The RPG Maker Resource Kit
Other Game Creation => Game Creation General Chat => Topic started by: Long Duck Dong on November 13, 2013, 01:15:38 AM
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In my personal experience, I have had mixed feelings with crafting in video games. I like crafting because it makes the game longer. Taking the time to find all the components to craft a certain item can take several hours if you do it correctly.
But then again, some games made it too simple or screwed it up with leveling. Skyrim was great, but you could get to level 20 creating tons of daggers.
So what does everyone think about crafting and how it should work? Or should it not be in games at all?
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I would say it's dependent on the game, and style of play. For my game, it will add a bit of fun to it, and, like you said, add time to the gameplay. However, I'm not letting people level off of it, as it will only give +1 exp point when you craft something. So unless you craft an ungodly amount, you won't gain all too much from it. So yeah, it boils down really into:
1. How do you plan to use it?
and
2. Are you going to allow them to level off of it? If so, how much?
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I agree, Crafting can work for and against a game if it's not used, or implemented well.
Take Don't Starve for example. Right off the bat, it shows you exactly what you need to make things in the game, along with giving out a lot of easy components to make them, but it also gives out handouts of some really good items here and there with dead travelers sometimes. This makes it so you have a trail of items you can slowly make better and better, and some goodies to tide you over while you search for the items to keep going.
If Minecraft didn't have a wiki though, God help you if you don't know what to craft, because that's just a terrible way of doing it. Without telling someone what anything does, it can leave too much to mystery and discourage the player. How on earth was I supposed to know I needed sand and Gunpowder to make TNT? How do I know if TNT even EXISTS in the game? Things like that bother me with a crafting system.
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How I implemented crafting is by making all shops limited (Add only a couple types of weapons, both weapon and material type) and making most of the good weapons obtainable only by creating them. I was thinking of finding a good scripter to create a separate Experience Pool just for Crafting, so you can only level the abilities in Crafting. Of course, If I didn't suck at Math and Science I would totally do it myself.
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Hm, I think it's something you have to look at on a case-by-case basis. I don't mind crafting systems as long as they're clearly explained and can't be used to break the game, i.e. reaching level 20 in Skyrim by spam-crafting Iron Daggers and Leather Bracers.
I had an idea a few years ago for a system that I haven't seen in a game. Basically, instead of finding crafting recipes, you learn how to make a particular style of armor or weapon. You can then choose what materials you want to use to craft that item. The item's attributes are determined both by the materials you use as well as the pattern or schematic.
Of course, there would be some limitations, i.e. you can't make a sword from assorted cloths, but I think it would be fun to mix and match in order to find the best possible combination of materials and patterns for your particular play style.
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Hm, I think it's something you have to look at on a case-by-case basis. I don't mind crafting systems as long as they're clearly explained and can't be used to break the game, i.e. reaching level 20 in Skyrim by spam-crafting Iron Daggers and Leather Bracers.
I had an idea a few years ago for a system that I haven't seen in a game. Basically, instead of finding crafting recipes, you learn how to make a particular style of armor or weapon. You can then choose what materials you want to use to craft that item. The item's attributes are determined both by the materials you use as well as the pattern or schematic.
Of course, there would be some limitations, i.e. you can't make a sword from assorted cloths, but I think it would be fun to mix and match in order to find the best possible combination of materials and patterns for your particular play style.
I was actually thinking of the same thing. I always wanted to make it where the player can further customize the weapon, making it more personal to the player. I was also thinking of a way to improve the blade. You know that in some games gems are used to add elemental powers to a weapon? Well I was thinking that instead of adding elemental power, it would add like +1 to it's attack power, and so forth.
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sure reach level 20 in skyrim by spam crafting daggers, your combat skills will be severely hampered.
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In my experiences with crafting, it's always been neat if executed well. I never really find myself wishing for it to be in the RPGs I play, though. Things like upgrades or sticking with the same weapon for as long as possible was always more important to me.
It all depends on how the game is built, as a few others have said. There can be balancing issues with a crafting system if players decide to farm materials to craft the best material possible - other things like Crafting levels or unlocking recipes through quests or something can aleviate this, though!
Does anyone else think the emphasis on story takes away emphasis from an active crafting system too? Like, not to generalize or anything, but I find a typical JRPG can't pull off robust crafting well.
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Does anyone else think the emphasis on story takes away emphasis from an active crafting system too? Like, not to generalize or anything, but I find a typical JRPG can't pull off robust crafting well.
I think this is what sets Dark Cloud and its sequel apart from many jrpgs of their time, the weapon crafting system was superbly integrated with the storyline, plus watching your kind-of-cool-I-guess sword turn into a Ultimate Death Sword Infinity 3000 was just plain fun. Most games aren't this successful though, and crafting systems for the sake of crafting systems are always cringe-worthy.
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sure reach level 20 in skyrim by spam crafting daggers, your combat skills will be severely hampered.
I guess that would be the catch of leveling by way of smithing. I personally only used it to get those last one or two skills I needed to advance to the next level. For some reason, that feels like the "correct" way to level one's Blacksmithing in Skyrim, at least to me.
Does anyone else think the emphasis on story takes away emphasis from an active crafting system too? Like, not to generalize or anything, but I find a typical JRPG can't pull off robust crafting well.
I've never made that connection personally. I have noticed that crafting in JRPGs isn't nearly as robust as those in WRPGs. I think that's more of a style thing, though.
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I have found that in many games, the crafting systems are either trite and overused, not worth it, or both.
For example: in WOW you go through hell (sometimes literally) to have a one tenth of one percent chance to find a plan for the Ultimate Sword of Monster Annihilation. Let's say you get it and then farm for the next week to get mats. Now you make it and realise that it actually lowers your combat effectiveness.
And again: EVERY game i have played in the last six or seven years or so has had a crafting system. Yes, they CAN be fun. But holy crap, you're playing a hero, not a carpenter.
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One of my favorite things in the professor layton games was the tea making minigame from the second one. It's a crafting system in the basic sense that it involves putting ingredients together to make a new thing, but it doesn't require any sort of planning or resources. The fact that you can reuse the ingredients means you can experiment with different combinations without worrying that you're wasting anything. It's a lot of fun.
I think the most important thing to remember is to be creative.Try to do something that's never been done before, or is rarely done.
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How has no one mentioned the Atelier series yet?
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I think this is what sets Dark Cloud and its sequel apart from many jrpgs of their time, the weapon crafting system was superbly integrated with the storyline, plus watching your kind-of-cool-I-guess sword turn into a Ultimate Death Sword Infinity 3000 was just plain fun. Most games aren't this successful though, and crafting systems for the sake of crafting systems are always cringe-worthy.
Yeah, I generalized too much while also not giving an example - my mistake. But the example in the Dark Cloud games is perfect because I think that better illustrates what I was thinking.
There's a certain satisfaction in Action RPGs because you play the active role in the battle and stuff, so I always found those kind of RPGs kept me more motivated to craft that special weapon I wanted. In a typical turn-based RPG or a strategy game or something, it's just a stats modifier, but when you're fighting in-the-moment with a new sword you crafted from the rare whatever-the-heck-it's-called-zium, it feels more accomplishing!
They do it in the Tales games, if I recall - you can synthesize new weapons and armor as long as you have the materials. So there's my JRPG separation falling apart right there. :P
For example: in WOW you go through hell (sometimes literally) to have a one tenth of one percent chance to find a plan for the Ultimate Sword of Monster Annihilation. Let's say you get it and then farm for the next week to get mats. Now you make it and realise that it actually lowers your combat effectiveness.
And again: EVERY game i have played in the last six or seven years or so has had a crafting system. Yes, they CAN be fun. But holy crap, you're playing a hero, not a carpenter.
That's an active mechanic throughout all of WOW: wasting your time in the funnest way possible. You're on a paid monthly subscription, so they have to suck consumer in with super-rare drops! It's kind of a disgusting model though, I agree.
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They do it in the Tales games, if I recall - you can synthesize new weapons and armor as long as you have the materials. So there's my JRPG separation falling apart right there. :P
The only problem I had in Tale Games was that I acquired better than endgame gear 75% of the game in.
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One of my favorite things in the professor layton games was the tea making minigame from the second one.
Gawd yes what fun that was. Simple and entertaining!
I think the most important thing to remember is to be creative.Try to do something that's never been done before, or is rarely done.
Precisely.
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i will say that while i defend skyrim, crafting sorta killed unique weapons for a few quick reasons.
- Many unique items didn't have an associated crafting perk to double your smithing effectiveness.
- perks in the enchanting tree made most unique armors pointless at level 100 because of two effects.
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I agree with Dave.
If you give the player the ability to craft better items than they'll find through drops, then it makes the drops pointless. If you try to balance this by making the crafted items weaker then anything you find from drops, then that makes crafting meaningless.
So I say, no crafting. Unless you can come up with a way to fix that.
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you fix it by giving unique items situational usefulness and comparable stats to crafted gear of the same teir.
for example dawnbreaker has a unique effect that has a chance to cause chain light damage to undead, an effect you can't enchant while being around as strong as ebony.
basically make them in the same level of base damage but make it so the unique drops have effects that are useful in situations over standard enchantments.
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Or an easier solution would be to lessen good drops. Make it where only bosses and sub-bosses drop any decent items/equipment.
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but that negatively effects players who don't want to craft, which can completely throw off game balance.
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You could just have the mini-bosses and or bosses drop schematics/blue prints for the items.
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basically make them in the same level of base damage but make it so the unique drops have effects that are useful in situations over standard enchantments.
You could take the Fable II approach, where unique weapons often have lower base damage than some more common weapons, but with powerful or interesting enchantments and mechanics that make them more worthwhile. For instance (using Fable II as an example), The Red Dragon had a lower base damage than a Master Clockwork Pistol, but it had such a ridiculously high rate of fire that it was leaps and bounds ahead. Another way to look at it would be a helmet I found for Alistair in DA: Origins. It was only tier 2, but came with a +3 modifier to all of his stats, making it loads better than some of the helmets I found later with a significantly higher armor rating, but no stat modifiers.
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DA often confused me with gear like that. Low tier but awesome stats.
And you should join House Egg in Breakfast wars. I'll give you a field comission immediately!
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you do have to be careful with that as making a unique have significantly more dps can make it all around better.
the term i heard thrown around in TF2 was "Sidegrade" I like the term in this situation.
making uniques have bonuses that don't nessicarily make them significantly statistically better than any other weapon of the same tier while still making them invaluable to certain playstyles or for certain situations, is a good thing.
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Too bad so many games (at least the ones I've played) don't seem to do this. Diablo series was the first I ever saw do so, and every other example I've seen was very poorly executed.
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there's nothing worse in a multiplayer game especially than having only one viable end game weapon.
always the example of what not to do, Runescape, had the Godsword which was what literally every endgamer had forever.
you want a ton of end game gear to accommodate different playstyles, while keeping those gearsets fairly balanced. WoW does this for the most part. but it takes a lot of work