off, but floating crystals make me hate your game, because it makes no sense that they don't mention them in the story.

then don't play it, and shut up, because -obviously- you're not in my target audience, and I wasn't attempting to appeal to you.

They aren't mentioned in the story because....*gasp* THEY AREN'T A PART OF THE GODDAMNED STORY!  oh wait, I haven't said that yet, have I? no WONDER you didn't make that connection, I didn't -tell- you.  *slaps forehead* jeeze, I never knew that I had to tell the player EVERYTHING about the game and not let them figure anything out on their own!

If I saw a glowing crystals in my room, I'd run and ask my mom what the hell is going on. I'd probably also mention it to anyone asking about my life.

that statement is total bullshit, as this is a game, not Real Life, it's a work of fiction.

It would make just as much sense to have a save screen appear after chapters and major battles as it would to have the screen tint to yellow while someone's talking, an image that says "Chapter #" appear after you complete a section of your life, music to play while you're in the game, and to have a random kid whom is weaker than you actually punch 3 guys and make them stop attacking you, without them retaliating. And it makes a hell of a lot more sense than having big ass glowing crystals floating around everywhere.

I knew you were going to respond with that.
I chose to have the game break when the player thought "I should save right now"
the player brings THEMSELVES out of the story
I didn't want to get the player involved in the story, and then
would you like to save now?
yes/no?
have the story break because they accomplished something and were right in the middle of
would you like to save now?
yes/no?
part of the storyline.

Also, Aaron isn't weaker than Leon.  Use 'Rebel Yell' and he'll do a good 1.5x to 2x the damage you'll get out of Leon's attacks.  Not only that, but if you use 'Gimp' with Leon, you can cut your enemy's strength in half, effectively cutting their attack power in half, making the game SO MUCH FREAKING EASIER.  Oh but wait, I didn't tell you thi....YES I FUCKING DID! IT'S IN THE GODDAMNED SKILL DESCRIPTIONS.

Neither would piss me off, but floating crystals make me hate your game, because it makes no sense that they don't mention them in the story.

then don't play it, and shut up, because -obviously- you're not in my target audience, and I wasn't attempting to appeal to you.

No need to act childish. Don't get mad because I don't think your game is the best game every made.

They aren't mentioned in the story because....*gasp* THEY AREN'T A PART OF THE GODDAMNED STORY!  oh wait, I haven't said that yet, have I? no WONDER you didn't make that connection, I didn't -tell- you.  *slaps forehead* jeeze, I never knew that I had to tell the player EVERYTHING about the game and not let them figure anything out on their own!

They aren't part of the story because you don't factor in that it's kind of odd to have big ass floating crystals everywhere.

If I saw a glowing crystals in my room, I'd run and ask my mom what the hell is going on. I'd probably also mention it to anyone asking about my life.

that statement is total bullshit, as this is a game, not Real Life, it's a work of fiction.

Right! They never explain why there are strange things in fiction. I wouldn't wonder why there are flying carrots, a lake full of glowing yellow water, and floating crystals the size of a person. These things shouldn't be explained, because the player has no business wondering what they are, right? They're just supposed to accept them! No, not really. I wouldn't mind knowing what all this crazy unrealistic nonsense is.

It would make just as much sense to have a save screen appear after chapters and major battles as it would to have the screen tint to yellow while someone's talking, an image that says "Chapter #" appear after you complete a section of your life, music to play while you're in the game, and to have a random kid whom is weaker than you actually punch 3 guys and make them stop attacking you, without them retaliating. And it makes a hell of a lot more sense than having big ass glowing crystals floating around everywhere.

I knew you were going to respond with that.
I chose to have the game break when the player thought "I should save right now"
the player brings THEMSELVES out of the story
I didn't want to get the player involved in the story, and then
would you like to save now?
yes/no?
have the story break because they accomplished something and were right in the middle of
would you like to save now?
yes/no?
part of the storyline.

You'd be pretty dumb if you put it in between text boxes. That would just be unnecessary. Just have it in between big battles and chapters.

Also, Aaron isn't weaker than Leon.  Use 'Rebel Yell' and he'll do a good 1.5x to 2x the damage you'll get out of Leon's attacks.  Not only that, but if you use 'Gimp' with Leon, you can cut your enemy's strength in half, effectively cutting their attack power in half, making the game SO MUCH FREAKING EASIER.  Oh but wait, I didn't tell you thi....YES I FUCKING DID! IT'S IN THE GODDAMNED SKILL DESCRIPTIONS.

You even admitted that you should have had a battle tutorial. We shouldn't have to guess how long skills work, what exactly they do, and how to use them.

No need to act childish. Don't get mad because I don't think your game is the best game every made.

and again you use this pathetic excuse of an 'argument' because you have no real way to counter my statement.

They aren't part of the story because you don't factor in that it's kind of odd to have big ass floating crystals everywhere.

they aren't part of the story because they break the 4th wall, and exist only to the player.
You should really learn some terminology, meanings, and applications, before attempting to disassemble my arguments.

Right! They never explain why there are strange things in fiction. I wouldn't wonder why there are flying carrots, a lake full of glowing yellow water, and floating crystals the size of a person. These things shouldn't be explained, because the player has no business wondering what they are, right? They're just supposed to accept them! No, not really. I wouldn't mind knowing what all this crazy unrealistic nonsense is.

they aren't 'explained' because they are simply a visual way to allow you to access the save menu.  They do not exist to Leon, Aaron, Dave, or any of the rest of them, they only exist to the player, just as a remote control doesn't exist to the people in a movie, nor does the pause button.

You'd be pretty dumb if you put it in between text boxes. That would just be unnecessary. Just have it in between big battles and chapters.

Imagine that each of those statements was a battle, or a cutscene, and the 'would you like to save?' is in between them.  That's -exactly- what it would have done to my game if I had done that.  So I didn't.

Oh, but you didn't catch that metaphor because I didn't -explain- it to you.  Shoot, sorry Irock, I guess I fucked up again.

You even admitted that you should have had a battle tutorial. We shouldn't have to guess how long skills work, what exactly they do, and how to use them.

Yes, I did admit that I should have put in a battle tutorial.  However, I really couldn't have gotten more clear than "150% attack" or "-50% str" in the skill descriptions, now could I?

No need to act childish. Don't get mad because I don't think your game is the best game every made.

and again you use this pathetic excuse of an 'argument' because you have no real way to counter my statement.

No, I said that because the portion of your post I was responding to was basically a childish insult.

They aren't part of the story because you don't factor in that it's kind of odd to have big ass floating crystals everywhere.

they aren't part of the story because they break the 4th wall, and exist only to the player.
You should really learn some terminology, meanings, and applications, before attempting to disassemble my arguments.

How is the player supposed to tell if a glowing chicken ball duck iPod monster isn't visible to the main character? Wouldn't it just make more sense to have a screen asking you to save, rather than having to guess what's visible and what's not? I mean, you can tell that the hero isn't viewing save screens. They're not even on the map.

Right! They never explain why there are strange things in fiction. I wouldn't wonder why there are flying carrots, a lake full of glowing yellow water, and floating crystals the size of a person. These things shouldn't be explained, because the player has no business wondering what they are, right? They're just supposed to accept them! No, not really. I wouldn't mind knowing what all this crazy unrealistic nonsense is.

they aren't 'explained' because they are simply a visual way to allow you to access the save menu.  They do not exist to Leon, Aaron, Dave, or any of the rest of them, they only exist to the player, just as a remote control doesn't exist to the people in a movie, nor does the pause button.

Read above. Your remote comparison is "total bs." The remote control isn't floating around the screen. It's a device just like the keyboard and the mouse that's used to control what's going on. Most people can tell an actual object from something in a movie.

You'd be pretty dumb if you put it in between text boxes. That would just be unnecessary. Just have it in between big battles and chapters.

Imagine that each of those statements was a battle, or a cutscene, and the 'would you like to save?' is in between them.  That's -exactly- what it would have done to my game if I had done that.  So I didn't.

You can't compare parts of a sentence to major events in a game. The battles aren't short, and the chapters aren't short. You're not interrupting the battles, and you're not interrupting the chapters, but you ARE interrupting sentences.

Oh, but you didn't catch that metaphor because I didn't -explain- it to you.  Shoot, sorry Irock, I guess I fucked up again.

durr durr I'm irock durr durr

You even admitted that you should have had a battle tutorial. We shouldn't have to guess how long skills work, what exactly they do, and how to use them.

Yes, I did admit that I should have put in a battle tutorial.  However, I really couldn't have gotten more clear than "150% attack" or "-50% str" in the skill descriptions, now could I?

Most games would tell you that it might be a good idea to use your skills.

Namkcor this is an argument you cannot win or lose. Irock doesn't argue. He picks a point and sticks to it like glue, no matter how many times you submit a rebuttal of any kind. It's not worth it. He's said what he wants to say, and he'll keep on saying it every time you respond. For goodness sake, save your energy bro.

Namkcor this is an argument you cannot win or lose. Irock doesn't argue. He picks a point and sticks to it like glue, no matter how many times you submit a rebuttal of any kind. It's not worth it. He's said what he wants to say, and he'll keep on saying it every time you respond. For goodness sake, save your energy bro.

oh I know, but I get a certain amount of gratification out of the fact that it is ludicrously simple to get him to look like a total jackass.

In any case, you make a valid point and I guess the only real solution is to lock this topic, as there is no real discussion going on at all.

he's just looking for a way to get my attention because I have him blocked on every messenger known to man, over an incident I don't want to discuss with him, and he's butthurt because when he asked me to unignore him, I told him what I told Atemu when I had her ignored, that the block is on -my- terms, and I'll unblock when -I- feel like it.

Namkcor this is an argument you cannot win or lose. Irock doesn't argue. He picks a point and sticks to it like glue, no matter how many times you submit a rebuttal of any kind. It's not worth it. He's said what he wants to say, and he'll keep on saying it every time you respond. For goodness sake, save your energy bro.

I don't argue, I debate. he makes a point, I make a counter point, he makes a counter point, I make a counter point, and so on. If I didn't defend my point then it wouldn't be much of a debate, now would it? If he were to have changed my views on the subject, then I would say so, but he's failed to do so. I debate just like everyone else does.

oh I know, but I get a certain amount of gratification out of the fact that it is ludicrously simple to get him to look like a total jackass.

I'm the jackass? All I've done is defend the accuracy of my opinion. You're the one that's insulted me multiple times during the debate.

he's just looking for a way to get my attention because I have him blocked on every messenger known to man, over an incident I don't want to discuss with him, and he's butthurt because when he asked me to unignore him, I told him what I told Atemu when I had her ignored, that the block is on -my- terms, and I'll unblock when -I- feel like it.

You originally ignored me because you lost an argument. I said 'vagina' and two of your friends left your mafia game, you muted me, people told you to unmute me, I told you why I felt I shouldn't have been muted,(I was never told not to say 'vagina') you listed some rules that you hadn't stated before and obviously just made off the top of your head, you banned me from the channel, and ignored me. I don't like having a feud with someone so, I tried to patch things up, but you've simply acted immature this whole time over something so stupid. Hell, I even tried admitting I was WRONG (even though I wasn't) to patch things up. "I don't like having to contact you on another website, but I don't like having a grudge either. I really can't stay angry at someone for too long, and I don't like others being angry at myself. I didn't mean to make your friends leave the channel, and I didn't mean to make you mad at me. I should have dropped the whole thing, but I didn't. I'd like it if we could be neutral again. =|" You need to realize that I don't care about your mafia game, I don't care that you can't hear me, and I don't care about you even liking me. I just don't like when two people have tension between each other, and they can't patch things up. With that said, me criticizing your game has NOTHING to do with you and I disliking one another. I downloaded the game because it's featured as project of the month, and I criticized the game because I thought you might want to improve it a little. I had to debate my criticism because you basically just shot it down with no questions asked. The smart thing to do would have been to say "your criticism has been noted" rather than begging me to debate.

baww I'm Irock

itt; fag fight

It's not a fag fight

*hits anski with penis*

now it is >:3

Your remote comparison is "total bs." The remote control isn't floating around the screen.

I hate to post in a locked topic because it makes me look like a douchebag (which is true, but it doesn't mean I want to look that way), but I felt I should point out that in a lot of wii games, such as Super Mario Galaxy, there is a floating cursor which makes absolutely no sense and that is likely not visible to the characters. And Super Mario Galaxy is still a great game despite that. Further, save crystals are a pretty common device in RPGs and in any game with controlled saving, the fact that there is a place to save is usually a strong suggestion that it's a good idea to save at that point.

Anyway, I agree with madriel

i'm a little iffy about locking this topic though, as there are a number of viewpoints on the matter. Still, it would seem that everything that can be said has been so I'll leave it to others' discretion.