so there shouldn't be ANY laws enacted in regard to marriage.
Marriage should be up to the individual churches/temples/shrines that are performing the ceremony. One Christian church could say "no" to gay marriage while another one across the street could say "yes".Quoteso there shouldn't be ANY laws enacted in regard to marriage.
I want to marry my dog, legally
I want to marry my 4year old neighbor, legally
works?
at least your not taking the 'born with it/state of mind' stance, because then I'd have to pull out the pedo's
By the way...
Where in the bible does Jesus say that gays are bad? All I've heard of are a few lines by this "Leviticus" guy, but "Leviticus" doesn't sound anything like "Jesus" except for the "us" at the end of their names, so clearly they aren't the same people.
One of the chief arguments against homosexuality that I hear is "because the Bible is against it and the Bible is the word of God", but according to the Trinity belief, Jesus is God, and yet it was Leviticus, not Jesus, who preaches against homosexuality. Where in the Bible does JESUS say being gay is bad? Who is this Leviticus guy and what gives him the right to put anti-gay graffiti in the bible? Is it true that the Bible is just a Jesus-ified version of the Torah?
Not that the Bible gets a say in the anti-gay issue or anything, but I just wanted to know if half of these anti-gay Christians really know what the hell (no pun intended) they're talking about? An anti-gay Catholic friend of mine told me he hasn't read the Bible yet for crying out loud! If you're going to hate a group of people, at least know WHY your comrades justify it!
Catholic marriage, also called matrimony, is an indissoluble bond between a man and a woman, created by human contract and ratified by divine grace. It is one of the seven sacraments. It is ordinarily celebrated in a Nuptial Mass.
neither side would like that solution as people only like solutions that prioritize their own views and discriminate against others, but it's fair.
Well maybe I rushed the stage a little bit when I said there shouldn't, be ANY laws enacted. I think the only kind of laws regarding marriage should be the whole "you can't marry people under 18 unless their parents say you can" law.
Somewhere later on in the New Testament, in one of the letters, one of the apostles talks about homosexual practices. He says practitioners of those practices (along with a BUNCH of other stuff) would send you to hell or something like that.
I'm tired of third party interpretations. That picture doesn't prove anything. I want to see the original pieces of scripture that either damn or accept homosexual unions.
Show me the actual passages.Sorry, had school.
No, one of the epistles talks about adultery and homosexuality. I forget which one, I'll look for it later.
In the meantime, you got Leviticus 20:13. "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
Idk about you, but that seems pretty straight-forward to me.
What if lie means to tell a non-truth?Lol
It doesn't say it's a sin either, it just says they'll be killed, which in and of itself is a sin.Yeah, but God killed people all the time so he'll do what he wants, lol.
my main issue is that when the bible comes up in this type of debate, people love to say that 'god' declared it, or that it's the word of god or something like that. It's neither. It's the opinions and viewpoints of a handful of people in that day and age, written down as a record. You can't say 'god hates gays', but you can easily say 'Leviticus hates gays'Yeah, but Leviticus is a book of the Bible, God's word. >_>
edit: lastly, that's jewish lawLol Idk what to say to that. I ain't a scholar on OT stuff.
and the same section also says eating shellfish and wearing mixed fabrics are sin, and that it's fine to beat the fuck out of your wife and sell your daughter into sexual slavery.
Yeah, but Leviticus is a book of the Bible, God's word. >_>
Lol Idk what to say to that. I ain't a scholar on OT stuff.
[stuff]
End of long, unnecessary, and off-topic post.
if law == true then
if religion == true then
//true
else
//false
end
else
//false
end
But - yeah, MA. XD Such as the "you can't eat some foods" changed by Jesus. And the letters the apostles wrote? They were Jesus' disciples and they were closest to him and heard him teach every time. They knew what was up and gave knowledge that they had gotten through Jesus to other people.
It's like saying to a preacher "Oh wait, you're not God so why should we listen to you?" They know what's up and know the word of God so... yeah. XD
And NAMKCOR, religion is heavily based into many things. Pledge of Allegiance, people get days off from school because Jews have their holidays, money says "In God we trust," etc. Plus, is there evidence that Proposition 8 was made because of religious beliefs? ??? As Edgeworth says, evidence is everything! :D
How dare people be different. How dare they not believe that homosexuality will damn you forever. How dare they give these sinners a basic right. :mad: :mad: If they pass this my child is going to become inexplicably gay! This will destroy society as we know it. How dare the law support any moral views but my own!
The proponents argued for exclusively heterosexual marriage and claimed that failure to reverse a Supreme Court ruling from May 2008 that recognized a right of same-sex couples to marry would damage society, require changes to what was taught in schools about marriage, and threaten the free exercise of religion. The opponents argued that eliminating the rights of any Californian and mandating that one group of people be treated differently from everyone else was unfair and wrong.
Sorry, what would threaten your free exercise of religion? If you're not gay and not trying to marry, then whether this was passed or not, it has absolutely nothing to do with you. If the mormons got their way, we'd be undoing decades of work on equality for women and blacks.
Actually, it's nothing like that. It's like saying to a preacher "Oh wait, you're not god, so that means your words aren't God's words."But it's because of faith we take it that it's God's words through that preacher. You can't really argue about faith considering it's just a part of someone. >_>
http://mormonsfor8.com/?p=154I wanted evidence because I didn't really know, lol. I've been only fighting the religious aspect of this thing. >_>
The Mormons make up the vast majority of the donators to the Prop 8 rallying.
http://www.adventistsfor8.com/Info.aspxEh, if they really read the Bible, they should be more focused on converting these people. Like Halo said, not having a ring on their finger won't stop them from "guzzling seman."
This article just pissed me off. It's mostly outrage that something would ever change. But at the bottom, lo and behold, 4 religious reasons all based on the same church.
Note: I'm not saying the only reason it was instated was religion, but none of the reasons given by anyone are anything besides HOW DARE THEY CHANGE THE DEFINITION OF MARRIAGE TO ALLOW THOSE DIRTY STINKING GAYS TO HAVE FREEDOM, or GAYS ARE GOING TO HELL DAMN THEM ALL NO MARRIAGE.
What bothers me the most about Proposition 8 is not that it's disallowing homosexual marriage, or anything of the like. It's that it was created because of religious beliefs.
Yeah, how dare people let their beliefs influence their actions? Belief and political action ought to be completely separate!
Just because someone believes that killing animals is a horrible evil equivalent to murder doesn't mean they should bother me or try to have it passed into law. It's just their beliefs that are influencing their actions, and really, unless I believe it too, it has no place in law making or politics.
Be honest though, if Prop 8 was about disallowing something mundane, like using endangered species as exhibits in a zoo, and it was based and put forward by a Jewish or other religious group, then you wouldn't care half as much. It's totally because it's disallowing homosexual marriage, and maybe the fact that it was put forward by a religious group is supplementary to that..
But it's because of faith we take it that it's God's words through that preacher. You can't really argue about faith considering it's just a part of someone. >_>
why does it matter so much to you what other people do with their private lives? Why won't you just leave them alone? Why do you want to force them to have to live according to your beliefs?
Separation of Church and State.But the people of the church can be/are citizens of the US. They have their say in the matter. If you wanna go about "separation of church and state," it's the individuals that are having their opinion. If you think that's wrong, maybe we should just have a government where everyone's got to be either agnostic or an atheist. Then we should completely disregard the actions of all past (and current) presidents.
Laws are meant to protect life, rights, and property. Not to enforce a particular moral standard.This is a less serious rebuttal but, property is also often changed with "pursuit of happiness," right? What if having gay people marry affects that pursuit and it disturbs you? :D Plus, you might think you have a right to live in a country where you're not influenced by the existence of gay marriage. It's obvious that most of the country is straight and a good chunk of people should be concerned about this issue. Does this not go against the common good, then?
Regardless of the reason, I would still be ticked that a law was passed due to religion. As stated earlier, laws are universal and therefore shouldn't be colored by any religion or moral set.We have freedom of religion. It's a law passed due to religion. Although it accepts and encourages tolerance, it's still a law passed due to religion. If it wasn't passed, then people would be, like, "HEY! WE WANT FREEDOM OF RELIGION!" Then what would the argument be? "Oh, sorry, we shouldn't mix religion with the government. Even though a majority of you want this law passed, it's too bad." If you say, "It's a democracy and if the majority want it passed, let's let it be a law!" then you should also agree with Proposition 8.
when a preacher quotes something that God actually said (for the sake of argument I'll allow that some direct quotes exist)* then yes, he is speaking God's word. But when he reads sections of the bible that were written entirely by man (direct quotes from God constitute sections written at lest in part by God)*, or gives his homily, he is -not- speaking God's word.
But it's because of faith we take it that it's God's words through that preacher.I also meant that any word the preacher says, it's by faith that we take those words as God's words through the preacher.
Then we might as well legalize using hard narcotics (for the sake of it being your private life, only in your own house, of course), allow child/spouse abuse, allow child molesting, etc. :Dwhy does it matter so much to you what other people do with their private lives? Why won't you just leave them alone? Why do you want to force them to have to live according to your beliefs?
I think that this is the question that really needs to be answered.
But the people of the church can be/are citizens of the US. They have their say in the matter. If you wanna go about "separation of church and state," it's the individuals that are having their opinion. If you think that's wrong, maybe we should just have a government where everyone's got to be either agnostic or an atheist. Then we should completely disregard the actions of all past (and current) presidents.
This is a less serious rebuttal but, property is also often changed with "pursuit of happiness," right? What if having gay people marry affects that pursuit and it disturbs you?
:D Plus, you might think you have a right to live in a country where you're not influenced by the existence of gay marriage. It's obvious that most of the country is straight and a good chunk of people should be concerned about this issue. Does this not go against the common good, then?
We have freedom of religion. It's a law passed due to religion. Although it accepts and encourages tolerance, it's still a law passed due to religion. If it wasn't passed, then people would be, like, "HEY! WE WANT FREEDOM OF RELIGION!" Then what would the argument be? "Oh, sorry, we shouldn't mix religion with the government. Even though a majority of you want this law passed, it's too bad." If you say, "It's a democracy and if the majority want it passed, let's let it be a law!" then you should also agree with Proposition 8.
But it's because of faith we take it that it's God's words through that preacher.
Then we might as well legalize using hard narcotics (for the sake of it being your private life, only in your own house, of course), allow child/spouse abuse, allow child molesting, etc. :D
Yeah, how dare people let their beliefs influence their actions? Belief and political action ought to be completely separate!
Separation of Church and State.
This thread is getting stupid. You can't argue with a religious person because belief is based on faith. Faith means accepting something without proof, so no amount of facts will make them see the light. Anyway, one of you is arguing the legality of the issue while the other is arguing the morality.You guys have a different kind of faith, too. You believe, without reason, that people should be left alone. You were obviously brought up with that kind of attitude or influenced by others to develop this attitude which was done by faith in what other said or did.
:stuff:
It's your belief that we should let them be. :D
Some people would go far enough to call that kind of lifestyle and attitude a religion.