http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/22/lady-gaga-bullying-must-become-illegal/ (http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/22/lady-gaga-bullying-must-become-illegal/)
This would be awesome if this comes through. All of those trashy trolls (that bully) could be punished for it!
Why didn't anyone think of this before?
I sure hope this does come through.
DISCUSS
Trolling will never stop, let's face it, but something should be done about this. This is unacceptable. And you may say "They could just ignore the bullies, and stand up for themselves," but anyone who has ever said that has never been in the situation that boy has been in. It's pretty damn hard to stand up to a brick wall of oppression. I think a law against bullying is too difficult to enforce, since bullying is so widespread and has many different forms, but SOMETHING should be done. I don't know what should be done, but it's not my job to think up things to do. Maybe you can think of something.
That would unconstitutionally abridge freedom of speech and punish non-violent citizens over something they said. Under no circumstances should the government be able to decide what you're not allowed to say. That's just frightening.
There's a very small minority of people who actually are scarred from bullying, and then there's an even smaller minority of people who actually kill themselves over it. Most people just move on or deal with it by either standing up for themselves or finding self-confidence from within. This is coming from someone who was really bullied in middle school.
The government isn't the solution to our problems. Just look at prohibition or the war on drugs.
A person who uses strength or power to harm or intimidate those who are weaker
That is bullying. I think it has to be more than once. And deliberate.
Or wait
repeated attacks on a person (verbal, physical, social or psychological) which cause distress at the time and also cause distress because of the possibility of future attacks.
Yeah.
And true, there is a small amount who do. I was just filled with false hope for that moment. Though many many many are bullied, but it can be easily solved. Yes, War and Drugs are far more damaging than simple child problems as bullying. This topic was created on false hope. :)
WAIT:
Cyberbullying is a criminal offense in my state.
I still think something should be done, but you're absolutely right. The government has enough power as it is. Limiting what we can say is... terrifying.
Quote from: Irock on September 26, 2011, 10:49:58 PM
The government isn't the solution to our problems.
Agreed.
I think school systems need to step in more. I've seen a lot of teachers turn a blind eye to bullying out of favoritism for athletes and the like. It doesn't help that half the teachers at my school were coaches. :|
If anyone got in my way of POUNDIN NERDS I would be so :mad:
teachers need to actually do something about it instead of being cunts who say "we have a strict no bullying policy" and then turn the other way when they see it happening.
I hope you're all not clamoring for them to start handing out suspensions for calling some kid names. That's a gross misuse of authority and resources.
Should physical bullying be punished? Yes. That's assault.
Should making fun of some kid be discouraged? Yes. It's stupid.
Will it stop? No. Kids are brutal, it's not going to change.
Quote from: Strak on September 26, 2011, 10:39:34 PM
And you may say "They could just ignore the bullies, and stand up for themselves," but anyone who has ever said that has never been in the situation that boy has been in. It's pretty damn hard to stand up to a brick wall of oppression.
I was bullied and mocked in highschool.
I got suspended for punching one of them out.
Three day vacation, and they backed off.
So yeah, "man the fuck up and punch them in the teeth" is what I'd tell my kids if I had any.
Quote from: NAMKCOR on September 27, 2011, 03:25:10 AM
I hope you're all not clamoring for them to start handing out suspensions for calling some kid names. That's a gross misuse of authority and resources.
People have killed themselves over constant verbal harassment. I think giving a couple of asshole kids detentions for harassing others is a perfectly reasonable use of authority, especially compared with some of the retarded rules that *are* a waste of authority.
Verbal harassment isn't the only reason. The media likes to make it seem that way, but there are a lot more factors.
You could impose the death penalty on children for bullying, and it would not stop it. It would probably not even slow it down. Kids will be kids. Its as simple as that. The bullies in this situation are not responsible for this boys death as the media is portraying, either. The only one responsible is the boy who killed himself. Don't get me wrong, his death grieves me, and I sincerely feel for him, but lets not make him a martyr and crucify any one who ever called another name. You need to remember that these bullies are children themselves.
I am not condoning bullying by any means. My viewpoint is one close to NAMKOR's. While physical abuse should not be tolerated at all, you can't come down with the full force of the law on a child who is name calling. That is absurdity of the highest kind, and I bothers me that people even take such notions as anything more than the joke that they are.
The only thing one can hope for is that parents instill enough values in their child that they refrain from this behavior. This is not saying that the parents are responsible, or that the government needs to step in and tell parents how to raise their child, but it is the logical best that can be hoped for.
Bullying is a term created by adults, whereas actual bullies most likely don't see what they're doing as bullying. I made fun of people when I was younger, but it doesn't mean I was hateful or anything.
Why is it that almost every time there's an even remote connection to the government in a thread, Irock supports the government fully and takes almost the exact opposite stance of what sounds like the right thing to do? Mind you, banning bullying on a legal level won't really do any good in this situation, there would be too many instances of "debating" whether someone really was bullying someone or not and would STILL have all the same problems that most current school policies have (in that they really don't stop any bullying that's not seen or reported). Still, saying that the government shouldn't do anything and that people who get bullied should man up and whatnot isn't right at all. Cases of bullying have gone up in recent years, as have the number of suicides because of it, and teachers can only do so much when there are over 500 students in their schools.
The government doesn't have to "limit what we can say", but they can help. They can enforce schools to crack down on cases of bullying by looking into funding for better school counseling and better security. In my old schools, if there was ever anyone who got jumped, the students were smart enough to do so in hallways that had no security cameras, and our counselors were pretty unfeeling toward you unless you were black. When you think about it, many schools across the country didn't even have what my schools did; their security is a single security officer if that, and they might have one counselor who would remember your name if you got in trouble often enough for it.
If even a FEW of the bullies I knew back in the day had been even SLIGHTLY reprimanded, the meeker kids would have felt infinitely better. the thing is these kids get bullied all the fucking time and the teachers don't do shit. it's not a matter of "they should punish all bullies all the time" it just needs to be enough to send a signal to those being abused that "hey that shit isn't right and these douchebags deserve to be reprimanded so don't feel so bad about them being assholes"
as it is most of these little shits don't see so much as a lunch detention for verbally assaulting and threatening harm to others.
sure kids will be kids, but when the kids getting picked on never see the assholes get even the slightest slap on the wrist it wears on them.
yes, you should stand up to bullies as a kid, I know I did, but some kids can't do it alone. i'll be fucked if i was going to let them bully the wussy kids without consequence in my grade back then and i'll be damned if i think any differently now.
Bullying and jumping someone are two different things.
Rarely does a child verbally assault another in front of an authority figure. So how do you punish a child for it. If a child is told on? What that is going to lead to is a he-said, she-said situation that doesn't get anywhere. You can't be throwing out detentions to children every time a one kid says he was called a name. Obviously, in some situations where multiple "witnesses" were present, etc. teachers could enforce a little more on it, but short of that, there is nothing that can be done.
I think nearly everyone has been picked on at one point or another through out their lives, and 99.99999% (0.005% degree of error) have not committed suicide. You can't base government policy off of these few isolated incidents. The media loves to go up in arms every time one happens, which makes it seem like a more prevalent problem than it really is. I understand that even one suicide of a child is horrible thing, but lets not try to play mind-control on the other millions of children because of it. Nothing is going to change anything.
no shit they already avoid teachers when bullying. but 9 times out of 10 even if they get caught, fuckall happens to them. i could give you examples but i'm sure every single one of us has seen it first fucking hand.
Quote from: Doctor Swordopolis on September 27, 2011, 03:48:18 AM
Verbal harassment isn't the only reason. The media likes to make it seem that way, but there are a lot more factors.
It's a major factor though, in female cases at least. And it can be the one thing that pushes a person over the edge. I don't know how it is with guys, but girls like to ostracize others just because they can. It makes you feel freaking terrible. You're suddenly labeled an undesirable. Worthless. Hopeless. Ugly. Pathetic. Like you don't belong and you might as well do the world a favor and off yourself now.
That's the kind of shit that needs to be stopped.
You can say bullying parallels happiness in some respects. It's different to certain people, and that's why the American constitution says "life, liberty, and the PURSUIT of happiness." It's like one of my teachers said, "If I give one kid ice cream, he can be three scores of happy. If I give another kid ice cream, he still might want more." Like already stated, it's fairly ambiguous. Someone could break down into tears just because they take a funny look as bullying and then possibly lie to teachers about it to make it seem like more then it really was. Another problem is, the victim could hide what they feel about the bullying and the person causing it can't see how much it's damaging them. The same bully that finds it harmless and would easily back off if they knew it was bad would be put to the same punishment as one that would relentlessly persist. You rarely know how far you can push someone before they can snap.
Quote from: ForeverZero on September 27, 2011, 04:21:22 AM
I think nearly everyone has been picked on at one point or another through out their lives, and 99.99999% (0.005% degree of error) have not committed suicide.
Last I checked, suicide was the 3rd leading cause of death for teenagers. It's a lot more than .0005%.
Don't be absurd by implying that we are in the midst of some epidemic of teenage suicides. Obviously the figures are made up, but they are fairly accurate. Less than 1% of people are killing themselves (teenagers are part of "everybody"), so I fail to see how your post is anything more than absolutely nothing. Please clarify if I am wrong, or if you are actually saying that more than 1% of all teenagers are dying of suicides.
EDIT:
BTW, nice of you to add another 0 to the decimal value from my post to make it even smaller. ;)
Well, now abusing pills has taken a higher rank in deaths then car accidents, both of which are probably higher on the list then suicide for teens , unless they can't drive yet. I've had two kids at my high school commit suicide but one was because this guy got rejected, the other was because this kid got forced by his friends to go with them to smash someone's window. He killed himself because he was going to go to jail and because of life issues. Bullying is bad but there's a lot worse things they could all the same enforce more.
Quote from: ForeverZero on September 27, 2011, 04:49:14 AM
Don't be absurd by implying that we are in the midst of some epidemic of teenage suicides. Obviously the figures are made up, but they are fairly accurate. Less than 1% of people are killing themselves (teenagers are part of "everybody"), so I fail to see how your post is anything more than absolutely nothing. Please clarify if I am wrong, or if you are actually saying that more than 1% of all teenagers are dying of suicides.
EDIT:
BTW, nice of you to add another 0 to the decimal value from my post to make it even smaller. ;)
Stop being an asshat. Less than 1% of kids die with cancer. Does that mean that juvenile cancer isn't a problem? Should we just ignore it?
Just because it hasn't affected you doesn't mean it hasn't affected other people, or that it isn't a problem. Even if a kid doesn't kill themselves, they can still develop severe depression or other psychological problems.
@ForeverZero - I don't have the figures in front of me or anything, but from a single school alone I have heard of 6 suicides due to bullying over the course of one year alone. Now, I don't know about you, but even if there was a school that had no suicides at all, I would want to do anything I can to crack down on bullying. Maybe it won't change very much, but if we do nothing, then it's guaranteed that nothing will change.
It's somewhat of a fallacy to use percents because it's on a scale of 1-100 and were talking about millions. If 50million kids were bullied and 500,000 committed suicide, that's a large amount of kids.
I was typing a big exposition on my thoughts on this whole thing, and my beliefs in general, but I decided that you would all probably think I'm a monster. So I deleted it, and I'll write this instead:
I feel sorry for the boy's family, because their son is dead.
Oh Holk, we already know that you are a monster. In bed.
Quote from: Scalinger2 on September 27, 2011, 05:07:24 AM
It's somewhat of a fallacy to use percents because it's on a scale of 1-100 and were talking about millions. If 50million kids were bullied and 500,000 committed suicide, that's a large amount of kids.
Wow, that was actually well said scalinger. :
o
@Acolyte:
You need to re-read my post that got you started off on a tangent. I never said 99.999% of DEATHS were not suicides. I said 99.999 DO NOT COMMIT SUICIDE. That is a pretty accurate figure. There is an astronomical difference in the two. You are getting all in troll-mode because YOU didn't actually read what I said properly. You took it the wrong way, and now just instead of saying "Oh, my bad, I misread that.", you are hell-bent on "being right", no matter if has anything to do with the original reason or not.
@Zylos:
I am not "for" bullying. I am saying what can anybody realistically do to stop it? I support harsher punishments in school for and increased awareness, but neither of them are problem solvers, they are a drop on a forest fire. If it saves a life, then its worth it, but criminally charging a child for name-calling is ludicrous.
I am not "trolling", nor am I "hell bent on being right". I'm saying suicide is a serious problem, and if you can't see that, then I'm guessing you've never been exposed to it, or contemplated it. You're concerned with making this into an argument. I'm going to stop posting now, because this is completely pointless.
To STOP bullying... very little can be done, honestly. Just like there's little to be done to prevent one person from murdering another. But like committing murder, there are ways to handle the aftermath. There are ways of providing counseling or help groups for meeker students, there are ways for teachers to better keep an eye out in the future if they know that one student has been regularly picked on, there are ways bullies can be punished if there's sufficient accusations against them (ie, multiple people having been picked on, someone having witnesses, etc, etc).
As far as criminally charging... Perhaps, perhaps not. I'll let the courts argue that one, as extreme as it sounds. If one person abuses another to the point of suicide, there has been cases where the first person is charged with murder, and I believe there are several laws out there about cyber-bullying now.
Every harshness has a good and bad side. Look at the Spartans, they killed and weeded out specific infants to become warriors and, with a small group of people, accomplished amazing feats. NASA picks astronauts based on their height because of the physics of the crafts. Any time you weed out based on something you will get better results in what your looking for, at a price. In this case, some learn 'why should I care what they say' while others kill themselves. Imagine if, in boot camps for the military, the drill sergeant was nice to them, would that help train them for the rigors of combat? In this case though bullying can be said for the purpose of being emotionally tougher but some kids commit suicide so there is a cost in this also.
Quote from: Zylos on September 27, 2011, 04:03:27 AM
Why is it that almost every time there's an even remote connection to the government in a thread, Irock supports the government fully and takes almost the exact opposite stance of what sounds like the right thing to do?
But I rarely support the government and I always take the stance of what sounds like the right thing to do.
It's an issue that ought to be dealt with by schools, parents and individuals, not the law. Even if you want to be outrageous and get the government involved, it would make more sense for it to be handled at a state level, just as most laws (such as murder) are.
Bullying is bad, but Lady Gaga is misguiding her effort.
Bullying is a problem, yes. Not the name-calling "haha fag" sort, but the brutal physical abuse, or the sort of utter psychological devastation that it seems little girls are so prone to causing. Something should be done.
I agree to this sentiment.
However, I refuse to agree that the government should be giving stupid little teenagers criminal records because they were stupid little teenagers. Teenagers don't understand consequences, or even think about what could be going wrong or any of that. You'll never get them to, they're too young. Treating stupid kids as criminals because they are stupid kids is not going to solve anything.
Prosecuting kids for bullying is like giving them pills for being hyper in class, it doesn't solve the underlying issues.
There is no way to solve the underlying issue. The underlying issue is that kids are brutal, always have been, always will be. The best thing we can do is try to give age-appropriate punishments, and educate them. Parents and teachers need to stop being passive, and the government needs to stay out.
Quote from: NAMKCOR on September 27, 2011, 04:19:35 PM
There is no way to solve the underlying issue. The underlying issue is that kids are brutal, always have been, always will be. The best thing we can do is try to give age-appropriate punishments, and educate them. Parents and teachers need to stop being passive, and the government needs to stay out.
Well said. My sentiments exactly.
I disagree, but then I'm probably being optimistic. I feel the government should get more involved, but not to the degree that Lady Gaga is suggesting. The government should be involved with positive reinforcement and support rather that with actual punishment or setting "standards of conduct". I mean, getting a criminal record for calling someone a faggot is idiotic; a detention or other suitable school punishment would be best depending on the severity of the actual cases. But it would make perfect sense if there were state laws forcing the schools to try harder to crack down on it, provide a better environment for the students and awareness of everything, etc etc etc.
I think schools can handle that themselves.
punishing people or kids for being kids is not right. whats next some guy goes to jail for 5 years for calling some one a douche? all because he had a bad day and that persopn pissed him off?
That's like saying "Let's not persecute people for sexual harassment, it's just guys being guys!"
Physical and verbal abuse are not okay, no matter what age you are.
Bullying is a part of life.
Its called humanity. We all do it, aware of it or not. It either kills you or makes you stronger. Having been through 13 years of physical and mental torture at the hands of other people, I learned that you either suck it up, fight back or die.
Harsh, but I wouldn't be who I was today without learning to defend myself against this and its made me stronger as a person.
Its sad when people kill themselves, but its not something you can just fix by making it "illegal". That would also be impossible, BTW.
the more you make something not ok, the more people are going to do it
Quote from: Adrien. on December 12, 2011, 02:42:55 AM
the more you make something not ok, the more people are going to do it
Like trolling you?
IRONY!
Quote from: Acolyte on December 12, 2011, 02:16:00 AM
That's like saying "Let's not persecute people for sexual harassment, it's just guys being guys!"
Physical and verbal abuse are not okay, no matter what age you are.
Sexual harassment isn't illegal either, it's just frowned upon in school and work environments.
Which is exactly the same treatment bullying gets.
Neither should be illegal and if you think so, you're retarded. Now if you want to sue the fuck out of someone for doing either, be my guest, but a kid should never go to jail for plain and simple bullying.
When did I ever say they should go to jail? Maybe you're the one with the bad reading comprehension?
Also, sexual harassment is illegal.http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm (http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm)
To address the sexual harassment point.
The difference between bullying and sexual harassment is that sexual harassment is enacted by adults who should know better. Kids don't know jack shit about how their actions affect the world around them, and they will never come to that conclusion at such a young age.
You can't punish someone who doesn't understand the repercussions of their actions to the full extent of the law. That's why murderers sometimes plead insanity.
Quote from: Acolyte on December 12, 2011, 04:41:39 PM
When did I ever say they should go to jail? Maybe you're the one with the bad reading comprehension?
Also, sexual harassment is illegal.http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm (http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm)
In work and school environments.
AND you were disagreeing with a post who only said bullies should not go to jail, had nothing to do with other forms of persecution. So in essence, yes you were condoning jail-time for bullying.
Quote from: Adrien. on December 12, 2011, 01:58:41 AM
punishing people or kids for being kids is not right. whats next some guy goes to jail for 5 years for calling some one a douche? all because he had a bad day and that persopn pissed him off?
He said punishing them was wrong, and then went on a tangent about a guy going to jail.
Punishing them isn't wrong. You think they don't deserve so much as a detention?
I've already stated that kids could even go as far as suing each other. Of course I think they deserve detention, which is what bullies already receive. Your stance is that it should receive the same treatment as sexual harassment, which you've been so kind to point out is in fact illegal. So really you still think bullies should go to jail and we haven't gotten anywhere except you bickering over me pointing out your views.
Unless of course you've just been contradicting yourself the whole time.
The sexual harassment thing was against the "kids will be kids" mentality. And like you said, a lot of people bat a blind eye at bullying. I just think that teachers should be more proactive in this situation. As I said before, I was replying to adrien's implied 'don't punish them at all' mentality. I haven't contradicted myself at all. And yes, this is completely pointless. Can we just write this off as a 'we kinda sorta agree but aren't very good at getting on the same page'?
Yes ma'am
I encourage my kids to go through the established framework of rules when they catch shit from their classmates. It often fails, and when they reach their breaking point I counsel them to follow the method that worked for me: put the fear of the gods into the bully. Just as sure as they are bullies, they are cowards, and all you need to do is...
Quote from: NAMKCOR on September 27, 2011, 03:25:10 AM
..."man the fuck up and punch them in the teeth"
once. It carries its own consequences, but it's better than living in fear. This principle applies to a lot of the institutions we hold dear as free peoples of our countries, the concept that when all else fails we are well within our rights to use force to protect ourselves. Labor unions, political activists, revolutionaries... whatever. In the US, the right to bear arms was included in the original bill of rights for this reason- we have the right to fight back but only when the system fails us, as it sadly often does.
As far as the root causes of this shit go, well, that could be its own thread on bad parenting...
Quote from: EvilM00s on December 13, 2011, 07:31:44 AM
I encourage my kids to go through the established framework of rules when they catch shit from their classmates. It often fails, and when they reach their breaking point I counsel them to follow the method that worked for me: put the fear of the gods into the bully. Just as sure as they are bullies, they are cowards, and all you need to do is...
Quote from: NAMKCOR on September 27, 2011, 03:25:10 AM
..."man the fuck up and punch them in the teeth"
once. It carries its own consequences, but it's better than living in fear. This principle applies to a lot of the institutions we hold dear as free peoples of our countries, the concept that when all else fails we are well within our rights to use force to protect ourselves. Labor unions, political activists, revolutionaries... whatever. In the US, the right to bear arms was included in the original bill of rights for this reason- we have the right to fight back but only when the system fails us, as it sadly often does.
As far as the root causes of this shit go, well, that could be its own thread on bad parenting...
This entire statement is proof you are an awesome dad.
Heh, thank you very much!
Yes, bullies should be punished. By their schools.
Yes, it's bad that they're often ignored.
No, the government shouldn't get involved.