Christian Topic Be warned

Hey I was talking with some fellow believeers and we started talking about hell and if there is another like if hell and the lake of fire is different. Them there is also heaven and purgatory or abraham's bosom. So I was just thinking what you guys thought on this.

I'm muslim so we have different beliefs in hell. I believe hell ISN'T a perminate place for your soul, instead it'a a "hospital" for your soul where it is cleansed of sins before going to heaven.

I'm muslim so we have different beliefs in hell. I believe hell ISN'T a perminate place for your soul, instead it'a a "hospital" for your soul where it is cleansed of sins before going to heaven.

That's interesting, because I am muslim as well and I have a different belief than you. So do most people I know.

really? what do you believe?

Well actually I just got some clarifcation on this issue and to my knowledge, I do believe that eventually all muslims go to heaven.

Well actually I just got some clarifcation on this issue and to my knowledge, I do believe that eventually all muslims go to heaven.

only muslims? I believe (like I said its a healing place) then ALL people go to heaven.

I believe there is no hell, but there is no heaven either.

Well actually I just got some clarifcation on this issue and to my knowledge, I do believe that eventually all muslims go to heaven.

Funny how you had to get clarification for what you believe.

I've always been curious as to how the whole heaven/hell thing works. Do you go straight there after you die, or what?

So far how I belive is there is a heaven and a hell but I am also wondering is the lake of fire the same thing as hell or stronger or abrahams bosom something else as a waiting place

I think there are many hells and many heavens, depending on the person you are...

For example:-

You kill some one by arson:- you go to the Hell of the forever burning
You Tourture people:- Hell of the undying pains
You take your own life:- The Hell of the repeating last day
You kill more than 100 people:- You become a demon or a dark enterty, cappable of possetion

You live a lfe of celabussy:- The hevean of a 1,000,000 Virign's
You respect life and do no wrong:- The becoming of a gardian angle

Why I think this...

Energy does not stop exsisting it changes form, and depending on your energy flow you have a different aura... depending on your negative and possitive flow, you deside your own fait...

Also this idea is in keeping with ancient china and parts of asia... granted I have altered it to suite me and my idea's and my workings of the ocult.

if hevens real its real, but where did the idea of heaven come from?

also if there was the idea that if you kill 100 you get to be a demon...wouldnt that be a push for people to kill

also if there was the idea that if you kill 100 you get to be a demon...wouldnt that be a push for people to kill

Yeah, if you want to join the Djjin's in the alternative world I guess... Think of Spawn the comic... that kind of follows suite...LOL

I don't consider Pure Christian topic's as Intelligent, to void out other religion's in my opinion is closing off your mind and narrowing the debate... I Hope my views and others from different religious backgrounds are still welcome.

also if there was the idea that if you kill 100 you get to be a demon...wouldnt that be a push for people to kill

Yeah, if you want to join the Djjin's in the alternative world I guess... Think of Spawn the comic... that kind of follows suite...LOL

I don't consider Pure Christian topic's as Intelligent, to void out other religion's in my opinion is closing off your mind and narrowing the debate... I Hope my views and others from different religious backgrounds are still welcome.

You don't think that being Christian is intelligent, but you believe that if you kill 100 people, you'll become a demon? I think both ideas are equally insane.

You don't think that being Christian is intelligent, but you believe that if you kill 100 people, you'll become a demon? I think both ideas are equally insane

Did I say that then ?

I said excluding others than Christians is being a little Narrow minded (In a sense)

I mean Muslim's religion has documented before human lived another creature call the Jinn...

Here Wikki Quote:-

Jinn in pre-Islamic Era
For the ancient Semites, jinn were spirits of vanished ancient peoples who acted during the night and disappeared with the first light of dawn; they could make themselves invisible or change shape into animals at will; these spirits were commonly believed to be responsible for diseases and for the manias of some lunatics. Types of jinn include the ghul ("night shade", which can change shape), the sila (which cannot change shape), the afrit [ai'f??t], and "marid" [m?'??d]. From information in The Arabian Nights, marid seem to be the strongest form of jinn, followed by afrit, and then the rest of the jinn.

Arabs believed that the jinn were spirits of fire, although sometimes they associated them with succubi (demons in the forms of beautiful women). The feminine form of jinn is "jinniyah" or "jinneyeh". Jinns can posess people, by entering their body. These posessed people need to be seen by a (maulvi in urdu) an islamic scholar. The scholars read arabic chants and blow on the person affected.

Try studiing other religions... I have...

You can find simular links in most religions, all have demons and so fourth... I like the above, and have adoptted that...

My Religion is my own, it's a mix of all religions... Christianity also... But more from the angle as Jesus being a profit, rather than the son of God...

And I think a Hell for one person could be a hevean for another... depending on how twisted you are... LOL

Think Hellraiser for example, or other Clive Barker stories... Some of those like bloodlines or tourtures Souls could hold some truth...

Again he has looked into religion and the occult... I think Hell, Pergatory, limbo and such like all exist, as does what some may define as hevean, santury or the next life and so fourth...

And what if I am slightly insane... isn't every one ?
(I would say driving at 70mph and above with nothing but an air bag to save your life should you crash is insane, yet I do it almost every day)...LOL

I agree with the very last statement.

You respect life and do no wrong:- The becoming of a gardian angle

Lol, sounds like my upcoming fate.

RE: Hell/Heaven

A few things wrong with that video:

- Saying that religion hurts the world is a pretty bold statement. Instead of this pompous jackass telling people to abandon religion and making it sound like a recovery of some sort, perhaps he should do what should be done, which is live and let live. Religion isn't the problem, its the deeds of men that are.

- Regarding the statement that something is not a fact because there is no evidence is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. I'm not a Mormon, and anyone here that knows me knows that though a bit spiritual, I am not religious. Anyone with a lick of intelligence should know that LACK OF EVIDENCE FOR SOMETHING IS NOT EVIDENCE AGAINST IT.

- I've never hated the word delusional more than I do right now, but like I always say, it is man's ability to be delusional that separates us from animals.

While I agree that organized Religion is mostly based on falsities, this video is just a joke. This guy is a nobody, and his opinions are unfounded.

The video Silver just added shows how many people bron with common sense can view the world...

But most people are not born with choices to choose a faith (if they even want one)... Most are forced... And what you get preached when your young is in kind a type of brainwashing... I feel a little sorry for some people who get drawn into choosing ONE religion...

I just saw the first checklist about Mormons then stopped. They're kind of odd. They believe they can have multiple wives and it's fine. They have a different bible which, when compared to old texts that it was based on, was very different while the bible (regular one) was a lot like the Dead Sea scrolls. It wasn't just coincidence that kids playing in the valley or whatever managed to find those scrolls. I don't believe in coincidences, only coinky-dinks.

Silverline, that video is a joke. I'm not going to repeat Holk.

When he got to Christianity, he said everything was "magical" trying to make it sound like a nursery story. All of those religions believe, god can make anything happen. God made Mary pregnant so Jesus could be born. maybe God whiped out the Jewish cities, maybe he made the angels appear. Religion doesn't need scientific facts to back it up.

And I don't see why we have the same debate over and over.

Mormons then stopped. They're kind of odd. They believe they can have multiple wives and it's fine. They have a different bible which, when compared to old te

I have no idea where everybody gets this; both are false. And The Book Of Mormon and Doctrine&Covenants / Pearl Of Great Price aren't used in replacement of the Bible, the King James bible is used alongside and just as much, if not more often.

Yeah, but they hold the Mormon bible a bit higher than the regular bible. I learned this at church when the pastor was talking about the differences between the different types of protestants. I have no idea where anybody else is getting it from

The debate is more based on is there a Hell...?

Every religion mentions a Hell of a kind... And every one of us knows to a degree what is wrong and what s right... Why do we know of these things unless it had a great purpose... I think there could be more after life... I have no idea what that some thing is...

But if we go by energy, you can have negative and positive, may be we are used for different purposes after death ?

Lawl. I'm sorry but when someome says the BOM is the same as jack the bean stock I cant help but b all omg hhahaha ok sure~

I was raised Mormon, I've had doubts and stopped going to church etc in the past. But about 2 years ago I found for myself what I came to belive. I wasn't living at home so I really got time to just do whatever~ I'm LDS aka:mormon~ I truely believe in it. 

Which means as far as the hell question that I believe there are 3 stages of Heaven and there is a hell~.

Those who arent mormon, go to heaven as far as I believe as well~ Don't have 2 b~

As far as my beliefs go I believe everyone will be judged by God according to their lives here. Thats about it. -shrug-

LOS - killing ppl and becoming a demon who can possess sounds pretty fun X_X.

Also Silver is right about the bible~

Also Silver is right about the bible~

It's funny how people who have religion can see others as being faulse, but not their own.

I think with the same eye you cast on the Bible you should use while reading your own doctorine...

Religion is a good thing to have, but there is having religion then there is devotion to a religion, Both I see very differently... People that go door knocking or preach in the street do their faith's very little good, infact I think these people do the religions damage...

The religion I am looking at the moment that holds great inetrest is Spiritism and the English counter part the Golden Dawn (Watched Sea of Souls on BBC one the other night got me interested)... Here's what I have read:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritism

For a run down of lots of religions:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

Going through each of those listed takes some time, but it is a great read...

I plan one day to construct my own religion from all the bits I find true to me.

o_O What I ment about Silver being right was his comment that we do believe/read the bible.  As far as anyone else. I'm not going to say they are wrong and havent~ ^^ I also say good luck with your ideals ! Also I see why no one uses this forum layout. SO ANONYMOUS and also I cant see the little captions of what was posted before, my brain totally needs refreshment. WHICH is kind of like Religion, you believe / do what fits you. No one can tell you otherwise! ...

If any of these things that religious people beleive in are true, why is there more than one religion?

^  ^ Why are there different flavours of Soda? Because there are what 6.5 billion people in the world. Do you think exactly like your neighbor?

I think what ever religion you are, you can go through the docterine and look at each area, and make true to you or faluse as you see fit... These books of rightiousness can be used in any way seen fit by the reader...

For example... Muslim Extreamists using it to right blowing them-selves to bits... If you read the Koran it says making a self scrafice to protect your faith or fellow Muslim is the greatest act of all... But I don't think when it was written strapping jappty flower and hair bleach as a bomb to your self was in mind...

Its like the Westboro Baptist Church using the bible to oust out gay's and call the Western world pervurse for backing new gay rights and so on...

I am all for people using their faith for good, byt when it comes to harming others... OTHER GODS CREATIONS... How can that be deemed keeping the faith... None of us are better than another...

If there is a devine God/thing I don't think it minds if we do or don't pray to it/him/her... I mean if GOD wanted us to know all about Him/her/it, Surely we would have seen God by now... If God can make all living things why not make a shell for it's self, one that can't be harmed, some thing that looks God like and come and see us...?

If we have been created by a God, that God has either forgotten about us, or doesn't really feel we are worthy of his time... Or at least that's how I see things... I mean we have been praying at him for years, yet on the medically insane can hear him talking back...LOL

Well alot of people like to see things like, say, a cancer receding as an act of god. Say you couldn't find your car keys for a few minutes, which meant you left for work a minute or two late, but you pass by an accident that you would have been in if you'd have left on time, they like to think these are works of their god too.

Of course every last thing is something that could have just happened on it's own anyway, your illness goes or that near death experience was just that, instead of a fatal one, it's never something that really would actually be a definitive miracle.

Though pretty much every theistic religion out there has one of it's main principles being that you're not allowed proof and you simply have to "beleive" and have "faith".

Silver - I have never been to a church through my own wanting... I went to a Church for a school trip, a funeral and a wedding... I have been to both catholic and christian funerals... I have been to a Sinogog again on a school trip.

I see no God in those place, only outcasted gently spoken men in dresses, that look like they either have a train set in their lofts or little kids in their basements...LOL

I remember seeing in the News a Church roof falling in and killing many of his most devoute... Was God short of angles that day, or did he have a day off, heck may be the singing and praying gave him head-ache ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4787706.stm

But then I also remember seeing in the great flood in south America a church withstood the waves, but all other building got crushed...

If you follow the Bible or any other religious book, God Causes all these events, mainly to test us and confuse the shite out of us... One day he is killing his followers the next saving them...

And it's many little things like this that set me to think there is no God that cares and watches over us... If there is a God he has distanced him self, we are like an ant farm, he may watch but not interveen or understand our ways...

The only reason I leave my mind open to there being a God or creator of some sort is there is no proof there is no devince God / creature out there... But the other way around there is no proof there is...

I discredit the Bible in it's intiraty, there is hardly any elements within it's pages I could find any tangable evidence, it's all hear say... Same goes with so many other books...

I wish some one would make a religion based on common sense and free notion... Every one here must feel a reason to continue living, why ?...

There must be some thing we are striving to, why are we here if not to reproduce and create more, like the Nat, it only lives to breed, Why ?...

We are pre-programmed to live reproduce then die... There has to be a reason to keep reproducing... So that leave only one real answer and that's energy... Energy changes forms but does not die, so when we die (death as we know it) what happens to our energy, it changes forms... And may be put to better use, or may be we are food for the next creature on the food chain, and energy based creature. Most creatures are food for another, we could be lower in the food chain than we know.

Who's to say...

But I know one thing for certain, those pages we govern as faith are older than Jimmy Salvels Pants, and I wouldn't trust them any place near me.

I used to be Christian, and went to church for around twelve years. Maybe more, I don't remember. I got my first communion, my confirmation, and then quit. The reason I quit wasn't because something life-changing happened and I swore off the church forever. It was more like a "kid-realizing-there's-no-santa-claus" experience. Now I go on Christmas and Easter, but this is mainly to placate my family. I don't really believe in miracles, but I think sometimes things do seem to coincide and work out for the better, and there's no explanation as to why.

I don't believe heaven or hell are material places you go to when you die, but rather the state of being of your soul after death.

Alright, I'm gonna come in state my opinion and leave.

1. Heaven is real and so is Hell
2. I'm Christian, so I believe the main thing that gets you to Heaven or Hell is wether you accept Christ.
3. Once you are sent somewhere, you stay there.

I'm done.

Alright, I'm gonna come in state my opinion and leave.

1. Heaven is real and so is Hell
2. I'm Christian, so I believe the main thing that gets you to Heaven or Hell is wether you accept Christ.
3. Once you are sent somewhere, you stay there.

I'm done.

I'm not trying to rag on your beliefs, but do you have basis for it, or is it just how you were brought up? Sometimes I think a lot of Christians just don't sit down and think about what they feel, and let the church's teachings become a substitute for actual belief.

I'm muslim so we have different beliefs in hell. I believe hell ISN'T a perminate place for your soul, instead it'a a "hospital" for your soul where it is cleansed of sins before going to heaven.

That's interesting, because I am muslim as well and I have a different belief than you. So do most people I know.

i pretty much believ the same thing but u clence ur sins then go to heaven but if ur a non muslim u stay there

i pretty much believ the same thing but u clence ur sins then go to heaven but if ur a non muslim u stay there

Why...?

I mean why just cuz you state your a devout muslim are you any better than any one else ?

The Musilm Faith came about centries ago, it's lost parts and re-jigged them like any religion, just cuz you have prayed and read a certain book, how does that define if your soul gets cleansed...?

It's tosh... out and out tosh... I mean GOD (weather it's Allah or the Christian God, or any other) is the devine creator, he created all of us... So we are all equal, why would he forsake one creed of person over another ?

Every thing people hold in high regard as their passport to heaven is based on nothing but delussions and readings of prehistoric text, to the point if idioticy...

There is no true way to live your life as doctorine in a book of said Faith... It's a measure granted, but not to be taken to the point of gradure over another race...

Put it simply, if you feel Muslim / Christians etc... as a higher race your no better than a Nazi !!!... Religion causes hate and racisium... End of...

Spoiler for:

RELIGION is Bad...!!!

Give up religion today, with a religion free stick on patch !!!... Beat this brain cancer that turns your brain to crap !!

I am of the opinion that anyone can go to heaven, they don't need to believe necessarily in god, they just need to believe in being a good person. 

I also think it is more difficult to get into hell than heaven, as going to hell would mean you utterly reject the idea that there could ever be a god or that you should be attempt to be a good person. 

It's natural instinct to kill and feed off of weaker creatures (Natrual selection and the food chain)... and by the scale of things we have all killed and eaten many of God's creatures... We are all evil to a degree... Muslim's have holy / blessed meat, but that doesn't make the act right.

I mean do you see any of the worlds other creatures praying to a God ?... Are all animals destined to hell ?...

We are mamals, animals, just slightly more intelligent than primates and dolphin's...

We are nothing special...

Hell and heaven are nice idea's, there are infinate dimenssions for all we know one of those could be heaven or hell and our energy could exsist in either after death... I am not ruling the chance out... But just saying it's far fetched

Guys I am sorry but we are not on topic. We are debating on a Christian debate that is big with Christians. So follow your Ideas up with the bible and not just what you believe with but whether is is more than one hell or not or heaven or not

So follow your Ideas up with the bible and not just what you believe with but whether is is more than one hell or not or heaven or not

That's just plain Christian thinking right there... What you think has nothing to do with if there REALLY is a Heaven or Hell unless you use the bible to show that...LOL

Well if the Bible is the only source of refference we are aloud to draw from, then YES there is a heaven and a hell...

Darn I feel brainwashed !!!

But common sense tells me, the bible is a book of lie's.

I am really sorry cobragamer... Look at it this way, around the time the bible was written they still burned witches at the stake... They typed Crocdiles as dragons, squids as monsters, and the world was flat... Things change, but the bible has not... it's a relic, a relic that people can interp as they see fit... Rather than reading it with an open heart, read it with an open mind.

Common sense should kick in at say Chapter two... and kick in hard !!!...

If it doesn't then Heaven help you...LOL

We have infinate dmenssions with infinate possiblities... Heaven or hell or what we may invisage as either could be one of those dimensions... and who knows what our soul does once we die... But on a biblical level, I don't think we see pearly gates, God or Hell's fires and a half goat like Satan... But then again, I guess there could be, with the infinate dimenssions as pre-mentioned...

I have an open mind.

The Topic Title is Christian Topic Be warned

Back on topic...

Christianity for me and in my eye's failed long ago, and those that cling to it have nothing or very little... All church does in my eyes is gives preist the chance to mess about with kids...

And when you mention heaven and hell in a Christian scheeme of things, the reason's for going to either seem a little wishy washy... for example, being Gay, you go to Hell and burn, yet preist now join people who are Gay in marriage... Errrr... So does the priest Burn...?

And if the priest is wrong and he does God's work, is the Church and God wrong... and the Bible... The Bible states being Gay is wrong, but if it's now deemed right, is the Bible wrong... and if the Bible is wrong then does that mean there is no Hell or Heaven...?

In a Biblical sense I am past caring... And I think many modern day people are too.

Common sense should kick in at say Chapter two... and kick in hard !!!...

Well that's the thing Los, 99% of Christians haven't read the bible, the reason why common sense hasn't kicked in is they don't know what they're worshiping!

It's funny, I know of more Atheist who have read through the bible then Christians. Sad really...

@Cobragamer- Have you read the bible, that book in which you've given your life to..?

I have read loads of religious doctorines... Not all of them and most I skip read... I find religion interesting... But at the same time I draw nothing from it that would rule my life.

You know Hindu's don't see us as any thing greater than a pebble... They see every thing as created by God as equal... I like the Hindu Gods... They have loads, and their theories are fairly interesting and the stories wipe the floor with those in the bible, much more of an interesting read.

But beside that, this topic is seriously floored if what you say is true about many (99%) Christian's not reading the Bible... LOL

I am not christian or any other main faith... some would frown or laugh at my religion as they wouldn't understand...

I believe there is no heaven or hell just one pure state of energy which everyone becomes part of when they die... here there is no suffering or joy just peace...

1.) I am really sorry cobragamer... Look at it this way, around the time the bible was written they still burned witches at the stake... They typed Crocdiles as dragons, squids as monsters, and the world was flat... Things change, but the bible has not... it's a relic, a relic that people can interp as they see fit... Rather than reading it with an open heart, read it with an open mind.
----
2.)And when you mention heaven and hell in a Christian scheeme of things, the reason's for going to either seem a little wishy washy... for example, being Gay, you go to Hell and burn, yet preist now join people who are Gay in marriage... Errrr... So does the priest Burn...?
 And if the priest is wrong and he does God's work, is the Church and God wrong... and the Bible... The Bible states being Gay is wrong, but if it's now deemed right, is the Bible wrong... and if the Bible is wrong then does that mean there is no Hell or Heaven...?

In a Biblical sense I am past caring... And I think many modern day people are too.

1.) The Bible was written WAY before that. :/ The old testament itself was written 1000's of years before that.

2.) The Bible is unchanging. God is unchanging. The only thing changing is our sense of right and wrong. Or what we percieve is okay. A couple of years ago being gay (no offense intended to any who are homo/bi-sexuals on these forums) was embarasing and wasn't something you'd proclaim. You knew it was wrong. Also, if God says something is wrong and we say it's not, it doesn't mean God is wrong, it means WE are wrong.


[/end only post I'm making in this topic]

Wow, that's just sickening!

A couple of years ago being gay (no offense intended to any who are homo/bi-sexuals on these forums) was embarasing and wasn't something you'd proclaim. You knew it was wrong.

Knew  it was wrong..? Who knew it was wrong? If you mean a higher level of open prejudice in the non-gay populace due to ignorance and fear, shamming homosexuals into regression because of the contingent of rejection and actual physical harm if they where to reveal themselves as gay, then yeah, I'd have to agree with you...

You know that homosexuality isn't just a human thing? It's in the animal kingdom too... Perhaps Satan has nothing better to do with his time then influence monkeys and dogs into sin!

Your going to acquire some serious problems if you continue to grip onto your faith with such unwavering, dogmatic views.

Wow, that's just sickening!

A couple of years ago being gay (no offense intended to any who are homo/bi-sexuals on these forums) was embarasing and wasn't something you'd proclaim. You knew it was wrong.

Knew  it was wrong..? Who knew it was wrong? If you mean a higher level of open prejudice in the non-gay populace due to ignorance and fear, shamming homosexuals into regression because of the contingent of rejection and actual physical harm if they where to reveal themselves as gay, then yeah, I'd have to agree with you...

You know that homosexuality isn't just a human thing? It's in the animal kingdom too... Perhaps Satan has nothing better to do with his time then influence monkeys and dogs into sin!

Your going to acquire some serious problems if you continue to grip onto your faith with such unwavering, dogmatic views.

you put that in a nut shell, to be honest, I have nothing against what people are attracted to... These days people tend to care how many friends they have and what they think of them.... popularity is over rated and fake

Common sense should kick in at say Chapter two... and kick in hard !!!...

Well that's the thing Los, 99% of Christians haven't read the bible, the reason why common sense hasn't kicked in is they don't know what they're worshiping!

Is that so DS? Amazing. It's a shame someone hasn't idolized you yet with such divine knowledge. Seriously... how much bullshit can you continue to say without people noticing.

I know nobody in my family has read the bible, book or mormon, or any of the other ones.

And my dad is pretty high up in his church

He probably just does what I used to do, and wing it using the topical guide.

Is that so DS? Amazing. It's a shame someone hasn't idolized you yet with such divine knowledge.

They have, look at my signature.

Seriously... how much bullshit can you continue to say without people noticing.

When I start speaking bullshit, perhaps we'll find out. =o

Maybe you should link to the evidence showing me to be incorrect? Or even better, how about you try adding something to a debate once in awhile? You truly do close to nothing in this section...

I assure you that more then the majority of Christians haven't read through the whole bible, in fact, I feel that 1% is a generous estimate.  I recommend you get off your ass and link some reliable sources to disprove before getting on the "attack DS" train as you so often do. Quite frankly, what the fuck would you know?

Do you even have your own viewpoint, or do you just instantly agree with the side I'm not on? Really that's all I've seen from you, a boy who can't do much more then say "NO UR WRONG" or blindly agree with someone else's point without understanding the situation.   

If you can't handle yourself properly in a debate, then I would assume this isn't the best place for you.

My house mate is a Catholic, and he hasn't read any religious books of any kind... But he still rears up and defends it as truth...

I don't know many people who are hardend Religous nuts...

But when ever I go into town and get approached by the Jesus army it always seems to be ex-drug addicts, Homeless, ex-crimanals etc... that form the ranks of those that found God.

I think these people are more influential, it was no doubt them falling into the wrong crowd that made them as they are before they found God... Just swapping one gang for another.

The other day on my Lunch I put DS's theory to the test... I started making up stuff that isn't in the Bible, I didn't get corrected once, and some of it was just plain stupid...

For example "Chapter 8 verse 8, The Sheep who's fleece was made of Gold, granted Jesus's first and secound deciples emortallity"... And then I went on to say "so do you think they still walk the Earth today ?"... They answered "With out a doubt"... (Or some thing as near as darn it to that)... I said "but the Bible does n't mention their names, who where they ?"... You should have seen their faces...LOL

I think DS is right... May be not to the scale she proclaims (I have no proof, so DS could be correct, and I haven't seen any of the religous Nuts on here respond yet, may be they are reading the bible right now...LOL), but close enough is good enough for me...LOL

Try it, it's great fun...

Maybe you should link to the evidence showing me to be incorrect?

Or even better, how about you say something that actually requires me to give evidence? What you said pointed out that you hadn't even met a Christian, let alone heard of the bible...

I recommend you get off your ass and link some reliable sources to disprove before getting on the "attack DS" train as you so often do. Quite frankly, what the fuck would you know?

Link? You didn't link at all and yet you claimed that 99% of Christians haven't read the bible. Me simply disagreeing does not say straight out my view and so you're not sure of why I disagree (I have told you before though).  If there is a train (which wouldn't surprise me with such a friendly signature) I'm not one of the carriages.

Do you even have your own viewpoint, or do you just instantly agree with the side I'm not on? Really that's all I've seen from you, a boy who can't do much more then say "NO UR WRONG" or blindly agree with someone else's point without understanding the situation.   

I have a viewpoint. And I've noticed you choose to see what you want to see DS, which makes you similar to how you view people that are religious.

And "not understanding the situation" from you means: "disagreeing with me" right? Well, yes. It's not often we actually agree. I don't see anything wrong with that. If you can't handle yourself properly in a debate, then I would assume this isn't the best place for you. This is of course if you mean "handle yourself" as in, "have respect for other peoples opinions".

If you look back this topic was meant to be about Heaven / Hell it was thrown off way before I posted.

I think the only reason it has been thrown off track is we have been told to use the Bible as our only source of reference, yet the Bible has gone under many changes, I mean in the start God was both good and evil...

Satan only really came about in the New Testament...

Hell

God was the person who cast you to hell...

Luke 12:5 records Jesus speaking about God's Judgment "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear, Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath Power to cast into Hell, yea, I say unto you, Fear Him."

and then again in Paul's letter:-

"The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels, In flaming fire taking Vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the Presence of the Lord, and from the Glory of his Power" (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)

Descriptions of Hell found in the Bible are quite vague. The books of Matthew, Mark, and Jude tell of a place of fire, while the books of Luke and Revelation report it as an abyss... So you see my confussion, different passages of text give a very different view.

Some Christian devinations of the Bible just state Hell as being a life without God or isolation like pergatory:-

As opposed to the concept of Purgatory, damnation to Hell is considered final and irreversible. However, the foundation of the Christian faith is that it is the death of Jesus Christ, and acceptance of his love for us, that allows repentant sinners to avoid the torments of Hell and enjoy eternity with God. Various interpretations of the torments of Hell exist, ranging from fiery pits of wailing sinners to lonely isolation from God's presence.

Heaven

Heaven has just as much confussion, it changed many a time in scripture From the 16th to the late 19th century depending on the difference's between the Roman Catholic view, the Orthodox view, the Coptic view, the Jacobite view, the Abyssinian view and Protestant views...

All of these can't be correct...

The Bible as a whole

For those reason's above and I have said time and time again, the Bible has been altered way to much for us to use it to govern or hold close to religious scripture...  And for us to only use Christinaity to say if Heaven or Hell exsists is a little hard, when the Bible is so Vauge ?

(Most of the above I used Wikki quotes and passages, I am not good at putting into words every thing I have read or researched... But I have done the cutting and pasting to show my train of thaught)

ataraxy2 & DS

Both of you are good debator's... you often back up yor claims with hard proof...



33% of the world is Christian...

Many of those live in area's the Bible is not readily avialable:-



So DS's Claim to 1% having read it could be generous as she states... Most people I know use the Bible more as reference rather than a read cover from cover... and many I know disregard much of it... If you look at the above map, 1% is tiny so I can see why ataraxy2 doubts your claim... But at the same time the only people I know to read the full scripture would be priests and those terminally ill, or slightly mental.

I don't see how we can have a Debate on Heaven and Hell based on writtings and passages of Christian faith with it being so Vauge without using our own opinion's and idea's.

Either way both of you stop bitching...LOL

ID is for opinion's and debate, without no opposing side there would be no debate, you both need each other...LOL

What the fuck are you going on about ataraxy..?

Or even better, how about you say something that actually requires me to give evidence? What you said pointed out that you hadn't even met a Christian, let alone heard of the bible...

When I say Christian I'm not referring to the strict priest type, I refer to all who claim to be of that faith, and believe the Christian god to be real, whether they follow the rules or not.

If you wish to proclaim I'm wrong, then I suggest being able to back your statement. You said I was incorrect, show it!

Link? You didn't link at all and yet you claimed that 99% of Christians haven't read the bible.

I'm going by personal experience and knowledge, how many Christians do you know that have read through the Christian bible? I'm not talking about a chapter, or blindly skimming a verse or two at church (if they even go), I'm talking about actually reading it, all of it.

You have two other people showing evidence backing me and my claim, you on the other hand have given nothing to support your version. Put up or shut up, simple.

And I've noticed you choose to see what you want to see DS, which makes you similar to how you view people that are religious.

That my friend is called "projection".

And "not understanding the situation" from you means: "disagreeing with me" right?

Not at all, there are many, many ideas in which me and Los are at complete opposites, yet I still respect him greatly. He has a clue as to the real world, despite us not sharing the same opinion on how it works I still respect him for it. Me not respecting you has nothing to do with you not agreeing with my opinions...

If you can't handle yourself properly in a debate, then I would assume this isn't the best place for you. This is of course if you mean "handle yourself" as in, "have respect for other peoples opinions".

No, by handle yourself, I mean have some clue as to how a debate works.

1) If your going to refute people, show the evidence for it. Your word around here means nothing ataraxy, mine has credit due to past debates. I've earned respect.

2) Don't get personal, which you seem to do in every second post. Instead of personally attacking me with "Seriously... how much bullshit can you continue to say without people noticing" try showing me wrong using real evidence and showings. That was one of the weakest posts I've seen in here.

3) Respect of opinions has nothing to do with debating. Respect of the person does.

4) What we're having right now isn't a debate, it's a pathetic, personal squabble. If you decide to reply to this, it either should be on topic or contain some real evidence to my statement being wrong. If you can't reply without it being personal, then don't, PM me the reply if you must but it stops here. If you want to debate me that's fine, but what your doing is not debating, it's pathetic.   

DS...

I have put a real good post right above yours... Do you have any thing on my post ?

I think the only reason it has been thrown off track is we have been told to use the Bible as our only source of reference, yet the Bible has gone under many changes, I mean in the start God was both good and evil...

Satan only really came about in the New Testament...

I feel your correct, if you only are allowed the dogmatic view of the bible, then there is nothing to debate. If you want a descusion then an open mind about the bible and Christianity should be there. If you feel the bible is truth with no disputing it, then you have nothing to debate as you've made up your mind.

As to the god of the old testament V new. LOL, if you actually read it, yes, they are basically separate entities, which is truly quite fascinating... Did god change his mind half way through..? 

Hell

God was the person who cast you to hell...

Luke 12:5 records Jesus speaking about God's Judgment "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear, Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath Power to cast into Hell, yea, I say unto you, Fear Him."

and then again in Paul's letter:-

"The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels, In flaming fire taking Vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the Presence of the Lord, and from the Glory of his Power" (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)

Again, I agree. According to the bible, and what you can tell using common sense, who sends you to hell is Yahweh itself. It seems a little unfair to me, god sends you to hell despite making you in a certain fashion and knowing you where going there before you where created! Quite frankly I feel Yahweh is directly responsible for a person going to hell, unrightly so.

Descriptions of Hell found in the Bible are quite vague. The books of Matthew, Mark, and Jude tell of a place of fire, while the books of Luke and Revelation report it as an abyss... So you see my confussion, different passages of text give a very different view.

Some Christian devinations of the Bible just state Hell as being a life without God or isolation like pergatory:-

As opposed to the concept of Purgatory, damnation to Hell is considered final and irreversible. However, the foundation of the Christian faith is that it is the death of Jesus Christ, and acceptance of his love for us, that allows repentant sinners to avoid the torments of Hell and enjoy eternity with God. Various interpretations of the torments of Hell exist, ranging from fiery pits of wailing sinners to lonely isolation from God's presence.

I think one of the biggest debates would be the physical hell Vs. the metaphorical hell. My grandfather (heavily Christian and learned) felt that rather then actual punishment and torture, hell would be more of an emotion "burning" as in knowing you've wronged god and yourself etc... Which I always thought would be a more reasonable, logical view. Why would a god physically torture a person when it knew before it created the person that it would sin..?

Heaven

Heaven has just as much confussion, it changed many a time in scripture From the 16th to the late 19th century depending on the difference's between the Roman Catholic view, the Orthodox view, the Coptic view, the Jacobite view, the Abyssinian view and Protestant views...

All of these can't be correct...

The Bible as a whole

For those reason's above and I have said time and time again, the Bible has been altered way to much for us to use it to govern or hold close to religious scripture...  And for us to only use Christinaity to say if Heaven or Hell exsists is a little hard, when the Bible is so Vauge ?

(Most of the above I used Wikki quotes and passages, I am not good at putting into words every thing I have read or researched... But I have done the cutting and pasting to show my train of thaught)

I would again have to agree. I feel that the possibility of a god/afterlife (although minute) is there. What this means however does not infer I think there is a possibility of the Christian version being correct (or Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish etc...). There is no chance that the Christian account is correct, I give the idea that I myself do not exist more plausibility then that of a personal god.

If god exists, it would be an impersonal, non-interfering being, not the petty gods we know of today, or yesterday. 

That like, makes me ashamed of my species

I'm in "other" 

Saucy, even after proving ataraxy wrong, he'll keep attacking you, because by making him look bad you hurt his feelings or something.

I think it's almost time (yet again thanks to ataraxy) to split the topic up into a "ZOMG I RUIN TOPICS: Posted by ataraxy2" thread.

For those reason's above and I have said time and time again, the Bible has been altered way to much for us to use it to govern or hold close to religious scripture...  And for us to only use Christinaity to say if Heaven or Hell exsists is a little hard, when the Bible is so Vauge ?

I've said the same thing several times here, that the Bible has been altered, mostly due to so many translations, but the religious people here refuse to believe that; that every time the Bible is retranslated, it stays 100% true to the version before that, and that the translator doesn't use their own interpretations to write it.

I don't see why we have to have all these variations of one thing.
Why can't we just call it Christianity.
Not Catholic, lutheran, protestant, mormon, and muslim.
They all have one god, they happen in the same area, and we just don't need that many.

She only said the entire bible....read everything before posting, heck read it twice if you have to.

Link? You didn't link at all and yet you claimed that 99% of Christians haven't read the bible. Me simply disagreeing does not say straight out my view and so you're not sure of why I disagree (I have told you before though).  If there is a train (which wouldn't surprise me with such a friendly signature) I'm not one of the carriages.

Why can't we just call it Christianity.
Not Catholic, lutheran, protestant, mormon, and muslim.

Chistianity it's self is at conflict from scripture to scripture defferent people have made it read how they wish it too, due to their back grounds and moral up-bringing...

All of these versions can't be correct... So Christianity has lost track of what's true to the first scripture...

And who's to say Jesus would have wrote it in the same context as his followers...

For example:- If my best mates wrote a book on me or any of you on here did, how much of it would be true me, and how correct will my mind be to your interpritation ?...

That's all the Bible is, it's short stories written by people who followed Jesus about... And keep in mind some of these people used to be blind until Jesus "Cured them"...LOL

Any time soon, you watch the New new Testement (or the New Testement Strikes back) will get released and Jesus will have a Gay mate, and all Gay people in the Bibles eyes will be as natural as thy neighbour...LOL

I don't see why we have to have all these variations of one thing.
Why can't we just call it Christianity.
Not Catholic, lutheran, protestant, mormon, and muslim.
They all have one god, they happen in the same area, and we just don't need that many.

lol maybe if they were the same religion. and first i'd rather try and re-branch the split off's of each religion before even trying to make them combined.

Saucy, even after proving ataraxy wrong, he'll keep attacking you, because by making him look bad you hurt his feelings or something.

I think it's almost time (yet again thanks to ataraxy) to split the topic up into a "ZOMG I RUIN TOPICS: Posted by ataraxy2" thread.

What? I simply disagreed with her. You should learn to get over that thing you started with me.

When I say Christian I'm not referring to the strict priest type, I refer to all who claim to be of that faith, and believe the Christian god to be real, whether they follow the rules or not.

That's what I made the original post thinking you were referring to.

You said you were correct, yet you didn't show it. I'm going by personal experience and knowledge myself, which is pretty much an unreliable thing to say in a debate anyway so me actually saying that a few posts back probably wouldn't change your understanding of where I'm coming from.

How many Christians do you know that have read through the Christian bible? I'm not talking about a chapter, or blindly skimming a verse or two at church (if they even go), I'm talking about actually reading it, all of it.

When I went to Church I knew for sure at least half (if not more) actually had read the bible, some many times - the reason it was around half was because many came off the streets looking for help. And some were just plain gullible.

That my friend is called "projection".

Me not respecting you has nothing to do with you not agreeing with my opinions...

I'm all ears.

Your word around here means nothing ataraxy, mine has credit due to past debates. I've earned respect.

Don't get personal, which you seem to do in every second post. Instead of personally attacking me with "Seriously... how much bullshit can you continue to say without people noticing" try showing me wrong using real evidence and showings. That was one of the weakest posts I've seen in here.

There were many ways I could have worded that post. Yet I chose to word it as poorly as the post I was responding to.

I don't really care how much my word around here means, I'm just speaking my mind on a few things.

And I'm not getting personal. Is that seriously how I'm coming across or have you joined the "attack ataraxy" train, which you seem to always do?

Respect of opinions has nothing to do with debating. Respect of the person does.

Respect of the person does not. Respect of opinions does, that doesn't mean agreeing DS.

What we're having right now isn't a debate, it's a pathetic, personal squabble. If you want to debate me that's fine, but what your doing is not debating, it's pathetic.   

Well it isn't personal squabble. =/

EDIT: I'll reply to you in a moment LOS. School.

It's mid night here in England...

Me Putting my nose in

Spoiler for:

I wish this he said this, she said that, play ground shite would stop... To be honest I don't give a rats arse and I doubt any body esle does on who wins this little tiff... I just hope one of you is BIG enough to to say Sorry and make a peace cuz if you don't this is going to keep happening... And really, if you have got issues PM each other rather than bicker in a decent topic...

Back on topic...

I think I raised some good points just here:-

All of these versions can't be correct... So Christianity has lost track of what's true to the first scripture...

And who's to say Jesus would have wrote it in the same context as his followers...

For example:- If my best mates wrote a book on me or any of you on here did, how much of it would be true me, and how correct will my mind be to your interpritation ?...

That's all the Bible is, it's short stories written by people who followed Jesus about... And keep in mind some of these people used to be blind until Jesus "Cured them"...LOL

Any time soon, you watch the New new Testement (or the New Testement Strikes back) will get released and Jesus will have a Gay mate, and all Gay people in the Bibles eyes will be as natural as thy neighbour...LOL

I really would like to hear back from a Christian... it's not a Sunday... Where have they all gone ??

All of these versions can't be correct... So Christianity has lost track of what's true to the first scripture...

Exactly. Mistranslation can occur with many things, if the bible is as old as it is claimed to be, and with so many languages translations the translators need to actually be 100% accurate. Just one wrong word would change the way Christians believed in things?

That's all the Bible is, it's short stories written by people who followed Jesus about...

It's more than that.

Any time soon, you watch the New new Testement (or the New Testement Strikes back) will get released and Jesus will have a Gay mate, and all Gay people in the Bibles eyes will be as natural as thy neighbour...LOL

That'd actually be quite funny. xD

It's more than that.

Yep, it makes a great door stop.

I really would like to hear back from a Christian... it's not a Sunday... Where have they all gone ??

1.) I am really sorry cobragamer... Look at it this way, around the time the bible was written they still burned witches at the stake... They typed Crocdiles as dragons, squids as monsters, and the world was flat... Things change, but the bible has not... it's a relic, a relic that people can interp as they see fit... Rather than reading it with an open heart, read it with an open mind.
----
2.)And when you mention heaven and hell in a Christian scheeme of things, the reason's for going to either seem a little wishy washy... for example, being Gay, you go to Hell and burn, yet preist now join people who are Gay in marriage... Errrr... So does the priest Burn...?
 And if the priest is wrong and he does God's work, is the Church and God wrong... and the Bible... The Bible states being Gay is wrong, but if it's now deemed right, is the Bible wrong... and if the Bible is wrong then does that mean there is no Hell or Heaven...?

In a Biblical sense I am past caring... And I think many modern day people are too.

1.) The Bible was written WAY before that. :/ The old testament itself was written 1000's of years before that.

2.) The Bible is unchanging. God is unchanging. The only thing changing is our sense of right and wrong. Or what we percieve is okay. A couple of years ago being gay (no offense intended to any who are homo/bi-sexuals on these forums) was embarasing and wasn't something you'd proclaim. You knew it was wrong. Also, if God says something is wrong and we say it's not, it doesn't mean God is wrong, it means WE are wrong.


[/end only post I'm making in this topic]

2.) The Bible is unchanging. God is unchanging. The only thing changing is our sense of right and wrong. Or what we percieve is okay. A couple of years ago being gay (no offense intended to any who are homo/bi-sexuals on these forums) was embarasing and wasn't something you'd proclaim. You knew it was wrong. Also, if God says something is wrong and we say it's not, it doesn't mean God is wrong, it means WE are wrong.


[/end only post I'm making in this topic]

I haven't read the bible beside the first two books and bits and pieces of other parts. But I must say that's a good strong point.

LOL...Tsunokiette

The Bible is unchanging

...WTF... It has more drafts than my local pub !!!... You have Lukes version, the Old testiment, the New testiment... It's like Dragon Ball Z... The Jap version, the Comic Version and then Toonarmi's version, bits taken, bits added (Bad translation)... But the Bible is more fictional than DBZ.

God is unchanging

- Again... WTF... First God was both good and Evil... now the Bible has written in the Devil, God's become a bundle of joy...

And the fact Hell has been written as being a Void, a Pit, A Lake of Sulfer, A burning inferno, pergatory and seclution from God, depending what version you read... Kind of sounds like a bunch of opinions to me, not much better than my own.

Have you even read the Bible ?... If so what version do you thinks correct... and why ?

A couple of years ago being gay was embarasing and wasn't something you'd proclaim

God would have created them Gay... So how wrong/embarasing can it be...? If any should be exceptant it should be the church...

Back on Topic

Hell in a biblical sense has changed from edition to edition... I doubt if there is a Hell like that described in any of these editions... Same goes for heaven... I mean for a start off know-body knows for sure, and the Bibles attempt at descibing them lacks so much... I mean if Jesus was Gods Son, and he did rise from the dead, surely there would be a whole chapter on what his farther said on to him after his exercution ?... But there's hardly any scripture relating to how heaven looks or is... I mean for a book promotting being good and getting into heaen, there's not all that much about heaven written in it.

My opinion
I think we contain good and bad energy (Negative and positive) Hence Aura's and stuff... OK... And when we die, if we are mainly made of a Negative energy may be our soul is pushed away by the positive force, and your soul remains on Earth (Hence sighings of Ghosts)... Until your sould becomes more positive (Exceptant of death) (Like that in the Muslim Faith)... After that then may be you do join the positive stream of energy, in a blinding light of glory that could be called heaven (like that in the Bible and most near death experineces)... But that's just my idea... More conseviable than that in the bible...?

I believe that hell isn't eternal; no one deserves to be suffering forever. I think heaven is more like the purgatory, in that you stay there only for a limited amount of time, until you recognize that you have done wrong and truly regret your actions.
In my opinion, people should live with love and tolerance, instead of being  hardcore followers of a religion. If you live with those two things, then you are following God, even if you don't believe in him. People shouldn't take seriously the bible cause it was written in different times when religion was used for political purposes.

As for what I believe...

There is creation. Somehow, out of the void of space, matter came into existance... And the what, or who, did that is God. God is the creator. The end. I don't believe he has an influence in our everyday life directly. Indirectly, sure. People do all kinds of things in his name, for him, and such.

Somewhere, God continues to create... That's why he exists. He creates, for eternity. An what he creates has enough self-sufficiency to work without direct influence. Otherwise, it dies.


In a nutshell: I am 100% sure that God exists. Maybe he's the God you know, maybe not. I also believe he doesn't have direct control over things that go on. He lets things be. I also believe that he is not done creating, and that we are not his only creations.

That's why he exists. He creates, for eternity.

God creates creatures that die...?

Why...?

He doesn't die... He is eternal as you claim... Why has he chosen to create life knowing it will die ?

Does that in actual fact make God Evil...?

There is no God... No one entity creating every thing... It's common sense... Life creates life, basic Chaos theory, life finds away.

  Ok, don't kill me guys, but I'm Atheist and I just want to put in my two bits as well.

     Yes, I don't agree with religions on many levels, so I do not think that there is a heaven and hell. My thought is that they were ideas made to help people, as in all religions. People believe that if they do good then they go to a rewarding place and if they do bad then they get punished. People will then try to be the best that they can be, even if they know that they are going to die tomorrow. Thus, people are trying to be good and the world is a better place.
     Don't hate me for saying this, but I think that religions were created to keep people going on in life. Religions give people a reason to live on, because even if they are an ex-convict they can still be a part of something and still be rewarded. It helps families get over a lost one and gives people a sense of control over their lives (It's not your fault, god's doing it. You're daughters dying of a terrible disease? You don't have to just sit by and watch, you can pray.) Of course, I don't believe that god/allah/ect exists or that prayer helps in impossible situations, but if it helps other people to get through the day then I don't mind.

God creates creatures that die...?

Why...?

   I think that religions typically agree that their god eventually wants you to join her in heaven, so god makes people die so they can be reunited with her.

    I generally agree with what Shadows and Saucy have been saying. Ataraxy, you give me the slight impression that you are an ignorant christian. Aren't you supposed to accept people and all that? I went to church a little bit when I was little, and that was the impression that I got (I didn't believe in it then, either, but my experience helped me to respect religions.) I guess my "holy book" is the dictionary, because it can be changed and it is an efficient tool for logic.

     Religion - a set of beliefs
     Beliefs -    confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof, to suppose, think
     Opinion - a belief based on grounds insufficient to prove certianty

     There you have it: religion=beliefs=something you have confidence in despite lack of proof. Therefore, religions are opinionated, and everything everyone has said in this thread is correct because it is their opinion, aka your religion. Your religion is your opinion on life. I'm just stating mine.


Also, check out this church:
   http://www.venganza.org/

According to my logic, they are correct as well, because their church is their opinion, and an opinion is never incorrect (except in English class.) Hooray for Pastafarianism.

~~~~~

Oh my, well said, and I'm not just saying that because of the compliment.

Very well put out and I enjoyed reading it, just don't worry about the:

Ok, don't kill me guys---  Don't hate me for saying this

Most, or at least a lot of people in the debate section are Atheist and even if they weren't you shouldn't have to worry about being rejected for not being religious, in any situation. If people want to be fascist and attack you for being an Atheist, the shame is on them not you. 

There is nothing written in the Bible by the hand of God or Jesus... For the Bible to proclaim it's self as the word of God is the biggest crock of shite ever...

I have read a fair amount of the Bible... I would preffer a pop-up book version, it would make the stories suite the target audience better, it's nothing but kids stories strung together.

I remember the Christians used to lynch people for saying the world was round at one stage.

Every time they get proven wrong, the bible's interpretation then changes... You can read the darn book however you like, it's rubbish.

     Religion - a set of beliefs
     Beliefs -    confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof, to suppose, think
     Opinion - a belief based on grounds insufficient to prove certianty

     There you have it: religion=beliefs=something you have confidence in despite lack of proof. Therefore, religions are opinionated, and everything everyone has said in this thread is correct because it is their opinion, aka your religion. Your religion is your opinion on life. I'm just stating mine.


Also, check out this church:
   http://www.venganza.org/

According to my logic, they are correct as well, because their church is their opinion, and an opinion is never incorrect (except in English class.) Hooray for Pastafarianism.

Hmm, I think that your definition for belief is incorrect. A belief is a confidence that a statement is true. Verifiability is not really important. You can believe in gravity as much as you can believe that aliens exist. OED states belief as:

Mental acceptance of a proposition, statement, or fact, as true, on the ground of authority or evidence; assent of the mind to a statement, or to the truth of a fact beyond observation, on the testimony of another, or to a fact or truth on the evidence of consciousness; the mental condition involved in this assent. Constr. of a statement, or (obs.) a speaker; that...; belief in (a thing); persuasion of its existence.

Code: [Select]

assent of the mind to a statement, or to the truth of a fact beyond observation, on the testimony of another

is the one that I commonly defined belief to be

That doesn't really matter though. I think it is illogical to believe "Pastafarianism" is a religion though. It is a mockery of religion (a poor one, but a mockery nonetheless). The only unified opinion in it is disdain for religion, since nobody who holds to it actually believe any of it (and why would anybody? It's like trying to make a bull less fearsome by setting up a kitten as an example of your typical bull). In any case, I am surprised that the atheists of the forum aren't up in arms about you saying that disdain for religion is a religion.

I don't know why I'm posting here, I don't really care anyway. Have fun, play nice boys & girls.

In any case, I am surprised that the atheists of the forum aren't up in arms about you saying that disdain for religion is a religion.

*points to herself, to the quote, and back to herself again.*
          Wait, why am I up in arms?

    I normally like to view a "religion" as a way of life just because that's how I prefer to think of it, but I guess most people will define a religion as a belief in a supernatural being, not just a belief on life (though the two go hand in hand according to many people.) Atheism isn't the hatred of religions, it's the disbelief of religious ideas.

Of course it isn't a hatred for religion. I was just saying that I have found that many atheists dislike aspects of their life being viewed as religion, and would be quick to point out that subscribing to Pastafarianism or propogating it or whatever (not believing in it, but proclaiming to believe it as a political statement attempting to demonstrate religious people are stupid) is not a religious activity. In other words, and in my previous words, disdain for religion is not itself a religion. I was just surprised that no atheists got upset when you suggested that. Since the only actual belief in FlyingSpaghettiMonsterism is an opinion that there is no God and that belief in God is silly, you calling it a religion was saying that this belief: "there is no God and that belief in God is silly" a religious belief.

Most atheists I have met get upset upon the suggestion that that belief constitutes a religious belief. You seem to be an exception. Of course, atheism is not a religion, but if you ever want to make an atheist angry, a general rule is to say atheism is a religion. It's really quite fun actually.

Anyway, that is all I was saying about that. I think it is false to consider Pastafarianism a religion. But I guess that's just a difference between my usage of the term and yours.

(not believing in it, but proclaiming to believe it as a political statement attempting to demonstrate religious people are stupid)

Religious people are far from stupid, they can be misguided, mislead and pretty much misunderstood.

Most people adopt a religion when they have nothing... those who find religion are usually those who have committed the most Sin... I fear the Jesus army, most are ex-drug addicts and criminals... Some ex-mental patients in my local town.

Not saying all religious people fit into this category, just pointing out that the fanatics are the ones doing religion no favours.

These people want salvation so much it kind of scares me... I invited two into my home the other week gave them tea and pretty much physco anaylzed them... The two I came across had more issues than playboy.

Every coin has a flip side.

even though im firmly catholic i dont really belive in heaven i think when you died you slowly stop existing all your sense leave until you just cease to exist

In a universe of infinite possibilities with all it's splendor and clock work like workings I think there has to be more after death.

I just don't think of that afterlife as a biblical one.

Alright, lets see if I can say this correctly.. 
Say you were to go to heaven and it was all happy and fun.
It wouldn't take too much of eternity for you to get bored. Therefor, heaven must get
better and better. Eternal enlightening.
Hell would have to be the opposite, like a line with arrows going opposite directions.
That whole equal and opposite reaction law.
So hell would have to get worse constantly. Darker and darker, more and more pain. Forever.
I believe people start on their end of the line from the time they are born, and it follows them for eternity.
Kind of like in Star Wars where they say "Once you start down the dark path, forever shall it dominate your destiny."

....so...your saying  Christian's are like  jedis...


Also no grave digging.

I believe that in hell, you eternally burn, and you don't die, because you already did

....so...your saying  Christian's are like  jedis...

Lol, if only...
I do like a lot of the qoutes from the StarWars trilogy. (The orrigional)
I actually saw a church handing out pamphlets using StarWars qoutes.
Every other sentance... and they called the force God.
And since movies are involved now, might I bring up The Matrix?
A lot of great stuff in there. They actually take a lot of their ideas not so much
from Christianity as they do anchient Gnostics.

Sumerian's made many clay tablets telling the same stories the Bible does a few Thousand years later... Many of the Bibles stories are taken from other cultures from different era's.  It's nice having all those stories translated and in one place of reference, but essentially it's not the Gospel of Christianity is a bit of a jumble sale of stories.

I have very little time for preachers or door knockers quoting the Bible to me.

I have taken the parts of the Bible I think could have been true and used them to give me a rough picture of who Jesus was, not who he was for sure... nobody ever knows somebody by reading accounts of them from someone Else's perspective... Even if you read an Autobiography it's only the parts of that persons life they choose to write about.

That's all the Bible is...

I do find it fascinating, parts of it that is... I hate the "And He Be Got, him and she Be Got Her and He Be Got Him" Stuff... But other than that it's a Good short story book, well worth a skip read some time.

I was raised Anglican, but I'm now my own. I think of Heaven and Hell in a planar sense. In the center you have a thick forest, with thorns and such. To the left is hell which is an inhospitable arid desert. To the right is heaven, rolling golden fields with a stream of water through the middle. You start at the bottom as a newborn and shift into the appropriate direction each time you make a decision. If you sin, you have to fight your way through difficulties to get back to heavens side. Although if you only sin and/or commit great sin, you fall off the cliffs of hell into the chasm at the edge, forever trapped here on earth with no hope for resurrection and rebirth. At the end you flow through the rivers mentioned in Inferno (Dante Alighieri). Styx to clear your memories, Phlegethon to burn your flesh and bone, and Cocytus to be frozen until you need to be reborn to keep the world going. Also If to many children are called for, their souls aren't human, their space is filled with either a demon or an angel.

Alright, I'm gonna come in state my opinion and leave.

1. Heaven is real and so is Hell
2. I'm Christian, so I believe the main thing that gets you to Heaven or Hell is wether you accept Christ.
3. Once you are sent somewhere, you stay there.

I'm done.

Yes, old reply.  But I am just going to say why I do not agree with you.  Basically, you are saying that whoever does not accept Christ as their savior, is not allowed in Heaven, whether that person is good or bad?  So if this person from a far away land who knows nothing about Christianity, but is a really good person, helps others by will and lives a respectable life, they will still not go to Heaven, unless they say "I accept Christ as my savior"?  Only for ignorance?  Sorry, but no.  And guess what?  That is the main reason why I quit religion.  The belief that only those who know of Christ's existence and accept it as truth will go to Heaven is quite ignorant.  It says that you must exclude anyone who is not Christian.  That whoever does not believe in Christianity is a bad person.  Ask to yourself how many people in the world do not know about God's teachings within Christianity.  So many millions are going to Hell just for ignorance?  No, thank you.

I believe in a GOD, not in a doctrine, aka a religion.  A religion, a set of rules and statements that could easily be a lie.  Do not forget, the Bible was written by humans.  Humans are what?  No where near perfect beings.  None of us are free of sin, none of us have never made a mistake.  The Bible is too old to be accurate, for several simple reasons: first, man is full of mistakes; second, anyone could interpret the Bible differently from their neighbor; third, it has been translated, edited and altered countless times through history, by different people with different interests.  And so on.  Do not believe a book just because you are told to do so.  Find the truth on your own.
The Bible is always nice for a good read, good advice.  But is not to be taken fully literally.  Be careful.

The God I believe in, loves us all, as a father.  He watches over all of us with the same eyes.  My God does not divide his children into groups.  My God gives second chances.  My God forgives.  My God is intelligent, wise, tolerant.  My God knows no hypocrisy.  My God is full of TRUE love.

As for the Heaven/Hell idea,  I don't think there is a "Hell" as we know it.  If we go somewhere after we die, I am hoping that all of us will have a chance to be there, together, in the same place.  Where hell is, in my opinion?  Probably here, on Earth.  We all taste it sometime.  We taste bits of Hell throughout our life.  Hell is different for all of us.  We all lose something.  We all cry, and we all wish we were someone else at some point.  Even if for a second.  We all taste Hell on Earth.

And lastly, saying that you accept Christ is nothing.  It only has any value if you live for those words.  I have met countless people in my life who claim to be Christians, yet they contradict their own supposed beliefs every day by doing exactly what they are told not to do.  Like, ahem... Having sex outside marriage?  So they are Christians and accept Christ within their Christian communities, but they live like non-Christians around the rest of the world.  How Christian is that?  Do they go to Heaven only for saying they accept Christ and going to Church every Sunday?  It's like temporary amnesia, right?

And yes, I am done with my speech.  Laugh if you don't like it. 

That's... a very powerful post.
*Leventhan doesn't laugh.*


I also agree that we don't get to heaven in term of how active we are in church, but on how we act.

@Arwym - I'm going to be blunt. That's a pretty weak reason to leave Christianity. No human being is good. As for people not even hearing the Gospel, that's why we're called to preach to ALL nations. Chances are they've heard of Christianity before, even if it's been misinterpreted.

"they will still not go to Heaven, unless they say "I accept Christ as my savior"?"

Satan can say that and not go to Hell. It's not the words. You can say that all you want, but unless you make a concious decision to follow Christ, then there will be no conversion in that person's life. If you mean Christians who sin a lot, if there's no conviction, chances are they either weren't saved to begin with, or they have become numb to the sin. A Christian can sin. All people sin. Being Christian doesn't change that fact. Now does it mean Christians should sin? Absolutely not, but God knows we're not perfect and He forgives us.

Another thing, they may not have heard the Gospel, but if they call out to God, God will find a way to reveal Himself to them.

I'll tell you another thing, my God the Christian God, "...watches over all of us with the same eyes.  My God does not divide his children into groups.  My God gives second chances.  My God forgives.  My God is intelligent, wise, tolerant.  My God knows no hypocrisy.  My God is full of TRUE love.
"

@Arwym - I'm going to be blunt. That's a pretty weak reason to leave Christianity. No human being is good. As for people not even hearing the Gospel, that's why we're called to preach to ALL nations. Chances are they've heard of Christianity before, even if it's been misinterpreted.

I did not say that was my only reason, Tsunokiette.  I said it was one of them.  I have many others.  And my point is that religion can be blind and intolerant.  I consider myself a believer of God, not an atheist.

I'll tell you another thing, my God the Christian God, "...watches over all of us with the same eyes.  My God does not divide his children into groups.  My God gives second chances.  My God forgives.  My God is intelligent, wise, tolerant.  My God knows no hypocrisy.  My God is full of TRUE love.
"

Yes, that is how God is supposed to be.  Like I described Him. But you see, Christians contradict themselves all the time.  Why?  Because a tolerant God, full of love, who watches over ALL of us, would not criticize homosexuals, witches, people of other religions, and so on.  Yet this people, who claim to represent God on Earth, do the contrary.  Does that make sense to you? 

Satan can say that and not go to Hell. It's not the words. You can say that all you want, but unless you make a concious decision to follow Christ, then there will be no conversion in that person's life. If you mean Christians who sin a lot, if there's no conviction, chances are they either weren't saved to begin with, or they have become numb to the sin. A Christian can sin. All people sin. Being Christian doesn't change that fact. Now does it mean Christians should sin? Absolutely not, but God knows we're not perfect and He forgives us.
Another thing, they may not have heard the Gospel, but if they call out to God, God will find a way to reveal Himself to them.

If you read well, that is exactly what I said.  People insisting in that they are Christians just because that is the image they project.  They say some things, go to Church, supposedly make good actions.  But all lies in the intention, what comes from the heart.  You do not need to officially accept God in order to be a good person.  You do not need to be Christian to deserve Heaven.  My point is that you cannot pretend to be Christian in only some aspects of Christianity and life.  You are either a full Christian, or not a Christian.  Same goes with any other religion.  Most modern Christians or religious people accept only those parts of their doctrine that are convenient to them. 

Like I said, I am either a full Christian, or not a Christian.  Since I cannot accept all the teachings of Christianity, I decided not be in any religion at all, and instead follow my own heart.  I will do what I know is right.  I will be a good person without having to go to a Church, which is, to me, just a formality.  "Good people" are not born from going to temples or from reading sacred books.  They are born from life, and from their own hearts.

Please, do not tell me all of this, because I know it.  I was Catholic for 17 years.  I went to Church, listened, read the Bible, had my first Communion, helped other children to understand God, and even accepted Christ as my savior.  I really tried.  There was a time when I believed blindly in everything I was told.  I have opened my mind.  Religion is not my answer.  I can have a God outside religion.  Religion is not the same as faith.  I have studied the subject, read history, talked to other Christians of different groups.  I know what I am talking about.

Those are my beliefs.  I am not going to convince you of anything.  Believe whatever makes you feel complete and at peace.  That is supposed to be the importance of religion, after all.

Thanks, though.

Religion is stupid. I'll follow my own beliefs, thanks.

I haven't really read the thread but although I accept the possibility of a higher power, I think alternate planes of existence are best left to fantasy novels.

Pocketplane of Air ftw.

AHere watch this:- http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=SfFjKzP3rHg

Er. I didn't read the whole way through the topic. I'm a Christian of no real division. Except the division that thinks dividing the Church was a poor move. But in reply to the first post..

At Soul Survivor this year, Mike Pilavachi (look him up, he's awesome), said something along the lines of, that all the people who've died awaiting to go to Heaven are waiting with Abraham still, for Jesus to come back. When he does they'll be allowed into Heaven. But, here's the thing, they're not really aiting becase time doesn't exist where they are.

Also, Lake of Sulfur, not Lake of Fire, I heard

It might be sacreligious also, but what proof is their that our Christ was in fact our savior, and not our Malefactor. Could hell be our destined heavan, and the weakness The gospels preach our pathway to demise?

..Er, yeah. Sure. Nobody evil would have died to bear our sins for us. I wouldn't call somewhere like Hell a paradise though, which is what is promised to us. Good deeds wouldn't, REALLY, give us a bad name with Heaven's books, eh.

Interesting point of view you've got, though.

In my humble opinion, I believe the popular notion that Hell is a “lake of fire were tortured souls are condemned for eternity to be incorrect. Why? It would be incorrect because it would be unfeasible.

Lucifer, Satan or whatever name you’d like to refer him, was expelled from Heaven because in his arrogance he forgot God’s commandment and sought to become Him. “Sought to become Him” being the key words. Beaten and broken he was cast from Heaven, and thrown to Hell. With him many angels felt and thus this is what we consider the beginning of Hell. But, if Lucifer wished to be God why create a Lake of Fire? It is unfeasible to someone who valued perfection so high to succumb to such Chaotic Evil, that is why I believed that the True Hell is far more scarier than a simple Lake of Fire, Hell is a twisted image of Heaven, equal in every aspect, except that it exhales an unsettling feeling, that people are chained there to never return, and live in a twisted eternity never knowing the true heaven. That is my opinion about Hell, not something as graphic as the Lake but as a twisted reflection of Heaven were in the Throne sits not God, but Lucifer.

I don't really believe in "hell" per se, but if there was one, it wouldn't be fire and brimstone and pain. These are physical things, and after losing our bodies, the physical realm is no longer our burden to hold.

But our spiritual bodies could contain feelings like that except since we're already dead, we just get tortured.

I don't really believe in "hell" per se, but if there was one, it wouldn't be fire and brimstone and pain. These are physical things, and after losing our bodies, the physical realm is no longer our burden to hold.

Agreed. If such a "hell" even exists (and that's undoubtedly where I'm going since I listen to technical death metal and read Harry Potter) the pain we hypothetically experience there is much more likely to be spiritual rather than physical. The Bible depicts hell as "fire and brimstone" and implies that it's one giant place where all souls are gathered in eternal torment, but I tend to imagine it as merely "the absence of God/Allah/Adonai/Jehovah/whoever." It is my belief you don't get sent to hell by listening to heavy metal and Celtic music, reading fictional books about witchcraft, and/or participating in Halloween; rather you get sent to your own individual hell by spiritually distancing yourself from God.

I'm an atheist, but I do maintain an interest in modern religion, not participating in it but rather studying it.

The bible doesn't generally depict hell as fire and brimstone - some preachers and/or religions do. The bible's references to Hell (primarily considering New Testament) are usually just of exclusion. Like there is a feast, and then people are thrown outside "where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth". The chief punishment is eternal separation from God, and the anguish the soul is supposed to experience is metaphorically represented by burning. From what I understand, that is the Catholic teaching on Hell at least. I don't know about other Christian religions or Judaism.

I stand corrected. I've had time to look through my old Revised Standard bible more closely, and it does indeed describe it as such.

Regardless, there would be no "weeping" or "gnashing of teeth" because when you're dead you have no eyes to weep from nor teeth to gnash.

I did a little research on this topic, and I'm not going to quote the KJV Bible word for word, but according to it, When people die, people do not directly go to heaven or hell. In fact, they sleep in a restful slumber, until the Rapture. The Rapture being the 7 years of tribulation which mark the end of the world. Then once they arise from there slumber, God will then pass judgment, and show each human being there entire life. Then Judgment will be passed, and the gates will be opened.


Thats as much as I got. I dont have any real opinions on this atm. Im still not 100% on what I believe.