Alright. This is an elitist debate. I'd like to think it belongs here, and not video games. Actually, it probably does belong in video games. But still.
This begins with a story: My dad recently got a ps3. Now my opinion of the ps3 is summed up in this:
-No ps2 support. Boo!
-Well, square enix has left sony, and that's the only reason i ever really used the ps2.
-Anything good is cross-platformed.
-Only good game i can think of for the ps3 that isn't cross-platformed is Little Big Planet
-Any other decent games are relatively generic and forgettable
-And for all of that, it's like, $500 or maybe even more. I might have approved otherwise.
So i ask him, we already have a blu-ray player, and we can probably live without Little Big Planet, and what the fuck these games that you got, and that documentary too, they look like absolute shit(when it comes to entertainment), so WHY?!
And he tells me: Because the graphics are cool.
And then WE get into this gigantic debate about whether cool graphics outweigh gameplay value, and me being me i say FUCK NO because, well, what's the point of a game if it isn't any fun? And during this debate he told me things. Like, "I've actually bought games just because they look good." Yet again, my opinion: What is the point of wasting precious money (in large amounts, by the way. You all know how expensive games are, especially after a new console -_o) on graphics? If you want to see how pretty it all is, can't you go to the EB games and watch it there?
So, what do you think? Does a game's graphics outweigh any terrible gameplay?
Graphics do not equal a good game. Hell, lots of great looking games play like absolute crap. And because of that, they fail.
That's about all I have to say on that subject.
Side subject:
Quote from: KitKatKan .-. on February 12, 2009, 11:00:55 PMwe can probably live without Little Big Planet
BLASPHEMY. Seriously, that is an excellent game. If you have a PS3, you're just hurting yourself for not getting it.
It pretty much all boils down to the person not the game itself when it comes to graphics vs game play debates, because after all a game is only as good as the person wants it to be.
Some people like pretty stuff while others prefer good game play in their games.
If this section were still titled Intelligent Debate, I would move it to Video Games, but I think this topic can fit into Elitist Debate.
Really though, you're on a forum for 2D Game Making Platforms ~ people who actually want to make games that look like they're from the 90s. Graphics aren't going to be a big issue for many, I wouldn't think.
My own opinion is essentially:
Bad graphics can't make a good game worse
Good graphics can't make a bad game better
Good graphics can make a good game better
What are you talking about? Most people in the RPG Maker community judge projects by the mapping.
Why does ff12 suck :mad: cause i didn't think it did.
Quote from: KitKatKan .-. on February 12, 2009, 11:00:55 PM
-No ps2 support. Boo!
do you mean PS1 support?
I thought you could play PS2 on it.
Quote from: KitKatKan .-. on February 12, 2009, 11:00:55 PM
-Well, square enix has left sony, and that's the only reason i ever really used the ps2.
FFXIII is still hitting PS3 .-.
Quote from: KitKatKan .-. on February 12, 2009, 11:00:55 PM
-Anything good is cross-platformed.
just about everything good nowadays is cross-platformed
Quote from: KitKatKan .-. on February 12, 2009, 11:00:55 PM
-Only good game i can think of for the ps3 that isn't cross-platformed is Little Big Planet
Movie Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots
Quote from: KitKatKan .-. on February 12, 2009, 11:00:55 PM
-Any other decent games are relatively generic and forgettable
same for all the systems
Quote from: KitKatKan .-. on February 12, 2009, 11:00:55 PM
-And for all of that, it's like, $500 or maybe even more. I might have approved otherwise.
your dad should have waited, it's gonna drop to $350.
also, I can prove that a PS3 costs less than a full Xbox 360 package.
Quote from: KitKatKan .-. on February 12, 2009, 11:00:55 PM
And he tells me: Because the graphics are cool.
that's a terrible reason to buy a game or a system. I agree wtih you.
Why is there suddenly something wrong with a game being cross platform? Do you just NEED to have an exclusive?
Quote from: Anski on February 13, 2009, 01:07:04 AM
Why is there suddenly something wrong with a game being cross platform? Do you just NEED to have an exclusive?
yeah I don't understand that either.
Quote from: Irock on February 13, 2009, 12:25:33 AM
What are you talking about? Most people in the RPG Maker community judge projects by the mapping.
Yeah, well mapping isn't about graphics so much as it is about arrangement. It has very little to do with how the resources look, it has to do with how they are used and it's technical critique, not so much graphical critique. Technically, yeah, that's graphics, but there's a pretty clear distinction between that and what is being referred to in this topic.
And as far as the cross-platform question goes, I think it does matter when choosing a console. Given a choice between systems A and B, where 10 good games are on both platforms, but A has only 5 exclusive good games while B has 20 exclusive good games, then I would choose B because it has 30 good games while A only has 15.
Well I've got all consoles, and from what I can tell. Most PS3 games are geared towards the hardcore, modern, shoot and kill type gamers. And to those gamers, EVERYTHING is about graphics and framerate. All FPS games feel exactly the same, I haven't played an FPS game that felt unique and absolute fun since Perfect Dark.
I apparently own all the "best" games (except Valkyrie chronicles which i might pick up) in the entire PS3 library, and they consist of Metal gear solid 4, Resistance 2, and LBP. Everything else is multiplatform. PS3 fanboys inflate the quality of these games, and if they were in any other console they would just be "good".
I think sony's game plan was just a big failure, considering they took out the only good things on the new PS3s (I have an old one with PS2 support and 4 USB ports). I don't understand why they couldn't sell both versions of it. Anyways enough about the PS3.
In my opinion, do not ever rate a game based on graphics compared to other consoles.
Instead you should base it on how well the graphics are used in the given hardware. Then have a separate evaluation on gameplay, story, and sound. Graphics are important, presentation is key, but it isn't everything. It could be a great game, but if it has terrible graphics people still won't play it. Why? Because it looks terrible. Animations should be fluid, considering the hardware they're working on. If they have good graphics along with good gameplay, effort is definitely shown. As players, we have to treat gameplay and graphics as equal elements of a good game.
Quote from: MrMoo on February 13, 2009, 02:38:44 AM
I think sony's game plan was just a big failure, considering they took out the only good things on the new PS3s (I have an old one with PS2 support and 4 USB ports). I don't understand why they couldn't sell both versions of it. Anyways enough about the PS3.
wait.
they removed PS2 support?
are they THAT retarded?
Here comes Holk, to set you all straight.
PS3 has PS2 capability, but it depends on which model you bought.
The 80GB plays almost all PS2 games, but the 60GB and 20GB versions have the actual PS2 processor hardware in it. The 40GB is the only one that cannot play PS1 or PS2 games.
Now, as far as exclusives go, it may not seem like a big deal to have no exclusives, but it actually is. When a company chooses to make a system-exclusive, they make the game specifically for that system's hardware, exploiting all of the special things that said system can do. If every game is a cross-platform, that seriously limits what a developer can feature in their game.
So yes, system exclusives are important.
Quote from: Holk on February 13, 2009, 04:14:00 AM
The 40GB is the only one that cannot play PS1 or PS2 games.
Actually the newest 2008, 80G and 160G models cannot play PS2 games on it as well. The also don't have any flash card readers, or SACD support. These models are in current production, and since kitkat got these new ones, she cannot play them. The only old model that did not play ps2/ps1 games were the 40G models from 2007. Which were designed to be the cheaper models.
They "price dropped" again in 2008, which is why they ruined the PS3.
(https://rmrk.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.cosplay.com%2Fphotos%2F19%2F1901107.jpg&hash=2f01ef14b356c791ec65fd3c0afa3755e9396196)
Gameplay > Graphics
I am a sony fanboy, but I do admit that xbox 360 has more quality games than PS3 does right now.
And by the way, you forgot ratchet and clank and gran turismo
No, need for speed is not as good as gran turismo, nor is project gotham
It's like they say, the real beauty is within. Just like in humans, we shouldn't measure everything with external beauty
Same with games, graphics aren't all.
And if you got it and are looking for a good game, try MGS4, Prince Of Persia or Burnout Paradise.
Though 2/3 of those are on the pc ;-;
Consoles and computers can't be compared
Computer's will always win
Let's keep it to consoles
Quote from: codemeister1990 on February 13, 2009, 04:47:42 PM
Consoles and computers can't be compared
Computer's will always win
Let's keep it to consoles
consoles are computers.
The new Prince of Persia is not a good game. It's a good looking game, but it is not a good game.
The game Retro Game Challenges is a good game. It has Atari graphics, and it's a really good game.
Quote from: NAMKCOR on February 13, 2009, 03:35:57 AM
Quote from: MrMoo on February 13, 2009, 02:38:44 AM
I think sony's game plan was just a big failure, considering they took out the only good things on the new PS3s (I have an old one with PS2 support and 4 USB ports). I don't understand why they couldn't sell both versions of it. Anyways enough about the PS3.
wait.
they removed PS2 support?
are they THAT retarded?
Yes, yes they are.
Quote from: MrMoo on February 13, 2009, 02:38:44 AM
Well I've got all consoles, and from what I can tell. Most PS3 games are geared towards the hardcore, modern, shoot and kill type gamers. And to those gamers, EVERYTHING is about graphics and framerate. All FPS games feel exactly the same, I haven't played an FPS game that felt unique and absolute fun since Perfect Dark.
I apparently own all the "best" games (except Valkyrie chronicles which i might pick up) in the entire PS3 library, and they consist of Metal gear solid 4, Resistance 2, and LBP. Everything else is multiplatform. PS3 fanboys inflate the quality of these games, and if they were in any other console they would just be "good".
I think sony's game plan was just a big failure, considering they took out the only good things on the new PS3s (I have an old one with PS2 support and 4 USB ports). I don't understand why they couldn't sell both versions of it. Anyways enough about the PS3.
In my opinion, do not ever rate a game based on graphics compared to other consoles.
Instead you should base it on how well the graphics are used in the given hardware. Then have a separate evaluation on gameplay, story, and sound. Graphics are important, presentation is key, but it isn't everything. It could be a great game, but if it has terrible graphics people still won't play it. Why? Because it looks terrible. Animations should be fluid, considering the hardware they're working on. If they have good graphics along with good gameplay, effort is definitely shown. As players, we have to treat gameplay and graphics as equal elements of a good game.
:3
Quote from: Holk on February 13, 2009, 04:14:00 AM
Here comes Holk, to set you all straight.
PS3 has PS2 capability, but it depends on which model you bought.
The 80GB plays almost all PS2 games, but the 60GB and 20GB versions have the actual PS2 processor hardware in it. The 40GB is the only one that cannot play PS1 or PS2 games.
Now, as far as exclusives go, it may not seem like a big deal to have no exclusives, but it actually is. When a company chooses to make a system-exclusive, they make the game specifically for that system's hardware, exploiting all of the special things that said system can do. If every game is a cross-platform, that seriously limits what a developer can feature in their game.
So yes, system exclusives are important.
HOLK SPEAKS TRUTH. Except for that Ps2 capability thing. That is no longer true, as stated before ;9
Quote from: codemeister1990 on February 13, 2009, 04:47:42 PM
Consoles and computers can't be compared
Computer's will always win
Let's keep it to consoles
Get out > : (
Quote from: NAMKCOR on February 13, 2009, 01:11:21 AM
Quote from: Anski on February 13, 2009, 01:07:04 AM
Why is there suddenly something wrong with a game being cross platform? Do you just NEED to have an exclusive?
yeah I don't understand that either.
Alright, i just meant there is no reason to drop 500 dollars for a system when you can buy some of these games for platforms we already have.
Quote from: Agent on February 13, 2009, 01:08:36 PM
It's like they say, the real beauty is within. Just like in humans, we shouldn't measure everything with external beauty
Same with games, graphics aren't all.
I love you ;__________;
The only reason i really don't like the ps3 is that i only ever play square-enix games for the whole playstation system really, and i'm angry because i can't play KHII or KHI for that matter. I have to go to my friends house to do such things. And now that we have a ps3, I can't do such things. Except for the ps1 capabilities. If that's even included still ;9
I just want my final fantasy goddammit ;__________________________________________________;
EDIT: And i forgot Ratchet and Clank ;9. ;______________________________________________________________________;
Quote from: Holk on February 13, 2009, 06:24:11 PM
The new Prince of Persia is not a good game. It's a good looking game, but it is not a good game.
I find it good but, everyone has their opinions.
Well, I deleted it because it lags and I need a better processor etc so, i'll know better when I get one =3
ilu2=3
Quote from: KitKatKan .-. on February 13, 2009, 11:20:28 PM
Alright, i just meant there is no reason to drop 500 dollars for a system when you can buy some of these games for platforms we already have.
exclusives are generally franchises, which I've found to totally wear out and die after an installment or two, so I don't really consider that much.
and I'd never drop $500 for a system, regardless of what is on it.
I have an Xbox. Not a 360, and I feel it's fine. I've no desire for a better console really, the games are great on the Xbox, and the graphics aren't distracting.
I also have a PS1 sitting up in my room, and although the graphics on that suck by nowadays standards, back then they were almighty. In 10 years time the graphics on a PS3 will be massively outdated.
So basically, my opinion is, a memorable game is not based on graphics, but on story and gameplay. The graphics themselves will become outdated someday, so clearly are not all that important.*
*By my logic, graphics are unimportant because graphics keep improving. A bit of a logic bug there :P
Graphics can only get so and so good though. Once it's insanely detailed and blah blah blah I don't see how they could improve it anymore. So eventually all games will be equal when it comes to graphics :) :) :)
I never said photo-realistic :mad:
Good graphics doesn't mean photo-realistic.
Personally I don't enjoy the current trend in graphics. I'm not after photo-realistic graphics in my games but as it turns out, most people are.
I've recommend several games to my friends lately and most often their first question will be "What are the graphics like?"
These are Halo are WoW fanboys though, so I shouldn't expect their taste to be all that great.
Anyway, Wind Waker is the most pretty game I've ever played :3. I also really like the graphics featured in the Paper Mario series (not so much in PM64).
I liked when good graphics meant higher complexity meshes, sharper textures and nice lighting. Now it's all about BLUR THIS and BLOOM THAT. Go install the newest version of trackmania nations and laugh your ass off at the bloom.
Think of UT2004 (when it came out) as an example of what I'm talking about.
Some things look so real they cease to look real. My dad is obsessed with getting the best TV, the best HD, The best blu-rays...
And like i said before, it looks so real it doesn't.
As my cousin put it, "It shouldn't look more detailed then the person sitting beside you."
Remember when normal mapping was fresh, and every game looked like it was made out of play-doh? I'm glad we got over that phase.
Okay, I don't mean to get all "fanboy-y" but Metal Gear Solid 4 is not just a "good" game. I really am not trying to inflate the value of it, but it is an epic--strangely anti-violence--story about the events that shape us and what we fight for, and it covers everything from bioethics to patriotism. On top of that, its gameplay is extremely open-ended and challenging. I say this mostly because . . . I am obsessed with MGS games. That fact aside, I don't believe I love this game because I love Sony. I'd be the first to petition to get the game on 360(and hell, if they could do it, on Wii).
I own a PS3 because so far only five games have wowed me on the next gen, BioShock, Little Big Planet, Metal Gear Solid, Mass Effect, and Oblivion. With a computer and a Ps3, I can cover all of those. This is the hitch, though. "Any good game will be multi-platform" isn't entirely true, but often correct. It is more likely for a 360 game to also be on PC (windows and all that) than for a PS3 game to be on PC. So, for me (and I stress "for me," because I seem to come off caustic in all forum debates >_<), who's too clumsy to play action shooters and too "immersive" to play many games, a PS3 and my gaming PC suit me fine.
I hope there are no more screaming Sony apologetics out there. I sure haven't heard from them in a while if there are. What seems to be happening now is a new breed of "anti-Sony-apologetics", 360 fans who specifically knock Sony's work.
But hey, where would the world be without conflict? Play an MGS and wonder.
Metal Gear Solid 4 was the best movie I've ever played. But seriously, compared to the other 3, it was my least favorite. There were parts of it that were excellent, though. For example, going back to Shadow Moses was the best part of the game. The way that they relayed the obsolescence theme in a way that paralleled not only Snake and video games in general, but also the player, made for a melancholic and nostalgic section. I'll never forget how seeing the camera rust and fall off the wall made me actively think about who I was when I was playing the first MGS. On the other hand, there were sections of the game that were simply a chore to play through, and when I finally made it to the next plot exposition, I was forced to sit and watch a movie for nearly an hour. That would be unacceptable if it were any other director, in any other franchise.
About the PS3, I don't think it's a bad system. In fact, none of the consoles are bad. People who hold one console above the rest are just feeding the self-immolating hype cycle. If you're really a gamer, then it shouldn't matter what system a game comes on, as long as you have fun playing it.
I'm with ya; Hideo established the game as a "playable movie" once the first Solid game came out, allowing you to play as the credits rolled and displaying the voice actors name beneath each character's name. I might be crazy, but I enjoy every bit of gameplay with the exception of the shadowing chapter in East Europe, and even then only the second time through. And I did enjoy it more than 2 and more than the original Metal Gears, but I suppose this is a deviation from the subject.
I bought A sony 3 because I havent had any problems with any other sony products that I own.
I got scared off off by the whole "red rings of death" and reading numerous claims of people returning them for repairs or the extremely appauling windows vista. to me build quality is everything and it seems that sony took care with ps3 as with all their products (at least the ones that I bought. unlike microsoft which seemingly did a rush job with the 360 just to get it out quickly and make a cheap buck.
as far as I see it, its just like comparing a porsche 911 to a ford mustang gt. both do the same thing. but the porsche is more refined, better built and thus more expensive.
Well, my xbox did do the white ring and red rings of death thing, but after you get over that, it's actually quite a good system :3.
I am happy to report i have finally paid up (for little big planet's sake) and i am very happy with LBP. I'm going for Prince of Persia next.
Overall i am feeling very :3 right now. I don't even mind going to do the papers...
which i should be doing right now, actually :tpg:
Graphics are a huge part of a game but to me the gameplay is one of the most important qualities of a game.
You go back to the old Nintendo 64 games whose graphics are pretty bad compared to games we have today, and they're still great games because the gameplay is simply amazing.
The PS3 in my opinion was a complete failure. The Wii has some good games and motion sensing controllers are great however some games just aren't fit for the Wii.
The new gen consoles have improved on features and graphics but in my opinion the games as well as reliability has gone downhill.
I've had my Gamecube and Xbox for 7 years and they still work perfectly. My Nintendo 64 is 10 years old and there isn't a single thing wrong with it.
My friend's 360 lasted about 6 months.
Quote from: Roph on February 14, 2009, 03:06:17 PM
Now it's all about BLUR THIS and BLOOM THAT.
I hate bloom Makes my screen look dirty.
The other thing to think about is the fact that by increasing the graphics of a game you increase its size. It is rare to find a new game out in shops that isn't going to suck up 5gbs of your hard drive. 1GB is the lowest i think you'll see.
If a game has 5GBs of gameplay(maps,cutscenes,events) thats fine but 5GBs of models and textures is just a stupid waste of space on my hard drive.
...
this is
old
...
so ooooollld ;-;
Oh to be 14 again, when 2 and a half months was a long time :'(
Dammit, Modern, it doesn't matter anymore. It's been like an hour, I'm already over it. Slowbie.
[spoiler]:V
although I am kind of wondering if that's necessary. My :V, I mean.
[/spoiler]
Probably not. :)
its not old if its on the first page :P
Quote from: ahref on August 08, 2009, 06:11:19 PM
Quote from: Roph on February 14, 2009, 03:06:17 PM
Now it's all about BLUR THIS and BLOOM THAT.
I hate bloom Makes my screen look dirty.
The other thing to think about is the fact that by increasing the graphics of a game you increase its size. It is rare to find a new game out in shops that isn't going to suck up 5gbs of your hard drive. 1GB is the lowest i think you'll see.
If a game has 5GBs of gameplay(maps,cutscenes,events) thats fine but 5GBs of models and textures is just a stupid waste of space on my hard drive.
Do you realize how cheap hard drives are?
Quote from: Irock on August 11, 2009, 12:58:07 AM
Quote from: ahref on August 08, 2009, 06:11:19 PM
Quote from: Roph on February 14, 2009, 03:06:17 PM
Now it's all about BLUR THIS and BLOOM THAT.
I hate bloom Makes my screen look dirty.
The other thing to think about is the fact that by increasing the graphics of a game you increase its size. It is rare to find a new game out in shops that isn't going to suck up 5gbs of your hard drive. 1GB is the lowest i think you'll see.
If a game has 5GBs of gameplay(maps,cutscenes,events) thats fine but 5GBs of models and textures is just a stupid waste of space on my hard drive.
Do you realize how cheap hard drives are?
It shouldn't excuse shitty efficiency. I don't mind a game taking up a few gigabytes if it has good reason to, but look at F.E.A.R. 2; that beast comes on 3 DVDs and takes up around FOURTEEN GIGABYTES.
Quote from: Holk on February 13, 2009, 04:14:00 AM
Now, as far as exclusives go, it may not seem like a big deal to have no exclusives, but it actually is. When a company chooses to make a system-exclusive, they make the game specifically for that system's hardware, exploiting all of the special things that said system can do. If every game is a cross-platform, that seriously limits what a developer can feature in their game.
So yes, system exclusives are important.
I agree. There's so many cross-platform games, it makes me wonder if the need for multiple consoles is even necessary. It's all a marketing scam. >_> :V
Quote from: Holk on February 15, 2009, 08:26:16 AM
If you're really a gamer, then it shouldn't matter what system a game comes on, as long as you have fun playing it.
Imo, this is truly iff (not a typo) you are either a die-hard gamer or you just have a hell lot of money; more than you care to have.
I have all 3 consoles, and l used to only play my 360 and leave the others collecting dust. But recently I've brought out my wii for Brawl and Virtual Console, and my PS3 for Uncharted and Little Big Planet.
I can honestly say Uncharted and Little Big Planet are both better than any game on 360, and my favorite game of all time is No More Heroes on the Wii. 360 started off good, but now all of it's exclusives are pretty lackluster.
Graphics can have great importance in how they compliment the gameplay (and on the contrary, hurt the gameplay, in some cases). It's like you can either have a cheap little explosion effect or you can have something big and powerful looking. Which of these is going to engage you more in the fast paced action of the gameplay? Ultimately the gameplay counts most of course, but the other spices and condiments of game development have their place too.
Actually for me personally, it's the atmosphere that's most important. There are many bad games I love soley for their atmosphere (like FFVII: I'm NOT saying it was a bad game by any means, but it did have some technical gameplay problems), yet there are great games that had little impact on me because they gave me no sense of atmosphere (Super Mario Galaxy is a good example of this).
Quote from: Roph on August 11, 2009, 07:54:55 AM
Quote from: Irock on August 11, 2009, 12:58:07 AM
Quote from: ahref on August 08, 2009, 06:11:19 PM
Quote from: Roph on February 14, 2009, 03:06:17 PM
Now it's all about BLUR THIS and BLOOM THAT.
I hate bloom Makes my screen look dirty.
The other thing to think about is the fact that by increasing the graphics of a game you increase its size. It is rare to find a new game out in shops that isn't going to suck up 5gbs of your hard drive. 1GB is the lowest i think you'll see.
If a game has 5GBs of gameplay(maps,cutscenes,events) thats fine but 5GBs of models and textures is just a stupid waste of space on my hard drive.
Do you realize how cheap hard drives are?
It shouldn't excuse shitty efficiency. I don't mind a game taking up a few gigabytes if it has good reason to, but look at F.E.A.R. 2; that beast comes on 3 DVDs and takes up around FOURTEEN GIGABYTES.
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