A plea to the 'intelligent" half of America RE: Homosexuality and Christianity

I know I'm Canadian, but we're a little more tolerant in general up here, so bear with me.

Threads about religion don't usually end well, but it seems that much of RMRK shares my opinions on the things I am about to say. This thread isn't so much about religion itself as it is about religion's misuse. I do not intend to insult or offend anyone, so keep that in mind when reading the following.

I think that a spiritual belief in some greater power is just fine - if it comforts one to believe in a divine power as explanation for the mysteries in the universe, there's nothing wrong with that. But several characters - predominately in the United States of America - have received high media coverage because of their campaign against certain minorities. These bigots and fanatics claim that homosexuals and atheists are, for reasons I find completely illogical, malicious.

The old saying "Empty vessels make the most noise" holds true in this case. It's always the idiots who demand the most attention and shoot their mouths off without thinking about anything they say. The face of Christianity as portrayed by the mass media is an ugly one today.

I've always found it incredibly amusing to read articles written by American nationalists about how certain people in third-world countries use religion as a weapon to spread hate and silence all those who oppose them, completely oblivious to the fact that they do precisely the same thing in the States. Take for example the landlord who rented out a billboard on his building, allowing it to be used to carry the name of an atheist social group. He received death threats from Christians in the area and was forced to tear it down. Take the Christians who are pushing for the implementation of creationist theory in science classes, and those who try to get books written by atheists banned. Take the Americans who spread hate-motivated lies about homosexuals in order to alienate them from the rest of society. They demand a right to propagate their hate because they have a right to free speech, while simultaneously moving to take away the freedom of expression of the groups who oppose them.

The United States is supposed to be a free country.

Tell yourself something for long enough, and you'll come to believe it. If a man hates homosexuals but does not want to think of himself as a bigot, he's likely to hide behind his faith. The radical bible-thumpers who quote obscure passages from a book written over a thousand years ago to justify their hate would never admit that the fact that they hate homosexuals stems from a lack of understanding, and really has nothing to do with their bible.

I've met many Christians who understand that people are people - and they've come to earn my respect. I don't dislike all Christians.

Whether you're Christian or not, if you truly believe in freedom, then stand by the LGBT community as they fight to protect their rights. Speak out against the bigots and the fools. Fight to pass laws that prohibit hate propaganda in the media, and do all you can to promote mutual tolerance and understanding among all people. You are the only ones with the power to make a difference. Inaction isn't right. The injustice that exists in the system today is causing a lot of suffering, and if you see it, you've got a responsibility to try and stop it.

Do your part to enlighten the people of your country and make it the true land of the free.

Fight to pass laws that prohibit hate propaganda in the media

This would be in violation of freedom of the press.

Everyone, including the press, is entitled to freedom of speech. The only fair way to fight it is by using your own freedom of speech, not by unfairly censoring them.

I don't know about those other people, but me myself, and other Christian's I know want creation to be taught on equal ground with evolution as an alternative theory.

As for gay marriage, we want there to be something available because this is America, but we don't want to have churches forced to accept homosexuality as a norm, especially when the Bible teaches that it's a sin.

I don't really think creation should be taught in science classrooms, nor should it be considered an equal 'theory.'

http://www.notjustatheory.com/

I don't really think creation should be taught in science classrooms, nor should it be considered an equal 'theory.'

http://www.notjustatheory.com/

I agree with Chewey. There isn't much behind Creationism, and it doesn't tie into science as much as evolution does.

Firerain I hope enough people in America feel as you do, or I may be defecting some day.

As for gay marriage, we want there to be something available because this is America, but we don't want to have churches forced to accept homosexuality as a norm, especially when the Bible teaches that it's a sin.

That is exactly how I feel.

I don't really think creation should be taught in science classrooms, nor should it be considered an equal 'theory.'

http://www.notjustatheory.com/

I agree with Chewey. There isn't much behind Creationism, and it doesn't tie into science as much as evolution does.

That's not even why it shouldn't be taught.
Separation of Church and State is why.
If it's a public school, it's state funded, and therefore should -not- teach religious anything.  That's what Sunday School is for, don't kids learn it enough there?

Agreeing with every one of you. And about teaching creation and evolution in school, that's common practice in europe except creation isn't taught in science class, it's taught in religion class. It's a system that works fine and helps educating young people about the bible. Most turn atheist, but that's beside the point. Even atheists should study religion to get a deeper understanding of it.

As for gay marriage, we want there to be something available because this is America, but we don't want to have churches forced to accept homosexuality as a norm, especially when the Bible teaches that it's a sin.

Sweden legalized gay marriage, many clergymen were strictly against it and said they'd leave if it was legalized. Eventually it was, they didn't leave, everyone is happy and people come there to get married now. What's so wrong with that ._. It just makes others happy and it doesn't really affect you. I wish more states in the US would legalize it and set an example for bigger european countries like France and Germany.

That's not even why it shouldn't be taught.
Separation of Church and State is why.
If it's a public school, it's state funded, and therefore should -not- teach religious anything.  That's what Sunday School is for, don't kids learn it enough there?

No, it's perfectly fine to teach Creation in other classes - like religious eduction (theology). You don't have to teach it as fact, just teach what it is. I wish my high school had a theology class, personally, because I find it all very interesting. The Australian government recently hired several Atheists to teach Theology, and from what I've heard it's been very successful.

We don't have Theology classes in public school, specifically because of the separation of Church and State, at least in my area.

If it was taught in a proper class about religion in general (and that means not just cavorting about preaching the bible and Catholicism and only Catholicism, but actually getting into many other belief systems as well to provide a broad education related to the subject of Religion as a whole) then yes, I'd agree it should be taught there.

That's the curriculum that's set out here, and I think that's why they hired atheists to experiment with it. They didn't want any preference given to any one religion. It'd be an interesting subject, in my opinion  .

Teaching theology in schools isn't exactly opposing the separation of church and state. It's not as if teaching = preaching.

People think kids get converted to another religion if they're taught facts about it at least that's what people opposing the idea says.

Just like how being raised by homosexuals makes you gay

Actually the thing about state funded things is that they should be voted on since they'refunded by tax payers' money.
However, I think people should be left to believe what they want, when it comes to things we're not really going to figure out any time soon, like the meaning of life and creation.
Chances are, my kids are going to a private school, but that doesn't mean I can't have a say in my kids' education, which is clearly the problem these days. Parents need to be more proactive in what they want their kids to learn, but not offensive: it's entirely your right to not want your child to learn about Creationism, but if someone else wants their child to, you shouldn't take that away.
Suffice to say, science is science...not theology. I do agree with Chewey, teaching theology would be interesting and probably beneficial, since it'd give children an open mind to religion at an early age.

I am entirely impartial to religion; I don't mind going to church with my grandparents if they want me to, but I don't really care about it one way or another. For one, I agree with what you say about using Religion as justification for discrimination, it's wrong and shouldn't be done.
However, I my self don't really want to support any group (that is not to say I don't support gay marriage) that will act on an irrational feeling, such as vandalizing property because you didn't get your way. If you want your cause to be taken seriously and widely accepted, you have to be serious, mature and cautious about the way you go through with it/present it to people who are afraid of it.
Like Skanker said about Switzerland, it was legalized and nothing happened to the opposition groups, but it sure did make a lot more people happy. That's good, and being the United States of America, that should be our goal by way of freedom.

America is young as hell - we don't know shit yet. Which sucks because apparently our leaders are slow ass fucking learners

Just legalize gay marriage already;it hurts literally -no one-

The problem about the United States ever since such issues arose is that it takes a very very long time, or at least a good amount of it, for freedom for a group to come in to realization, even though our country prides so much on it. History has shown time and time again how long it take to obtain freedom for a group, and I don't foresee this issue being solved anytime very soon, but who knows :O

I really don't have much more to say about this topic since I'd probably miss telling my point and/or offend somebody, so all I'm going to say is that I do support gay marriage because:

A] Morals are not set in stone. What may seem wrong to group A is perfectly okay to group B, it's just like opinions but more glorified.

B] From my personal beliefs of the bible [Yes, I'm christian even though I love men as well as women] is that not to have hatred against other people. Hatred and personal disgust is a sin in my eyes and Christians who put hate on these groups of people... Do they truly have Jesus in their heart? Just because you find it wrong doesn't mean you should hurt another god created being because of it.

C] The world is already pretty bad and everyday living is already stressful enough, why make it worse?

EDIT: A question might arise where someone wonders "How can you be Christian yet love men?" Well, I personally believe the teachings of God should be interpreted for yourself, but if I just happen to end up in Hell, assuming there is one [Wow, I'm just a contradictory Christian, am I not?] then so be it, I'll accept my punishment.

Fight to pass laws that prohibit hate propaganda in the media

This would be in violation of freedom of the press.

Everyone, including the press, is entitled to freedom of speech. The only fair way to fight it is by using your own freedom of speech, not by unfairly censoring them.

But the question is, is it really? You're merely looking at the words "freedom of speech" and "freedom of the press", but I've met quite a fair number of lawyers who can successfully argue cases where your freedom doesn't apply. You're not a law expert, so you can't just hide behind saying freedom of speech without doing any research. An extreme example is the old "shouting fire in a crowded theater" argument, in which case you would be arrested for inciting panic and danger and can't just claim to have freedom of speech. I'm no law expert either, but here's something brought up in my law class: what would you think of someone setting up a giant billboard in a crowded intersection that says "I hate niggers!" in a place filled with a mostly black community, that would purposefully cause disturbances and fights to break out? Freedom of speech is not as completely unlimited as it sounds, and it is the crux of many debates right now.

In my personal opinion, hate propaganda in public media targetted for all audiences does nothing more than piss people off, cause arguments about the equality of what's being published, and possibly incite supporters to commit hate crime.

Well, in Canada, any state action that violates the Charter can be saved by s. 1 if it is a "reasonable limit prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society." Legislation of the type you are speaking likely would be saved by it, at least in Canada. And there is tons of legislation like that in the US as well.

However, I don't think it's the correct course of action - freedom of expression, to me, is tantamount to autonomy. To suppress it in any way is to enforce conformity with the state. The fact is, it can never be successful - it can never change hatred or even how it spreads very much; all it will change is how they act it out. Instead of speaking about it, they will feel the weight of oppression and do far worse things than merely talk about it.

You can't bully the world into becoming a better place. Those who try often make it a worse one.

EDIT: A question might arise where someone wonders "How can you be Christian yet love men?" Well, I personally believe the teachings of God should be interpreted for yourself, but if I just happen to end up in Hell, assuming there is one [Wow, I'm just a contradictory Christian, am I not?] then so be it, I'll accept my punishment.

I found a website that says the same thing you're saying (http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian).

But I must ask you, what do you make of:
Leviticus 18:22 (Old Testament example)
and
I Corinthians 6:9-10 (New Testament example)

What exactly is the "correct" way to interpret those passages?


@chewey: I'm fine with the idea of a theology class. If that's what gets creationism taught as well then so be it. I do however take offense to the idea of atheists teaching a theology class. One it's just illogical (it's like asking a gym teacher to teach Calculus) and two, there would be an incredible bias.

@chewey: I'm fine with the idea of a theology class. If that's what gets creationism taught as well then so be it. I do however take offense to the idea of atheists teaching a theology class. One it's just illogical (it's like asking a gym teacher to teach Calculus) and two, there would be an incredible bias.

I think having someone of -any- religion teach a Theology class would create far more bias.  Besides, you don't have to believe in a religion or faith to be knowledgeable about its rituals, teachings, and history.

Also Tsuno, thank you for that link, I'm going to hold onto it.

I was Christian; was because I don't like the idea of organized worship, or worship of any kind, in my eyes Religion is a way to tell people to stop being assholes all the time, and I feel that any higher power that should exist would appreciate me trying to live my life as a respectful, trustworthy person who does not persecute fellow man based on my own beliefs.  I believe there is something up there, but I don't believe in ritualistic worship.  I try to live my life as a good person, and I think that actually living it is a lot more sincere than sitting on a cold wood bench every Sunday and reading out of a book.  I might not know as much as biblical scholars, but I'm pretty sure that the bible says repeatedly to treat others as you would yourself, love thy neighbor, and not to judge others (considering it's not your job, it's God's according to the bible) unless you want to be judged yourself.

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of those accounts, btw.

My point, the bible tells people to be good people, to be respectful of differences and to accept people for who they are.  I appreciate the bible, and I respect the message it portrays, whether or not I believe in the contents of it.  So why it's being used to condemn people, judge everyone, and as an engine of hate against any form of cultural difference is beyond my comprehension.

So let me get this straight, you're telling us to exercise our right to free speech ... and tell the religious part of our country to STOP exercising their right to free speech?

Ok.

Honestly though, and I can't really speak for people living in other areas of my country, I don't see this "unintelligent" side of America at all. I never run into fierce opposition to gay marriage and religious evangelist here, and I'm at a CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY. The image of America that news networks like Fox and MSNBC paint aren't really accurate at all. You don't really know what it's like unless you live here, and even then you won't get the full picture.


addendum: Here at Duquesne University, a Catholic University, every student IS required to take a course on religion.
I took Religion East & West, where we studied Hinduism, then Buddhism, and then Christianity, and drew detailed comparisons between the 3. A Catholic University, teaching Hinduism? How about that, eh? The teacher even brought in guest speakers, like a for-real Buddhist monk to teach us how to properly meditate, and a normal Hindu guy, to show us that Hindu's are NOT radicals/terrorists, but rather just normal people like us.

So really, where is all this hate and religious prosecution? Because I'm really not seeing it.

Maybe you should just stay in your own country's business.

Maybe you should just stay in your own country's business.

This

So let me get this straight, you're telling us to exercise our right to free speech ... and tell the religious part of our country to STOP exercising their right to free speech?

Re-read what I said. Did I ever say that the religious part of America needs to stop exercising their right to free speech? No. I said "Fight to pass laws that prohibit hate propaganda in the media." This goes both ways. I never ONCE said that they, and ONLY they should be the ones prohibited from showing hate propaganda within the media.

Maybe you should just stay in your own country's business.

Excuse me for wanting to promote equality and tolerance in society. Fucking eat me.

Maybe you should just stay in your own country's business.

Excuse me for wanting to promote equality and tolerance in society.

This is an internet forum.

Maybe you should just stay in your own country's business.

Excuse me for wanting to promote equality and tolerance in society.

This is an internet forum.

Right. And that should stop me expressing my hope for a better tomorrow? I believe this forum is called Elitist Debate, arlen.

Oh no, express away. Though it sounds more like taking pot shots at a country you don't live in, to me.

So you're right. This IS Elitist Debate.

I never run into fierce opposition to gay marriage and religious evangelist here, and I'm at a CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY. The image of America that news networks like Fox and MSNBC paint aren't really accurate at all. You don't really know what it's like unless you live here, and even then you won't get the full picture.

There are plenty of people like that, trust me, I've run into my fair share

addendum: Here at Duquesne University, a Catholic University, every student IS required to take a course on religion.
I took Religion East & West, where we studied Hinduism, then Buddhism, and then Christianity, and drew detailed comparisons between the 3. A Catholic University, teaching Hinduism? How about that, eh? The teacher even brought in guest speakers, like a for-real Buddhist monk to teach us how to properly meditate, and a normal Hindu guy, to show us that Hindu's are NOT radicals/terrorists, but rather just normal people like us.

So really, where is all this hate and religious prosecution? Because I'm really not seeing it.

Nobody said it was everywhere, and I'm glad your University is open to things like that, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  Look at what happened in California with Proposition 8 being reversed.  There's a lot of crap flying around and it's disheartening to know that there are people so blindly against giving civil rights to someone because they're intrinsically different.

@chewey: I'm fine with the idea of a theology class. If that's what gets creationism taught as well then so be it. I do however take offense to the idea of atheists teaching a theology class. One it's just illogical (it's like asking a gym teacher to teach Calculus) and two, there would be an incredible bias.

It's not illogical. Clearly a person like me would impose some sort of bias against religion, but the government attempted to weed out people like me. The subject has been a success in its test schools and the teachers have not shown any bias. The point of a theology class is not to preach, but to teach the facts of religion. Religion is a pretty big part of history (whether this is a good or bad thing is up for debate), and so it makes sense to me to teach the facts of as many religion as possible. I think an atheist is probably best suited for a job like this, really.

There's a lot going on in here. Both on topic and partially off. Felt the need to pop my two cents in, however...don't mind me.

I personally believe that the US should just allow same-sex marriages, then leave it up to the individual churches to decide if they want to facilitate them or not. That way, everyone gets what they want. The church leaders who don't want it in their places of worship don't have to and the people who want to marry their same-gendered significant other can do so. I'm also all for teaching theology classes. I've never been to one, personally, and felt like being taught creationism alongside things like the Big Bang and evolution would be kind of strange. It belongs, in my opinion, next to other religious-type material. And Arlen, that you go to a Catholic school with that level of comfort with other religious ideas is amazing to me. I wish every person/school/state/country were that tolerant.

This topic has a lot that relates to me, for various reasons. I have friends and family in the LGBT community, as well of being part of it myself. Some of my family are fairly strict Christians who would have a lot to say to me before deleting me from their lives. I've had friends ditch me for it as well. I've been lucky enough to have friends who would stick by me and not really mind what path I'm taking, as well as a mother who, despite occasional "it's just a phase" rants, seems to have stuck by me through my telling her.

I've seen both sides of this argument and I remain surprised at how much people bicker over something that's so simple...love is love, no matter who it's between, and it will always be that way. Alienating people will do nothing but cause suffering for those you may least expect. My grandparents are vocal against the same-sex marriage movement. My grandmother went so far as to say she was ashamed of her home state for allowing it. All they have managed to do so far is alienate me further to the point where I'm afraid to talk to them.

There's also the issue of transgenders to think of. The argument against them, by most Christians, has been mostly "God made you that way for a reason." God also made many children with illnesses or physical deformities that are 'fixed' by medical science. Is that wrong as well? Is replacing a failing kidney or heart with a prosthetic one wrong? What about people who have been injured and had a limb amputated? Should they get prosthetic ones? Just because you don't understand the reason why someone is undergoing surgery doesn't mean they shouldn't do it. And using God as your basis, or YOUR unease with the idea, against them as a reason why they shouldn't doesn't make sense.

I remain surprised at how much people bicker over something that's so simple...love is love

I think that about what it all boils down to.

I agree with Arlen, as a Catholic, albeit barely practicing (I considered it divine intervention when I got sick the last time I went to church and ended up outside for half of it), but I barely hear of this religious zealously that a CANADIAN is telling us exists in the US.
Sure, it exists, I'm not denying it, however it should be noted that exactly as Arlen said, the US isn't just Fox News and the fact that you sum up an entire country in a so called Intelligent debate as being half smart and half stupid because they may be impartial, oppose or support gay marriage (33%?) is really quite annoying as a US citizen.

Anyhow, bullshit on Atheists teaching Theology. It should be taught by people who are actually interested in the subject itself for reasons other than opposing Religion.

Anyhow, bullshit on Atheists teaching Theology. It should be taught by people who are actually interested in the subject itself for reasons other than opposing Religion.

You haven't read a word I've said. It's very easy to find atheists who are interested in the subject itself - I'm one of them. You should know that theology is not about preaching religion. What it is about, is teaching history/culture and all that good stuff. It's not a question of whether God exists or not, so I don't see why an atheist would have any reason to oppose what's being taught at all. Do you honestly think the government would specifically hire these atheists AS TEACHERS if they thought these people would only give biased and uninformed opinions on the matter? No. They hired atheists to avoid bias entirely, since it seems much easier to them to find an atheist who has no preference for any one religion than finding a Christian who thinks equally of all religions.

I remain surprised at how much people bicker over something that's so simple...love is love

I think that about what it all boils down to.

And if religious people believed that love is all that marriage is about, then maybe they wouldn't oppose gay marriage Unfortunately, it's that very belief they oppose, so you might have a hard time. It seems a little pointless to say "if you defined marriage the same way we do, you wouldn't disagree with us!" - I am sure that most of the Christians who believe that love is the only or even the dominant purpose for marriage have no issue with gay marriage. (though then again, some of them are just bigots)

Also, I don't agree that atheists are any more likely to be unbiased than other religious people for teaching religion. I know more atheists who are disdainful of all religions than I do religious people who are disdainful of other religions. People who have faith in something are more likely to respect other people who have faith, even if their faith is in different things. I'm sure that there are plenty of atheists who could do a good job, but just from a statistical perspective I don't think they would generally do a better job.

I could never love a man enough to put my penus in his butthole.

And if religious people believed that love is all that marriage is about, then maybe they wouldn't oppose gay marriage Unfortunately, it's that very belief they oppose, so you might have a hard time. It seems a little pointless to say "if you defined marriage the same way we do, you wouldn't disagree with us!" - I am sure that most of the Christians who believe that love is the only or even the dominant purpose for marriage have no issue with gay marriage. (though then again, some of them are just bigots)

That's not entirely true Modern, gays have been killed by Christians because "god told me to" or just because they were gay at all, regardless of marriage state. 

It's just that marriage is the big deal here, that's what people are focusing on because it's what is being pushed.  This is a generalization and not to say it's true in all cases, but in general terms people who are against gay marriage are usually against homosexuality in the first place.

Well, maybe it's different in the States then. IDK but those people are dicks.

I could never love a man enough to put my penus in his butthole.

My dreams are shattered

I could never love a man enough to put my penus in his butthole.

My dreams are shattered

Everyone's are. ;-;

Sorry guys. I love you and all, but not in that way.

Don't worry, there's always mouths.

Poor Roph.

Thank you for dicking up my thread. Assholes.

This thread is still better than Canada.

Canada > US, jftr

Yeah, who wouldn't want to pay outrageous taxes, have terrible health care, have to wait years for the chance at getting a private doctor if you can even afford it, and live in the cold. :]

Yeah, who wouldn't want to pay outrageous taxes, have terrible health care, have to wait years for the chance at getting a private doctor if you can even afford it, and live in the cold. :]

Yes, like he said: Canada > US

Fuck the US!!

Yeah, who wouldn't want to pay outrageous taxes, have terrible health care, have to wait years for the chance at getting a private doctor if you can even afford it, and live in the cold. :]

Taxes in Canada aren't any more "outrageous" than taxes in the US.
>Implying Canada's healthcare is worse than USA's healthcare.
When you have public healthcare, you don't see a private doctor. That's the point...

Plus, in Canada, you have same-sex marriage and faster internet.

same-sex marriage and faster internet.

where can I apply for citizenship eh?

Move to Sweden instead, like me 

First move to a country in the EU that it's easier to get citizenship in. After that you have free access to all countries in the EU.

CUMMIN OVER ERE TEKKIN ALL ARE JOBS BAH

South Park is made by Americans.